Comments on the U11 pitcher please !

Overall he looks very good, Two suggestions:
1. Take rocker step a little more back than to the side quite as much and
2. Make sure to tuck glove hand on follow through --"pinkie to the pit"
Otherwise he look like he may be a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by scissorbill:
Overall he looks very good, Two suggestions:
1. Take rocker step a little more back than to the side quite as much and
2. Make sure to tuck glove hand on follow through --"pinkie to the pit"
Otherwise he look like he may be a good one.

1. Why? A lot of pitchers use the side step for cleaner mechanics and a more consistent plant of the posting foot.

2. It's more like chest to the glove, not glove to the chest.

Need a lot of works.
1. Don't like the pitching arm actions, too many "extra moves" in it, that slows down the arm speed.
2.No proper use of leg and core strength, throwing without force. Instead of throwing hard, it looks like that he is trying to drop the ball into a bucket.

You really need to find a good pitching coach for him. JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by MTS:
2. It's more like chest to the glove, not glove to the chest.

I like that. I use that same instruction to our pitchers.

I think he looks very advanced for 11, and frankly you should keep him away from anyone who wants to make substantial changes to his mechanics. His arm action I would rate as excellent.

The only tip I could offer, and it is really a very minor point, is that when he pivots his right foot while raising his kick leg, the side of his right foot remains over the edge of the rubber. He should learn to drop his entire foot inside of the rubber so that the side of his shoe hits the rubber -- no part of the sole of the shoe should be in contact with the rubber at that point. It's possible he's only doing this on this clip because he's on an indoor mound, so check to see what his habit is when outdoors wearing cleats. In that situation, when the pit develops in front of the rubber he will need to assure he isn't teetering on the edge of the rubber as that can affect balance and therefore both power and control.

The only other thing I see is that he changes his delivery noticeably when throwing the change up. Some of the comments above I think picked up on these changes in his delivery without noticing that they all started when he changed to his change up grip. What he's doing here is curling his wrist, tilting his head, pulling off and not driving hard to the plate -- all things he's doing to soften the pitch. A better change up would duplicate fastball mechanics but simply rely on the grip to take 7-10 mph off.

But then, he's 11. That will come in time. For now, I will just applaud that he's learning a change up despite the fact that I would guess he could probably simply blow away most kids his age. I'm guessing that delivery, combined with his looking pretty tall for his age, probably generates upper 60's at this point?

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Strongly disagree with coachbwww.

... I'm guessing that delivery, combined with his looking pretty tall for his age, probably generates upper 60's at this point?

I guess Mr. Midlo Dad haven't seen a lot of 11 year old kids pitching for a long long time....The kid is apparently trying to emulate the guy in the big picture behind him. Although his form looks similar, there's no power in it.

M. Dad: Want bet? I bet his top speed should under 55 mph no matter how hard he throws. I would like Eric G to clarify on this. If I am wrong, then Mr. G: forget my comments, go with this kind of mechanics, and give me a call after 4 years, post a new vedio and his pitching speed.

I 've seen a lot of hard throwing 11 yr old kids, I know what I am talking about.

BTW, Eric, did you notice how long it takes his arm to launch from the open point to the release point? Arm speed generates pitching speed, Not noly I didn't see the "quick arm" snap, I saw he even paused a bit at the release point. Is this true or I am fooled by the poor vedio quality?

What gets me is all of the advice from a clip that I don't think anyone has downloaded and critiqued frame for frame. A lot of advice on what you think you see. Do the extra work. Save and edit the clip to an AVI or GIF, post it, and then give suggestions based on 30 or 60 fps. Anything less is a joke.

quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:
What gets me is all of the advice from a clip that I don't think anyone has downloaded and critiqued frame for frame. A lot of advice on what you think you see. Do the extra work. Save and edit the clip to an AVI or GIF, post it, and then give suggestions based on 30 or 60 fps. Anything less is a joke.

quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:
What gets me is all of the advice from a clip that I don't think anyone has downloaded and critiqued frame for frame. A lot of advice on what you think you see. Do the extra work. Save and edit the clip to an AVI or GIF, post it, and then give suggestions based on 30 or 60 fps. Anything less is a joke.

