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26 replies

Contact w/catcher on a play at home

meachrmmeachrm100+ posts
This happened in our game yesterday and I'm curious to get some other umpire perspectives...
Base hit and there is going to be a play at the plate. The throw is going to be slightly up the third base line about 5 feet. The catcher moves up the line a bit and positions himself in the path of the runner - think of a basketball player setting his feet wide for a charge. If the runner slides, he'll never reach home plate. The catcher is 6'6" and takes up a huge part of the runners path. If the runner tries to go around him, it will take him a lot longer to get to the plate and he will probably be out. The runner moves a little to his right and bumbs the catcher's shoulder with his. As the catcher and runner are falling down, the ball arrives and the catcher cannot handle it. The runner gets up and touches home plate. The HP ump calls time and walks out to confer with the base ump. I hear him say that he is calling the runner out for contacting the catcher. I flip and the base ump says "let us talk about it." 15 seconds later, they separate and say "no call, runner is safe." I talk to the HP ump between innings who still thinks the runner should have been called out. My argument was that the catcher did not give the runner any path to the plate and that he cannot block the runner 5 feet up the line without the ball. It was not a case where my runner went right for the catcher to drill him. There just wasn't anywhere for him to go.
What do you think the call should be?
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Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
First, not being there, we have to give an opinion on a onesided argument. That said, it sounds more like obstruction on the catcher to me, if all that contact truly happened before he got the ball.

The amount of contact, in your version, doesn't rise to the level of malicious contact. If it had,it would have "over ruled" the obstruction call.
meachrmmeachrm100+ posts
Thank you for your reply. Clearly there is a gray area there and some judgement is involved as to the intent of the runner and the nature of the contact. I'm ok with an umpire not agreeing on the interpretation of what we saw. That's going to happen. The umpire just seemed to imply that contact in and of itself was all that was needed to call the runner out. Certainly the rule is there to protect the catcher. I just didn't know if my argument was a legitimate one. Thanks again.

BaseballByTheYard
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by meachrm:
Hey Jimmy03,

Let's say you were me and the play happened as I described it above but the runner was called out. If you wanted to respectfully argue the runner being called out, what angle would be best to take and/or what would you say?

BaseballByTheYard


Well, first I'd recognize that this was a judgment call and the odds of getting it changed are slim to none.

I'd request time and slowly approach the umpire. Speaking in a calm and somewhat soft voice to draw him in closer, I'd concentrate my questions on the catcher's actions and ask that since he did not have the ball, yet was blocking access to a base, wasn't this basically obstruction? I'd continue to focus my questions on the catcher and try to keep the conversation focused on rules application and avoid any discussion about his judgment of my runner. I would then ask politely if he would mind checking with his partner about my understanding of the rule and state that whatever they decide is fine, I'd just like to make sure I am understanding things correctly.

I would not press him, I would not get loud, I would not get angry and I would not expect to get anywhere. But if I did, I would thank both of them for taking time to get the rule correct.
Last edited by Jimmy03
jjkjjk500+ posts
quote:
The runner moves a little to his right and bumbs the catcher's shoulder with his. As the catcher and runner are falling down, the ball arrives and the catcher cannot handle it. The runner gets up and touches home plate. The HP ump calls time and walks out to confer with the base ump. I hear him say that he is calling the runner out for contacting the catcher. I flip and the base ump says "let us talk about it." 15 seconds later, they separate and say "no call, runner is safe." I talk to the HP ump between innings who still thinks


Agee with JO3, never flip, it shows a lack of repect for the game, your team, the umpire, set's a very bad tone for any ensuing negotiations.

Then some preventive coaching; tell your players, "hey we lucked out on that one (whether you believe that or not), remember you are required to "attempt to avoid".) Remind them that they will be protected via OBS if the umpire deems the catchers actions to have inhibitated their ability to reach the plate. Let blue be the enforcer not your baserunners.

When you say your runner moved to his right, it sounds like he initiated the contact? I wasn't there and would love to be a fly on the wall during the U's conference. Did the more experienced guy talk PU into the easy way out or did he actually see something that changed PU's mind? Guess we'll never know.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TurnTwoNet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:


I would not press him, I would get loud, I would not get angry and I would not expect to get anywhere. But if I did, I would thank both of them for taking time to get the rule correct.


