Command

"It's command. Control is the ability to throw strikes. In the big leagues, everybody has control. Command is the ability to throw quality strikes. And when you add preparation to command, good things will happen." - Curt Schilling

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballMom10:
Hi All,

I have read many back posts regarding the necessity for a pitcher to "command" the pitches he throws. And that a good pitcher should command at least 3 pitches.

How do you define "command"?

Pitcher throws the pitch for a strike? The pitcher throws the pitch where he wants it, regardless of it being a strike or ball? At what percentage of the time? Or is it one of those things that you just know it when you see it?

It would seem that the definition of command might also change as a player gets older...

How do you measure it? Develop it? Teach it?

Just curious to see what everyone thinks...

Just to add to MTH's excellent reply...

Command can be defined as being able to throw the baseball to specific locations in the strike zone, while control can be defined as being able to throw strikes.

Command and control are derived from a repeatable delivery, consistent arm slot, and optimized timing of delivery. Work on your mechanics with a qualified instructor, long-toss to promote a consistent arm slot, and consider equal timing segments (leg lift to balance point "1", balance point to foot plant "2", foot plan to release "3"). These are some of the things that result in command and control but there are others (grip, focus, keeping the head still, etc.)

Hi,

Thanks for the help. 13 year old son has control of his pitches... working on command.

Probably closest to command with his 4 seam fastball, he can throw inside or out and change height.

Change up is more in the control category. He can throw it for a strike, but, he can hang it high in the zone which is not good. Arm motion and delivery of the change look to me to be the same as his 4 seam...

Knuckle curve can throw for a strike, but, it seems to have a mind of its own... It breaks down and also away from a right handed batter.

2 Seam: no control... rarely does the same thing twice.


So, when I catch for my son, this is what we do:

Alway work the 4 seam to locations. Pick one other pitch to work with as well. Throw a few change ups and then go back to the 4 seam and repeat.

I figured that all the other pitches need to work based off his 4 seam mechanics... Is this right?

Other suggestions on developing command?


Thanks,

PS. Son does go to pitching coach starting up in December.

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballMom10:
Hi,

So, when I catch for my son, this is what we do:

WOW you are quite a mom, I sure hope he thanks you a lot! I usually get this honor (and bruised shins)

On the 2 seam vs 4 seam it is probably how he grips the ball with so much variation between pitches…...sounds like he is gripping the two side seams and not across the horse shoe. Now that he is getting older I would think about canning the knuckle curve, they are great pitches for younger kids but once they move to 60’ they should focus on FB, CU and a traditional CB. He will have to mess with the CU grip that works for him, sometimes younger kids have better luck with a straight change grip because of smaller hands.

My son’s HS coach has them do bull pens with: 2 FB down and away, 2 FB down and in, 2 FB up and in, 4 change ups. Repeat. 3-5 times depending on day. Change CU to curve, and some from stretch as needed. He can also do a simulated inning or two once he gets command with you calling pitches and balls/strikes. At his age I would focus on FB and CU’s. Remind him if he cannot throw it for a strike in any count it is not a pitch!

BBMom -- My son is 15 now. He is a "soft-throwing" southpaw, who is enjoying success against Varisty competition because of his command of 3 pitches, and having learned how to change speeds, locations, and breaks to keep hitters off balance.

From the time he was a little guy, I have always told him that you always throw a ball with a purpose. Even playing catch, you pick a target, and aim to hit that target. Pet Peave: I hate seeing kids just tossing the ball back and forth without purpose. The smaller the target the better. "See" a spot on the glove about the size of a dime, and throw to hit that spot.

Southpaw started working with an excellent NPA (National Pitching Association) coach when he was 11. To help with command, his coach has always had him throw the same routine 3-1, 3-1, 5 & 5. This is 3 fastballs low & away from a righty. 1 up & in. 3 Fastballs low & away from a lefty. 1 up & in. 5 curveballs (some to each side ofthe plate). 5 Splitters (change-ups) to the arm-side of the plate.

In bullpens & pre-game he throws 3-1, 3-1, 5 & 5 from 30' on his knees; he repeats the routine from 45' in the stretch, locking down his back toe; he throws a little 70' step-behind alternating between FB and Splitter to get release (and get used to the distance); and then repeats 3-1, 3-1, 5 & 5 from the mound.

Lots of folks will have lots of good routines. The key is to find a routine that works, is arm-safe, and in which the player has confidence. I have instituted this with other kids I have coached, and have seen them all make substantial gains in command.