What?

How about we give suggestions and make comments as we see fit on what has become the most stagnant forum ever. Someone asks for comments on an 11 year old and you tell everyone "Do the extra work. Save and edit the clip to an AVI or GIF, post it, and then give suggestions based on 30 or 60 fps" ....otherwise its a joke?

What qualifies you to tell people there advice is a joke?

quote:

How about we give suggestions and make comments as we see fit on what has become the most stagnant forum ever.

You said it, not me.

I did not say peoples advice was a joke.

I said trying to give advice based on the current media presentation.............was a joke.

I put my services and time on the line from the very beginning, and it's the very first post from Pitching and Throwing. I offered members the opportunity to present quality videos to be analyzed by all members, not by me. I was offered that chance, but declined.

I know the value of 60 fps over 30fps, and I've been doing this a long time. I suppose people found the effort to present quality video was too much trouble.

My offer of 2 years has been ignored, and will no longer be available.

coachbwww,

Actually I have experience with both seeing and coaching kids when they were 11, who are now among the hardest throwers in America. I had no way of comparing them at age 11 with kids across the country, but in hindsight, I'm pretty sure they were way up there then, too.

I'm sure you know more than anybody, though, at least in your own mind.

But we can let Eric G tell us what kind of gun readings they've been getting on the boy, and we can see who got it right and who got it wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
coachbwww,............................................But we can let Eric G tell us what kind of gun readings they've been getting on the boy, and we can see who got it right and who got it wrong.

Yeah, let the betting bagin, this is going to be exciting. Any other offers? Guys? I bet the kid throw 55 mph, Milo Dad bets the kid throw upper 60's, that means 65 mph at least. Let's play the "speed is right". Come down here, Eric!

Eric, don't you tell me you never "gunned" the kid at age 11, if so, we will be very disappointed. Be honest, please.

Hey guys, someone asked for comments for an 11 YEAR OLD and you two big boys are arguing and taking bets about his velocity and another is saying that in order to give quality advice you have to present it in a different manner when maybe that person doesn't know how to do that?

This place is just getting riduculous.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Hey guys, someone asked for comments for an 11 YEAR OLD and you two big boys are arguing and taking bets about his velocity and another is saying that in order to give quality advice you have to present it in a different manner when maybe that person doesn't know how to do that?

This place is just getting riduculous.

TPM, I would like to hear your son's opinion on this kid. Your son is a pofessional pitcher. If he's not available, would you please post your comments? Do you think the kid pitched like your son or anywhere close to your son as a 11 year old?

Coach,
I don't really remember that was a long time ago, his delivery is not like the pitcher in the video. We didn't care about his velocity at 11 but we cared about his mechanics very much.

The best advice is to seek out a pitching instructor, not argue about velocity.

I wouldn't post a video of my 11 year old, youtube or no youtube on message board not knowing who is giving the feedback. But video is good to be able to go back and explain to the pitcher what he is doing right or wrong and can see it, I agree, with that. And it's hard unless it's broken down but Eric G may not know that, so the posters are giving advice on what they see, which can or cannot be helpful. This is a message board, you got to consider and understand the intended purpose, it's not for a p match.



JMO.

Actually, I'll concede a little ground.

I think this kid is capable of surpassing 65, but given that he apparently lives in a colder clime, it may be too early in the year to expect him to reach that. Maybe by June/July, though. Indoors in Feb. might be only 62/63.

My assessment of his capacity is also partly based on my thinking that this kid looks rather tall for his age, and he seems substantially bigger than Eric G's 10u player posted in another thread. That makes me wonder if he might not be one of those guys who would've been 12u not so long ago, before all the youth leagues moved their "aging date" from Aug. 1 to May 1.

Long ago, I found trying to predict velocity and/or velocity potential by analyzing player size, apparent effort exerted, mechanics, etc. to be highly inaccurate.

And at 11YO, I wouldn't be worrying about velocity. I would be focused on improving mechanics.