Jimmy - I trust you mean that you would NOT get loud!

Big Grin


Yes, thank you for pointing out my error. Sometimes I think faster than I can type.

I fixed it in the post above.
H Harv100+ posts
The "obstruction rule" is not there to protect the catcher. Its there to protect all involved as below pro level we want folks to live past the play.

Jimmy03 has problems ever saying an ump was wrong but the facts are many defensive players are taught, or are used to intimidating, to get in the base path regardless if one has the ball. One sees a 1st baseman blocking first all the time with his foot on lead offs. One sees catchers getting in the basepath all the time, without the ball at amateur levels. The facts are this doesn't occur much on the professional level because its poor baseball and risks injury.

On first, 1st baseman who habitually makes the runner "go around his foot" to get to back to first I speak to the umpire. If the umpire doesn't believe this is important then we revert to plan "B" which I learned over 40 years ago and have had reinforced many time. Go back early and kind of rake the first baseman's ankle with your spikes or step on his foot. He'll learn good baseball very quickly. The fact is the umpire causes this type of ugly behavior because he won't caution, worn of penilize poor baseball that risks injury.

On home, catcher blocks any part of the outside of the basepath without the ball, obstruction pure and simple. NFHS and college don't want collisions. The ideal is a PU will recognize this and the runner, deflected from his normal path to the plate, perhaps the runner should know an outside slide and use it. But he should be able to "pull up" and claim obstruction if he has to deviate from a normal path to the base, i.e.....go around the catcher outside of the base path.

Ideally the catchers sets up between the lines in front of HP and put his glove in the base path after he's caught the ball. This is what good catchers do unless its the potentially final play of the last game of the season.

A runner should, at the HS level, be able to "pull up" or just haul of of the basepath when the catcher is over the line without the ball and should be called safe by obstruction.

Any umpire not doing this, not calling obstuction, is not following the intentions of the current rules and allows a significant risk of intimidation and injury. He's inviting the "train wrecks" so mentioned.

My guess, having exchanged views with old Jimmy03 on other threads is he'd disagree but I bet he calls a batter/runner out quite quickly on a double play because the lead runner into second obstructed the middle infielders trying to turn two....because he can interject himself into the game that way.

My view is old Jimmy03 needs to discuss his views with equally qualified memembers of his profession while holding an open mind.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Harv:
The "obstruction rule" is not there to protect the catcher. Its there to protect all involved as below pro level we want folks to live past the play.

Jimmy03 has problems ever saying an ump was wrong but the facts are many defensive players are taught, or are used to intimidating, to get in the base path regardless if one has the ball. One sees a 1st baseman blocking first all the time with his foot on lead offs. One sees catchers getting in the basepath all the time, without the ball at amateur levels. The facts are this doesn't occur much on the professional level because its poor baseball and risks injury.

On first, 1st baseman who habitually makes the runner "go around his foot" to get to back to first I speak to the umpire. If the umpire doesn't believe this is important then we revert to plan "B" which I learned over 40 years ago and have had reinforced many time. Go back early and kind of rake the first baseman's ankle with your spikes or step on his foot. He'll learn good baseball very quickly. The fact is the umpire causes this type of ugly behavior because he won't caution, worn of penilize poor baseball that risks injury.

On home, catcher blocks any part of the outside of the basepath without the ball, obstruction pure and simple. NFHS and college don't want collisions. The ideal is a PU will recognize this and the runner, deflected from his normal path to the plate, perhaps the runner should know an outside slide and use it. But he should be able to "pull up" and claim obstruction if he has to deviate from a normal path to the base, i.e.....go around the catcher outside of the base path.

Ideally the catchers sets up between the lines in front of HP and put his glove in the base path after he's caught the ball. This is what good catchers do unless its the potentially final play of the last game of the season.

A runner should, at the HS level, be able to "pull up" or just haul of of the basepath when the catcher is over the line without the ball and should be called safe by obstruction.

Any umpire not doing this, not calling obstuction, is not following the intentions of the current rules and allows a significant risk of intimidation and injury. He's inviting the "train wrecks" so mentioned.