Best wishes to your young pitcher.

quote:

Pet Peave: I hate seeing kids just tossing the ball back and forth without purpose. The smaller the target the better. "See" a spot on the glove about the size of a dime, and throw to hit that spot.

Totally agree! To build on this idea of throwing with a purpose, always get the feet and hips involved, too. Even when throwing on the side. Don't just kick your foot out and throw. Get good hip action. Rotate your hips. Bend at the waist. Hit your throwing partner in the chest. All these things can help you get better.

Steven Ellis adds a great point. The great value of the "knee drill" I mention above is that it helps isolate the torso, making sure your pitcher is getting the proper torso and shoulder rotation going to deliver the ball as efficiently (and forcefully) as possible.

Lots of the instruction and drills we use have come from the Art & Science of Pitching DVD series and Online course offered by the NPA (www.nationalpitching.net). You might find these to be valuable resources. We certainly have, and the results are showing on the field.

Baseballmom10..

Have your son drop the knuckle-curve. That might work in little league but as he enters his high school years he needs to evolve. The problem with knuckle-curves, besides not being an advanced pitch that can he can carry to higher levels, it also seriously detracts from the most important pitch of all he needs: A fastball.

Your question was related to command. But I would work backwards and ask, "Command what?" The first "answer" to my question should be "A fastball". So start by concentrating on overall arm strength. I firmly believe a strong arm--throwing for velocity--is ultimately a function of good mechanics. And if you have good mechanics you should have control/command.

So have him learn to control/command the fastball. Then he can mix in a good curveball which his instructor can help him learn (no, it won't hurt his arm if thrown properly). I know others advocate a good change up first, but I don't and here's three reasons why not: 1) A good curveball acts like changeup anyway (change in speeds), and 2) Very few youngsters are capable of learning a good changeup at 13, and they just end up engraining bad habits. A good change should fade and sink, and that is hard to teach a young kid. So wait. 3) A lot of kids mistakenly slow down the throwing motion when attempting to throw a changeup. The motion shouldn't change regardless of the pitch so teaching a changeup too early could very possibly mess with his "repeatability".

But don't get me wrong.. eventually all good pitcher should have a solid changeup to get to the highest levels.

The translations of a pitcher's command and control
has traceable origins to the military, and specifically, the US Army.

Command means to dominate.

When applied to baseball, the pitcher has command, by dominating the hitters, the running game, and the opposing team's offense.

The skill of a pitcher's command, enabled
with his experience, knowledge, and situational
awareness, provides him the tools to successfully execute.

Control means to rule and feedback.

When applied to baseball, the pitcher has control by ruling the hitters. The pitcher's performance for his control is fedback to him by either the
hitter (swings & misses / hits) or the umpire (balls vs strikes).

Without control, there is no commmand.

Typically, a commanders (or pitcher) inablity to command, the Admiral (or Manager) will excecute his command (call to the bull-pen) for a replacement!

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
...Have your son drop the knuckle-curve.

... The problem with knuckle-curves, besides not being an advanced pitch....

....So start by concentrating on overall arm strength. I firmly believe a strong arm--throwing for velocity--is ultimately a function of good mechanics.

... A lot of kids mistakenly slow down the throwing motion when attempting to throw a changeup.

... The motion shouldn't change regardless of the pitch so teaching a changeup too early could very possibly mess with his "repeatability".

But don't get me wrong.. eventually all good pitcher should have a solid changeup to get to the highest levels.

-----------------------------
Today (as in yester-years) a pitcher dominated
the game with the following arsenal.
(or if you prefer, family of pitches)

- Father Fastball (and yes, I agree it remains #1)

- Uncle Charlie (and yes, there are two types of
basic grips, conventional and raised seams and
at the highest of levels)

- Sister Slider (or slidepeace)

- and lastly, yet not least, the
Mother Fricking change

Overpowering stuff to me means
Fastball - upper 90's with late movement
Slider - 85-89 with H&V tilt that misses bats
Curve - 7-11 off FB with late break & misses bats
Change - The hitters will let you know

It's been said many times, throw off-speed stuff for strikes. Fastball to spots. And your talent will stay around for a long time.

I have said (and well as many others) 1 inch of
movement on the baseball brings an equivalent
of +3 mph. (Shall we list all the contact type pitchers in the bigs?)

So there is much hope for those non-overpowering
guys with some family quality!

And yes, improving arm strength, hand speed, acceleration of the arm muscles, full range of motion, flexibility, and most important, deacceleration of the arm muscles (typically thru strong legs & core) are factors for repeatable mechancics, and longevity for playing and sustaining performance levels and at the desired
level of competition.