Eric,

My suggestion would be to work on his glove action. It appears he swings it rather than placing it out front with a controlled motion (more linear). This may allow him to stay closed a bit longer as it now appears his shoulders and hips are closely tied together. It would also promote taking his chest to the glove as mentioned by others. Another plus is he will be in an improved fielding position and better able to protect himself.

This kid looks like he has good mechanics! (and Midlo is basically right again). He does what I see alot of kids doing by not holding the glove hand far away enough from his body at the balance position. These kids are (usually the ones with natural athletic ability) learning that the pre break action / position helps create arm speed! The mistake with the glove hand follow through is also very common and is the result of the same thing - a player who has taught himself how to use his body to generate arm speed (and created a mild bad habit in the process). This kid is ready for a de-emphasis on mechanics and an emphasis on focus and concentration toward super accuracy and location pitching. Also, dont let him read this thread. Its just an indicator of how emotionally invested we are and how much information - sometimes bad - gets tossed around. Screwed up as it may be (per comments) - love the site.

Correction - hands (are together) not glove hand as mentioned in the second sentence. sorry.

Just so I am not confused Ted K He has common gloveside flaws but forget about mechanics because they are good

Thanks to all you guys! I have never had a gun on him, I think a parent along the way may have. I do not recall it ever being above 50 if that, last year as a 10 yo. I think he has picked up some velocity. He goes to a pitching instructor (not me), he is my deceptively bigger pitcher who struggles with velocity. I am not a guru on pitching but understand the basic mechanics etc but what do you do when you want to slightly change a few things yet you know the parent has shelled out dough to getting him lessons? I am going to post a couple other pitchers of mine and would love to keep getting your feedback, hope its not a bother guys!

Well, de-emphasize and forget are different terms, no? But, yea, my point is that exercises involving pitching accuracy are undervalued. I sort of sense a mocking tone to your question or are you really confirming my point of view? Is what I am saying that outlandish? Are you one of these guys who wants pitchers to pick up a flippin blade of grass on every follow through? Do you think that kid is gonna be thinking about accuracy or grass? Just curious. Wacky face thingy right back atcha!

Come on guys, do you really want to point a speed gun at your young pitchers? I wont even go into why I think that that is unhealthy. I will say that focus and concentration, the building blocks of pitching accuracy, are valuable skills that your kid or student can take with them into other areas of life. Anyone who wants some info on pitching accuracy is welcome to hit me up. Don't you think its time? Also, isn't telling your kid to "Just throw strikes" or "Just hit the glove", "Don't aim the ball", "Just play catch", a cop out and an admission of failure psychologically?

quote:

Originally posted by coachbwww:

quote:

Originally posted by Eric G:
I do not recall it ever being above 50 if that, last year as a 10 yo. I think he has picked up some velocity. He goes to a pitching instructor (not me), he is my deceptively bigger pitcher who struggles with velocity.!

MiloDad, I think I won the bet.

Ok Ted I'll play. Which comes first, don't solid mechanics produce accuracy ? Your de-emphasis IMO was non-sense. The young man has no real whip in his motion. Accuracy minus velocity = BP Fixing his glove action could also let him discover his core as a power source as it may help him find the hip / shoulder separation his motion lacks. Picken flippen grass blades must be a left coast thing, not a clue where you are headed there.

Somebody mentioned the picture in the background. The difference between the pitcher in the picture and the 11yo pitcher is that the pitcher in the picture has shifted his center of gravity (i.e. think "hips") forward a certain distance yet is still leading with the front hip. By the time the 11yo pitcher shifts his center of gravity forward an equivalent distance, the front foot is already well out in front. So, what the 11yo needs is more tempo/momentum. Of course, leading with the front hip further into the stride requires more core strength so an 11yo kid might not yet be able to do this well.

Leading further into the stride with the front hip and managing the glove side (i.e. making the glove arm momentarily mirror the throwing arm at front foot plant) will improve timing allowing the pitcher to delay shoulder rotation and get better hip and shoulder separation.

Excellent Roger Tomas (as usual) and Midlo always contributes some good facts.

