Conflicting Instruction

How open minded is the HS coach? If your son is more comfortable with drop and drive then he needs to do that. If he's open minded then should be no harm no foul but if he's not then there is a problem.

I hate teaching everyone to do the same thing the same way. It's the coaches job to know enough about everything he can help a D and D guy plus work with a T and F to help them.

Hate to say this but you may just have to tell your son to deal with it. Do the T and F best he can but really work with the D and D guy.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
How open minded is the HS coach? If your son is more comfortable with drop and drive then he needs to do that. If he's open minded then should be no harm no foul but if he's not then there is a problem.

I hate teaching everyone to do the same thing the same way. It's the coaches job to know enough about everything he can help a D and D guy plus work with a T and F to help them.

Hate to say this but you may just have to tell your son to deal with it. Do the T and F best he can but really work with the D and D guy.

I agree with what you are saying if it was hitting, but it is very difficult to try and change mechanics daily. I think we would have to know more about the situation to give perfect advice, but if you try to alternate the two based upon who you are throwing with, I can see it leading to inconsistencies, and possibly, injury.

Have you used a radar gun to measure his FB speed with each method?

Which method produces the most movement on his pitches?

Which method is used by most college/MLB pitchers?

Welcome to the realities of HS baseball…. My son went through the same thing. In the end he needs to develop a style that works for him and learn to communicate with both coaches and take the best ideas from both that fits his style. Most HS coaches are not going to try to remake a delivery and will work with what each player brings. He may have to tell the HS coach that his pitching coach has suggested he do “fill in the blanks” and be able give him the reasons. Long term this will help your son learn to communicate with adults and grow as a player and person in the process and probably help him understand his mechanics a little better.

Which coach watched him pitch and throw before making changes to his mechanics? Which does he feel most comfortable with? Which type of delivery did he use before. If he was having success before, why is he going to a pitching coach? If he was not having success before, what was he doing and is he doing better now? These are some things I would ask. Paying for instruction should have nothing to do with it.

I realize in the perfect world each of these coaches would have seen him many times in game situations prior to giving instruction. And even then they would try to accomodate his particular style. In my experience, however, coaches typically teach what they believe, and I realize that is the way it is unless you are fortunate to be working with one of the very best. Neither of these guys are "his pitching coach" just coaches he is being exposed to. I have put him in this situation as the D&D guy offers many opportunities for development as far as strength & conditioning as well as a good mental workout. The other guy just comes with the HS program. Thank again for any help.

It would seem to me that whichever works best.. as far as throwing strikes and getting batters out is what your boy needs to stick with. I'm sure coach is mostly worried about that too in the end.

D&D style works for him as he is a LHP and this style best fits his current stretch moves. He's been taught to drive the lead knee to the back shoulder there by never "crossing" the rubber with his foot and allowing him to pick or go home on each delivery. T&F guy wants internal rotation. Hoping to find some suggestions on how son can talk it out with the HS guy while not appearing to be less than coachable.

Yankeelvr,

I've read through your post and those that have contributed. As BOF points out...welcome to the realities of HS baseball. Most of us have had to deal with something like this somewhere down the line. My oldest son has been going to the same pitching coach since he was 11, and we stuck with that pitching coach for so long (throughout HS and elite travel teams) because my son was comfortable with him, and he got results. Other pitching coaches were offered, but we stuck with our guy. My oldest son is 19 and a college freshmen now, but my middle son (16) is picking up where my oldest son left off. Again, it is comfort and results that makes my middle son want to work with the same pitching coach.

I personally believe continuity and stability are important. This is a case where you & your son have to agree on the best and most comfortable way of doing things, and stick to it. I would be up front and honest with all concerned and tell them the direction you want to go. If your son is uncomfortable delivering the message, maybe you should step in to set expectations and direction.

Good luck!

quote:

Welcome to the realities of HS baseball…. My son went through the same thing. In the end he needs to develop a style that works for him and learn to communicate with both coaches and take the best ideas from both that fits his style. Most HS coaches are not going to try to remake a delivery and will work with what each player brings. He may have to tell the HS coach that his pitching coach has suggested he do “fill in the blanks” and be able give him the reasons. Long term this will help your son learn to communicate with adults and grow as a player and person in the process and probably help him understand his mechanics a little better.

This can be an extremely difficult situation for all concerned.I agree with BOF that most HS coaches are not going to try and completely remake a HS players mechanics, especially the upper classmen. I also agree that it is important for your son to learn how to communicate with both his HS coach and his instructor so that somehow, despite differences in some philosophy, they can find common ground in helping him develop.

quote:

I hate teaching everyone to do the same thing the same way. It's the coaches job to know enough about everything he can help a D and D guy plus work with a T and F to help them.