God blessed several with the tools to play this great game at the highest of levels, yet many of the non-tools guys have learned skills thru dedication and hard work.

Regards


postscript: Very few understand the meaning, preparation and sustainment of a 150+ games per year schedule!

Hi All,

Thanks for the comments!

BOF: I am an old fastpitch player and former high school coach. I have taken more shots off the shins than I care to think of...

Southpaw and BOF: Thanks for the pitch sequencing! This is what I was looking for.

Bum: We have discussed that he is outgrowing the knuckle curve, and plan on him learning a true curve this winter with his pitching coach. I don't mind him using the knuckle curve now and maybe this next year.... it is nasty and it may keep him from throwing an excessive amount of true curves... He is also working into Long toss and I am trying to get him to do the Throwers 10, though this is an uphill battle with him.

He throws his 4 seam hard. Never had a gun on him, don't know the mph, but, dang it has pop.

His change up arm motion doesn't change as far as I can tell... Same motion, same delivery, only changes the grip. He uses a large circle change... he has big hands and long fingers...
The change comes in as a strike with decent difference in speed, but, it doesn't fade or move much. The knuckle curve does that.

I really appreciate everyone being willing to talking/helping. Sometimes you think that you are doing things the best/right way, but, it really helps having others more knowledgeable to bounce ideas off of.

Why drop the knuckle curve? There are several major league pitchers throwing the knuckle curve. Mike Mussina is known to have a good curve ball and he throws the knuckle curve.

quote:

Originally posted by mm77:
Why drop the knuckle curve? There are several major league pitchers throwing the knuckle curve. Mike Mussina is known to have a good curve ball and he throws the knuckle curve.

Most kids do not throw them the way Mussina throws his. They are difficult to control and throw consistently. Better off sticking with the fundamental pitches that can be controlled. BUM is spot on - get a domniant FB first, then CU. Curve should be the last pitch added in HS.

BBMom10: He needs to mess around with his CU release to get movement. Have him try to pronate his wrist (thumb down) on CU release and it will develop more movement. He must get this pitch to work for him. BUM is also right can the knuckle curve, every time he messes with it he is taking time away from the important pitches he will need in HS.

quote:

Originally posted by Bear:
The translations of a pitcher's command and control
has traceable origins to the military, and specifically, the US Army.

Command means to dominate.

When applied to baseball, the pitcher has command, by dominating the hitters, the running game, and the opposing team's offense.

The skill of a pitcher's command, enabled
with his experience, knowledge, and situational
awareness, provides him the tools to successfully execute.

Control means to rule and feedback.

When applied to baseball, the pitcher has control by ruling the hitters. The pitcher's performance for his control is fedback to him by either the
hitter (swings & misses / hits) or the umpire (balls vs strikes).

Without control, there is no commmand.

Typically, a commanders (or pitcher) inablity to command, the Admiral (or Manager) will excecute his command (call to the bull-pen) for a replacement!

Regards

Bear, that was pretty good stuff!

I'd drop the knuckleball and begin working on the 2 seam and CU. JMO.

BOF, actually I advocate the FB first, the Curve second, and the changeup last, for the reasons I have stated above.

One thing I have noticed in college, though, is what I call the "baby slider". A lot of college pitchers throw it, and it seems to be largely effective. But when I see a true slider I get pretty excited.. what a great pitch.

I'm thinking, at least at the college level, there are MLB sliders and MLB curves thrown by a rare few. Then there are baby-sliders and slurves thrown by most. Just my thought.

Baseballmom10, one thing I have experienced, looking back, is a lot of pitchers (and parents of pitchers!) getting really excited about a silly "out" pitch, whether it be a BP change, a knuckle curve, a slurve, or a not-so-silly baby-slider. Don't get caught up in this nonsense. For your son to progress, I would suggest that his obsession should be with a dominating fastball. If he can command/control that fastball, and get high school hitters out with just that one pitch, he's got something!

So.. get obsessed with velocity! Then have him train to command/control his fastball.

A great high school pitcher can get anyone out with just one pitch.. a well located fastball. A great college pitcher can get anyone out with just two pitches.. a well located fastball and a breaking pitch he can throw for strikes. A great pro pitcher can get anyone out with just three pitches, a well located fastball, a breaking pitch he can throw for strikes, and a solid changeup that fades and sinks. IMHO.

I think Bum is on to something here, and has offered some solid advice. I would just like to add one thing, don't get too far ahead of yourself.

Will your player have what it takes to play HS ball? College ball? Or, beyond? Let's hope so; and it makes good sense for him to learn how to pitch with these goals in mind ... but the most important thing is for him to have fun.

