Compartive Height & Weight

There are so many generalities here it can be tough to break this down, but I will give it a shot.

What constitutes a taller, heavier player as defined here?

I mean, should Ryan Freel, listed at 5-10, 185 be expected to hit for more power than Dustin Pedroia, listed at 5-9 and 180? By definition, Freel is taller and heavier than Pedroia, yet Pedroia has 9 HR while Freel has 0.

Now I don't think this is what Quincy meant here, and I think guys like Freel would fit into the same category. But what are the parameters here?

Would a guy like Dan Uggla, listed at 5-11 and 200, be considered a small guy or a big guy?

Here's a list that might clear this up a bit. This is how Baseball-Reference list these guys:

Top 5 HR All-Time:

Barry Bonds 6-1 228
Hank Aaron 6-0 180
Babe Ruth 6-2 215
Willie Mays 5-11 180
Sammy Sosa 6-0 220

Top 5 Batting Average All-Time

Ty Cobb 6-1 175
Rogers Hornsby 5-11 175
Joe Jackson 6-1 200
Lefty O'Doul 6-0 180
Ed Delahanty 6-1 170

Average Height/Weight, Top 5 HR: 6-.5 / 205

Average Height/Weight, Top 5 BA: 6-.5 / 180

Same height, 25 pounds heavier for the home run hitters.

Maybe height is not as big of a factor as weight when it comes to this. What should the paramaters be?

Quincy,

In another vein, why should it matter? I've coached some kids that were like Jimmy Wynn who played for Houston years ago. They called him "The Toy Cannon." I've coached some long and lanky players that have tremendous pop. However, I'd suggest to you that in a lot of recruiting circles, height and weight are important. Especially, the lack of height. I can recall driving one Sunday morning to speak to a well known college coach about two of my players that he showed no interest in. They were the real deal. His answer was that he wasn't interested in players their size. One went on to set a lot of pitching records at Notre Dame. He had a cup of coffee in the majors. The other went on to be an All-American at Memphis State and played a couple of years in the Majors. I guess their size wasn't that important after all.

(BTW, side story on this day. I drove down to this school and arrived at dawn. I left my lights on. Therefore, I came out of this meeting to a car with a dead battery, no way of contacting anyone for help and had a very long walk. Everytime I read how great this coach is, I think about that day.)

Jimmy Wynn and the Houston Colt 45's, great memories.

19 year old Rusty Staub

Today, if a coach had to choose between Frank Howard and Yogi Berra, Berra would be told to take a hike.

Should a 6'5" and 250 pound batter produce better power numbers than the average six footer? ( or a 5'8" Yogi Berra)

Quincy,

Frank Howard hit 382 HRs in 6,488 at bats, and was a .273 life time hitter.
Yogi Berra hit 358 HRs in 7,555 at bats, and was a .285 life time hitter.

Seeing that Frank Howard wasn’t ever a catcher, he wouldn’t have taken Yogi’s spot on a roster. However he did have a lot more power! I would think you would want them both on your team.

BTW, the longest homerun I have personally witnessed was hit by Frank Howard in the Minor Leagues.

So it appears that the taller, heavier player is expected to produce adequate power numbers to justify his contract.

Since the average MLB type ball player is in a range from 5'11 to 6'2", minor leaguers, high schoolers and college players taller than average hoping to make the Bigs should develope their home run swing.

I can tell you from first hand experience that even most youth coaches are looking for size.

I know a division one coach and he says the two things you cannot teach are size and speed.

My son will likely not exceed 5'6-5'10". I tell him that his size should never be an excuse. He is 12 and a little taller than 4'11".

The comment about Yogi Berra though is right on!

Go and review most D1 programs and their rosters and there are very very few kids under 5'10". Check out PGs ratings. It was a real eye opener for me.

The Lord only makes so many Brian Roberts and Yogi Berras.

For better or worse, it appears that to the baseball folks that matter size does matter.


Bill

Shorter, lighter players actually have an advantage over taller heavier players.

The standard expectation of the taller, heavier player is a .250 or better average and at least 20 home runs.

The smaller, lighter player can get by with hustle, speed, defense, occasional power (10 home runs), average above .250 and a good attitude.

As has been demonstrated in the past, even the 5'8" player (with a good smooth swing) can generate average to above average power numbers.

There has always been a truism in baseball that "a Big Man should hit like a Big Man" (Dave Kingman, Frank Howard, Boog Powell) or they will not succeed.

A 'Big Man' cannot get by with 'Little Man' numbers.