Midlo, I believe that your explanation of plant foot positioning on the rubber needs a slight adjustment. Incorrectly maintained fields are what create:

1) a black part of the plate, "the black" and
2) such a huge hole in front of the rubber that kids have to put their foot in the hole

Both the rubber and home plate are supposed to be flush with the dirt. A correctly groomed mound will let the pitcher straddle the rubber both laterally and longitudinally so that when he drives forward the angle of the foot will help his drive toward the plate.

If there is a huge hole in front of the rubber, yes, you will have to put your whole foot in there. Also, if the dirt around home plate is not flush with the dish, yes, you will have some "black" to aim for. Try a tamp, a broom, a good rake, and one of those thick black mats (and maybe a tarp) for field maintenance. (Its really hard to aim for the black, partly because it sits on a parallel plane to the path of the ball.)

Yankee, I dont care to discount the importance of mechanics in pitching, which, despite your best efforts, is why I used "de-emphasize" instead of "forget"(your word not mine). That being said, I think that the mind is a powerful thing. If you want to hit your spot bad enough, the mechanics WILL follow. What I said was that I thought U11's mex were good enough to start focusing on accuracy. The blade of grass thing is just one of the dumb, distracting and confusing pieces of advice on mechanics that I have heard. We granola eaters are not immune to bad coaching out here on the left coast. Judging from some of the confusing tips Ive read here, It doesnt matter where you are from, baseball mythology is everywhere. I believe that depite good intentions, it is confusing and distracting our young players.

Ted, disagree if you like, but there will always be some drop off in front of the rubber. If it's perfectly flush when the boy goes out there, he'll likely dig it out himself before he starts. Having the rubber running along the side of the shoe, instead of under it, is inherently more stable. No one really pitches with the rubber under foot. At least, no one should.

I'm not advocating allowing huge pits to form, but I think you will find that every pitcher wants at least an exposed lip of the rubber to work the side of his foot against.

I don't think this is comparable to the "black" of the plate. Most plates have no black anyway. Those that do have it just for sight contrast. Whether it's covered with dirt or not is unimportant. It's not part of the strike zone under the rules, though it is true that some umps take it upon themselves to ignore the rules and call it as they wish.

Ted I find your "dream it and it will be" theory quite amusing. "If you want to hit your spot bad enough, the mechanics WILL follow" Please explain just how aiming for a spot teaches a player proper mechanics. Visualization is based on tangible past experience and is in fact an undertaught skill regarding pitching. IMO much of the accomplished pitcher's ability to locate is thru visualization. These players trust where the pitch will go based on past experience.

Yankee, you are a proponent of visualization but you value experience over consciousness. You are, in fact, an idealist and a materialist (or relativist) all at the same time. Thats called a "contradiction", my friend. And kudos to you for acknowledging the benefits of visualization, we definitely agree on that one. I am a bit confused, though and want to know more about how (for a high school ball player) to visualize, or what to visualize I guess would be the question. (spending waaaaay to much time here).

Speaking of confusing jargon, ya got it down Ted. I look at visualization as a kind of internal video replay of past performance. This would imply being taught the skill, success practicing the skill, then recall of the internal vision and feeling of "doing it right" Nothing more than setting a goal in your mind but a world away from "dreaming"

Yankeelvr,

I could not agree more. Everything you said is right on with me... Not only all those but the last statement is huge... "the feeling of doing it right". And the ability to lock that positive feeling in and repeat, not only the mex but the feel at release.... The good ones know if its a strike at release, better yet the good ones can feel when they miss the glove at release.

never threw a pitch at a high level where I didnt throw it in my mind in the split second prior to throwing it. For that matter, most DP's were visualized too. Not like your running a film in your mind, it happens in a blink of an eye..

I'm not saying that this young guy can't throw 60-65, but I can tell you that we very rarely (if ever) face any 11u kid that can throw that fast... We've played quite a few of the best teams in Central Florida... One of the guys on our team, a BIG lefty (kid wears a MENS LARGE pants at 11), throws as hard or harder than anyone we've ever faced (he unfortunately, more often than not, doesn't have the greatest control)... He tops out somewhere touching 58-62 from 50 feet when he's REALLY bringing it... Most of the time he's around 56-59...

As far as the kid in the video goes... He looks pretty good, but not as good or strong as the Logan kid in your other video...