I think Coach2709 kinda hit that nail on the head in that you can't,or should not, take a rubber stamp approach in teaching, either as a HS coach or an instructor. It's important to try an evaluate each individual athlete based on what they are or are not doing and what kind of results they are getting, ie:

quote:

Which method produces the most movement on his pitches?

Movement, velocity, ability to locate, past results(success?) I would also add to the list your son's own individual level confidence in using either D & D or T & F. If he's not comfortable, it's really difficult to have any confidence in what your doing and as a result movement,velocity, ability to locate, results and consistancy, will suffer.

I think your son, somehow, needs to be able to communicate to both his HS coach and instructor that there is a difference in philosophy being taught and he is confused by it. I know this is not an easy task for a young man to handle but he may find by doing it a whole lot more peace of mind, and in the long run find out that he can learn something, even one small thing, from just about everyone. Major league pitchers are not cut from one single mold. It just does not work that way. We have been given individual gifts and talents that should be used in an individual way. Instruction and information we receive to develop those gifts are for that purpose. I think individual philosphies sometimes have a way of getting in the way of that.

Have your son try to soak up as much instruction and information that he can, communicate with all concerned, and then use common sense in determining what works for him. I wish you the best.

fenwaysouth......

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
D&D style works for him as he is a LHP and this style best fits his current stretch moves. He's been taught to drive the lead knee to the back shoulder there by never "crossing" the rubber with his foot and allowing him to pick or go home on each delivery. T&F guy wants internal rotation. Hoping to find some suggestions on how son can talk it out with the HS guy while not appearing to be less than coachable.

You seem to be favoring an approach that gives him the best pick-off move?

What attribute(s) gives him the best shot to get to the next level, a deceptive move to first, or increased velocity to the plate?

Without debating D&D vs. T&F; agree that this is a good opportunity for your son to begin learning the lessons of diplomacy. He doesn't need his H.S. Coach to get to the next level but better to have him with you rather than against you.

Here's the way I look at it. During tryouts I'm going to see if the kid has any ability or not. If he does then I'm going to talk to him and find out what he's done in the past in terms of learning and who he's went with. Then I take what I'm going to teach him and suit it to what he already knows. Maybe I can teach him something new that will build on what he knows but overall I don't want him to go backwards by learning something totally different that he already knows.

If I see a kid during tryouts who has potential ability but I can tell he's had no training then I'm going to build and create based on what I want him to be. He's a lump of clay that I can mold and shape into a player.

Guys have been exposed to baseball before they come to me. Some know what they are doing (or at least have an idea) and some have no earthly idea about what they're doing. It's my job to make them better than where they are when I do get them.

In my experience with private coaches it actually went backwards. I got the kids first and put in what I wanted and then they went out and got private coaches at a baseball business school place. I cannot express how great those guys were in tailoring what they taught to what I already taught them. They didn't try to rebuild / reteach anything because they knew their jobs as teachers of the game was to build on what they already knew.

In a perfect situation a coach and private coach will show the kid that what they are doing is correct and just get more practice at it. I tell my guys all the time there are many ways to play baseball and as long as I know it's a legitimate way that helps the team and themselves they can do it however they want. I don't want robots - I want players.

Sadly some situations ends up with an ego problem on one side or possibly both sides. Hopefully that's not the case here and the player can talk to the HS coach and work it out. If not then it's something he's going to have to overcome. In the long run it will make him a tougher player mentally which will help him as a player overall.

The ability to control the running game is fairly important ... I don't see that changing his approach would increase velo any more so than refining what seem to be his natural tendencies. He isn't a big kid, 5'9" about 140 and sits right around 80 mph as of last summer. Works fast, and in an aggressive manner on the mound. I do believe his best chance at getting where he wants to be (college baseball) would be through working with what he has already developed with refinements and repetition. As a sophomore this year he has a bit of time.

Well put coach, unfortunately kids sometimes have to deal with ego’s on from either coach depending on the situation. In retrospect my son grew from the conflict experience as he had to pull his HS coach aside and have a good one on one with him and in the end they understood each other better and became much closer. The problem in these situations (like many others in HS) is that dad’s have a tendency to try to inject themselves into the equation and things go from just a little messy to complete disasters.

This is off subject, but I would not be messing with delivery types to better hold runners. The most important aspect to holding runners is to learn to hold at various lengths of time, the longer the better, as well as an adequate TTP.