The "big man" is in the big leagues because he has power and for the most part less adept at defense and base running and THAT is why he can't put up "little man" numbers. The little man can't even get a look if he has the average defensive skills, arm, lack of speed that many of those "big men" had and still have. The "big man" actually has less expectations IF he has power (Adam Dunn for example) and less work to do on his total game. I would go as far as saying a player with Power, can get by with having only that one tool if he can put up 40+ a season in HRs. The tough job is for the GM to keep a good balance of speed, power, defense, average, and Pitching. Guys like ARod are very rare.

A few years ago three players tied the Florida High School home run record of 19.

Height.......Weight

6'7".........275
6'0".........185
6'1".........195

One showed no interest in living the minor league life style. Chose college.

One recieved notice due to a well recruited teammate. Drafted.

One recieved no interest. D-2 ball player.

I'm watching to see if the 6'7" ball player joins the baseball team at some point in his college years.

Q-
Are you playing the size-card?

Who is the 2nd baseman for the Red Sox?

You are looking at so little info (aspects) for your conversation... did size of bat ever come up? There is a thing called momentum... range of motion at the hip joint vs. shoulders? degree of torque? muscle fibers? anything besides ht/wt??

that was as empty as saying if you are 6' 230, that you are overweight/obese... u prob are if you have a 44" waist... but what about the guy who has the 33" waist with same ht/wt?

Be glad this discussion was not done in a paper as you were trying to achieve your Masters or PhD.... it would have been thrown out for a lack of pretty much everything.....

make a note that prior to the steroid era, 42 of the top 50 HR hitters of all time weighed less than 190...

My thinking is that first impressions are lasting impressions.

If I see a tall player, my first thought is first base, .at least .250 avg. with power (20 HR's)

I see a short guy, I think infield (except first base), .290 or better avg. with occasional power.

I see an average size player, I consider the five tools.

The player who hits or fields or both above the norm is the star.

The specifics of how the player produces are adjustable (bat size, place in batting order, etc.).

well.... when i see a "player" he is a prospect (no matter ht/wt) until he proves different...

tall guy 1st base? not here in Texas... yeah that makes for a nice 1st baseman to have some height, but we have plenty of high schoolers who are 6'3" plus playing ss/3b/of...

ever hear of Matt Sulentic? About 5'9 160 pounds... OF... 2006 3rd round pick out of high school in Dallas, TX. Dropped about 19 bombs in a 30 game season playing in the heart of Dallas... just have to make sure you have some ability and are getting the right instruction...

Note to everyone: Don't let your coaches set your ceiling/potential in this game... too much of that going on... not enough kids reach their overall potential due to lack of proper coaching/instruction, not because of lack of ability...

too many coaches use their "first impression" of you to limit you out... find another coach, them prove your old coach wrong!

He's listed as 5'10" so he falls into the average range.

You seem to agree.

he's 5'9 at best. was prob actually 5'8 coming out of h.s. i know him i had him all through high school....

bottom line, you set parameters on players before truly evaluating them... i guess it is a good thing you are not a professor in college... you might notice that certain students are football players and assume they are stupid and fail them....

know your job, do your job!

glad to see you took time to check him out... go check out German Duran... same thing... maybe 5'9... had him since he was a freshman in h.s... made debut this year with Texas Rangers...

thank goodness i didn't give up on him because of his height weight....

kevin thompson is another.... the list goes on and on....

You seem to think that I'm knocking the below six footer.

I've been promoting the below six footer as well as the stylist pitcher over the fire baller.

Be careful not to take credit for their ability. Some coaches and instructors make that mistake.

Ability is a physiological aspect... so taking credit for that would be rediculous and impossible..

I take credit for not thinking that "my first impression was a lasting one..." and that I treat all my clients the same and don't try and tell them where their "limit" is going to be in the game because of ht/wt, tools, etc... they will suprise you a lot of the time if you give them the chance...

bottom line: I try and get my players to reach their potential (for that given point in time) and not hold them back...

thank goodness players like Jamey Carroll didn't have a coach that allowed his "first impression" to guide him in to being a horse jockey or something...

Keyword I think is 'clients'.

I look at players. I ask them what position/positions they play. I give them opportunity to play where they choose.

In the event their chosen position is better handled by another player, I determine a secondary position for players and then offer playing time.

It isn't about giving up or limiting a player, it's about playing the game effectively.

I have some unconventional thinking in player placement. For instance, I don't expect a shortstop to be a good second baseman. The movement is different. Some players move better in one direction better than another. Also, I like to see all outfielders throw to determine the best arm to put in right field. If their natural movement is well suited for right, cool, if not maybe center or left.

Giving opportunity is sometimes better than giving instruction.

It should never be about limiting a player's development.

quote:

It should never be about limiting a player's development.

Amen.