I agree that the most important pitch for a young pitcher to develop is a great fastball. In a world dominated by radar guns, it is important to develop velocity. But in the pursuit of velocity, remember that a big part of how fast velocity will develop is genetic. You can gain a lot through proper training, but you will only get "fast" so fast.

We met a young man who was a top pitcher for Florida State a few years ago. He worked with my son at some camps the summer he turned 12. My son's velocity has always lagged behind his peers, but he has been well ahead with efficient, repeatable mechanics -- and command. With today's obsession on velocity, he had a coach at the time who would not pitch him much, throwing the harder throwers first (until they got in trouble).

This FSU pitcher told my son not to worry about his velocity, it would come in time. He explained to my son that he was always the slow guy on the staff until his junior year in HS, when he suddenly jumped up from the high 70's to the high 80's. In the mean time, he had learned to succeed by developing great mechanics, and hitting his spots.

Today, my son is a young HS sophomore, whose FB is in the low to mid 70's (depending on the day). He is pitching against juniors and seniors in the top Fall Varsity league in the region. He has just finished pitching a 3-game span where he is 3-0, 15.3 IP, 3 R, 1 ER, averaging approx 10 pitches per inning. In the middle of this stretch (the 2nd game) he threw nothing but his 2-seam fastball. He went out and told his catcher he was going to spot his fastball, and throw nothing else until they proved they could hit him. They couldn't do it.

Today, he is training to develop velocity, but he takes more pride in his ability to throw 3 pitches for strikes. He takes pride in his command, and focusses on getting 3 outs on the fewest number of pitches possible. Post game, it is the 1-2-3, 5-pitch innings he wants to talk about.

As his velocity continues to creep up, he is becoming all the more confident that he is the Hitters problem -- not the other way around.

Oh yeah -- he is having a lot of fun!

Here's to your young pitcher having lots of fun, and good success on the mound.

I agree with Southpaw. Mechanics are the most important issue in developing as a pitcher. The majority of guys I know who just concentrated on velocity are no longer pitching. Several had injury issues and the others were not well rounded with command over their pitches. Command over a pitch is the ability to control that pitch. Control is thye ability to place the ball where he intends it to go.
I just got back from watching my son pitch in the fall WS . After a frew minor adjustments last summer he was unhitable in the fall. He gave up 1 run all fall and that was a HR. He pitched 3 innings in the WS allowing 1 base runner. He was totally dominant again after the worst year he has ever had. It was all about bad mechanics. He has been using a cutter FB very effectively.
Once you learn how to throw a CB and FBs, you can become a balanced pitcher who can learn other types of pitches easily. It is much more difficult for a guy who throws FBs only to learn the feel it takes to throw a CB. CBs are developed by learning how to apply pressure to the ball by the index finger. This is very hard to master for a FB guy.
It was interesting to watch the freshmen. Many of them had only 1 pitch that they could command.

All great stuff for developing young pitchers. Just shows you there are many ways to get to where you want to go depending on the he development of a given pitcher.

I agree that good FB is so important that it must be the focal point for any pitcher. Lefty's have some leeway, but to succeed at the higher levels of HS ball and beyond you must have a dominant FB. (at least as a Righty) I was watching the game last night with my son and we both were amazed how the velocity bar is getting raised. All these young kids throwing mid 90's it was crazy.

I agree with BUM that young kids and parents get enamored with pitches that get the ball to move around - even if it can't be controlled. It's new and fun so they mess with them. It’s part of the learning process of getting a ball to move, but at some point you have to stop and focus on what you can throw for strikes.

BUM: I happen to favor learning a CU over a CB first. Young kids have success with a CB but they are always slow and loopy. Because they have success with them at younger ages some seem to stop focusing on the FB. I think you also need to develop physically to throw them properly, ex: my son’s CB is just now getting the hard breaking action needed, because his body is getting strong enough to throw it properly. I always worked with him to develop a good FB and a CU with the same mechanics (arm speed). If you can learn to throw those two pitches well coming into HS then the curve can be picked up in the freshmen season pretty easily. Your son obviously has had success so it worked for him, again just a personal preference.

quote:

Originally posted by bbmomx4:
what does it mean when a pitcher is told he has good projectablity and upside what exactly does that mean??

It generally means that said pitcher has certain traits -- like size, athleticism, mechanics, fastball speed, etc. -- that indicate he has good potential to reach some of the higher levels of the game down the road.

For instance, say a 15 YO pitcher throws in the upper 70s with good mechanics and one or both parents are tall or have an athletic build. A college coach or pro scout might say he's got good projectibility. It's simply an estimation of potential.