I guess we've been lucky. My son has been seeing the same private instructor since he was around 9 or 10. He's 17 now. The instructor works for a MLB team, so he is only around November or December until February. Therefore, my son gets a lot of in season feed back from his HS and summer team coaches. Because my son has been seeing his private instructor for so long, I have a pretty good idea of what to look for in my son and what his tendencies are. I haven't talked to any of his summer team or HS coaches to tell them how to instruct him, but I do ask my son what the feedback of his coaches is. I have yet to have a situation where they are teaching him something I don't think he does need to work on. None of them have tried to "rebuild" him.

I like the way coach2709 handles things. If a kid has ability and is effective, there should be no reason to rebuild him. No pitcher ever has everything perfect. There always tweaks to be made or adjustments to work on. I think a good pitching coach will work with what a kid has and tweak the delivery to become more effecient.

It bothers me when I hear stories about a kid who has been an effective pitcher and another coach tries to rebuild his delivery from scratch for no other reason than that is the way they do it. I think they are asking for trouble.

A radar gun coaches my son. Try something, if it's faster, it stays.

/ thought I would drop a bomb here

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
The problem in these situations (like many others in HS) is that dad’s have a tendency to try to inject themselves into the equation and things go from just a little messy to complete disasters.

This is off subject, but I would not be messing with delivery types to better hold runners. The most important aspect to holding runners is to learn to hold at various lengths of time, the longer the better, as well as an adequate TTP.

BOF thanks for the advice so far, especially in your previous post. Just so this doesn't stray too far...my son came to me with his concerns. He takes the lessons, attends the workouts, etc... my involvement in these things is taxi service :<) I do agree you don't pick a pitching motion based on holding a runner, however if it is a fringe benefit, so much the better. Conversly, change for the sake of change isn't always a great idea either. For what it is worth, I pitched as well and was a T & F guy but I can recognize this may not be the path to his goals.

You said that D&D was what he was most comfortable with and he is having success with it. That is where I would stay. I agree with coach2709, when I evaluate a pitcher I look at what he does first without saying a word. I then look to refine or tweek that delivery to make it more efficient and effective. The only time there is a need to completely change something is when a kid is doing something that could harm themselves. I do not want any of my kids to get hurt. Otherwise, different styles on a staff is what makes a staff effective. I do not want my guys to look or throw all the same, I love it when a guy has a little different style to offer. I recommend that the player go to the coach and explain that this is how he has been pitching for a while and is comfortable with it. Let the coach know he would like to stay with that style to be most effective, and ask the coach what areas of concern he has with his motion so that maybe he can work in those areas. I firmly believe, if it ain't broke...don't fix it.

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The ability to control the running game is fairly important ... I don't see that changing his approach would increase velo

Your stated that one approach game him a better move to first, the other instructor wanted more "internal rotation."

Not sure I understand what he/you mean by "internal" rotation but I think of "enhancing" use of the hips which is an integral part of improving velocity.

The best way to control the running game is to keep runners off base while learning pitches to get hitters out. A great move to first base wouldn't be my primary consideration when considering which method to adopt ........... and I'm sure it's not yours either but you did ask.

Tom Seaver = Drop and Drive.

It worked for him JUST fine.

Seaver looked a lot different than some other pitchers.

I read Leo Mazzone's paperback book on tall and fall and he had a lot of good things to say about it.

I wish I understood more about this. It seems to me that the basic difference between the approaches is really in the length of the stride? Right? Beyond a certain % of your height (or maybe leg length would be a better measuring standard), you are by definition a drop and drive pitcher. Striding less than some certain % of your height makes you a tall and fall, doesn't it?

And how about if your arm slot is low 3/4 as opposed to high 3/4. Does this affect what is optimal?

To me, as an untrained pitching observer, I'd say the skinnier you are, the more likely tall and fall is going to fit you better. As your thighs get stronger and more powerful, maybe drop and drive applies.

I never hear anyone discuss this stuff with reference to the natural variations of the different bodies that are doing the pitching. It seems to me that if an instructor can't do that with some honest dialogue, maybe he doesn't "really" know what he is talking about. I don't mean he can't get good results. I mean he may only be able to get them from some pitchers and not others.

PS. There is the oft repeated story of Randy Johnson improving his control after Nolan Ryan and Tom House got him to land more on his foot and less on his heel. To me, this sounds like a shorter stride, and a dial-down towards the tall and fall end of the spectrum from wherever he was.