My guess, having exchanged views with old Jimmy03 on other threads is he'd disagree but I bet he calls a batter/runner out quite quickly on a double play because the lead runner into second obstructed the middle infielders trying to turn two....because he can interject himself into the game that way.

My view is old Jimmy03 needs to discuss his views with equally qualified memembers of his profession while holding an open mind.


I have no idea what you are talking about, and I'm not sure you do either.

1. I suggested the play was more likely obstruction on the catcher than interference on the runner...apparently you agree, yet are still trying to pick a fight.

2. Runners do not obstruct, they interfere, and whether or not the B/R is called out on interference depends on the rule set. In FED it is, by rule automatic. In OBR one has to determine if the interference was intentional. I follow the rules. It's a disadvantage umpires have. We can't just hold court and talk out our butts about how the things should be. We have to deal with how things are.

3. The accusation of one interjecting oneself into a game is usually made by a coach on the losing end of a call, regardless of the situation.

4. I discuss my view with many umpires of equal or higher levels of experience often... sometimes here. What we have in common is the understanding that you, apparently, can't come grips with the reality that you do not properly understand the rules.

5. Have a great summer season.
Last edited by Jimmy03
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Harv:
Jimmy03 has problems ever saying an ump was wrong

We revert to plan "B" which I learned over 40 years ago and have had reinforced many time. Go back early and kind of rake the first baseman's ankle with your spikes or step on his foot. He'll learn good baseball very quickly. The fact is the umpire causes this type of ugly behavior because he won't caution, worn of penilize poor baseball that risks injury.

My guess, having exchanged views with old Jimmy03 on other threads is he'd disagree but I bet he calls a batter/runner out quite quickly on a double play because the lead runner into second obstructed the middle infielders trying to turn two....because he can interject himself into the game that way.

My view is old Jimmy03 needs to discuss his views with equally qualified memembers of his profession while holding an open mind.


Jimmy doesnt need any help defending himself...yet I cant let you spill this vile without calling BS....

1. You havent been here long enough or read this thread very long....as Jimmy and all of us call out poor umpiring when it is called for.....if you'd bother to use the search button you could see multiple indications of that.....

2. If you teach your players to deliberatly injure another player then you are the problem, hang it up....baseball doesnt need any of your supposed knowledge....then to blame your deliberate direction to injure a youth on an umpire is cowardly and despicable.....

you taught it, you directed it, you carry the blame and the shame for injuring a teenager.....not umpires...

3. Jimmy provides coaches, parents and players the benefit of his years of knowldege and experience for free and although most of umpires here know his level of experience and resume, you may not....and as such you dont have a clue how wrong you are regarding his working habits and the respect of which he is held by this community...

Your posts have told us all we need to know about you, your lack of ethics and your lack of rules knowledge.. As the moderator, I will not tolerate any abuse of our volunteer staff. If you have an issue with any of this, please contact the owner....
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
In the OP I agree that it sounds like obstruction on the catcher. In the discussion with the umpire, ask him if the runner had gone completely around the catcher to avoid the contact and it caused him to be tagged out, would he awarded the runner home on the obstruction? If he says no then that would be protestable. The catcher can not be there without the ball and cause the runner to alter his approach without it being obstruction. It sounds like the BU understood this and convinced the PU of his error.

Now, as to the busting of Jimmy, that's ****. You say he would call a double play at second, if it violates the FPSR then certainly he would because that is what the National Federation of High School have dictated we do. If the runner slides to the side or over the base and contacts the fielder past the bag then it is a violation and both runners are called out. The rule says not to consider if the double play could be made or not, just call the out.

I will discuss plays with anybody for as long as they wish, even if they don't want to listen to answer. What I won't do is engage umpire bashing simply to bash them. All of us understand umpires will make mistakes, our job is to try and teach them not to make them again. We also are here to further coaches' knowledge and the proper way to approach and discuss disagreements, see the first paragraph.
Last edited by piaa_ump
carolcarol100+ posts
I stumbled across this thread this morning and wanted to get some insight on what I saw happen at a JUCO regional tournament recently. Of course, the tournament is ancient history but I would just like input for my own curiosity.

Catcher receives ball and is blocking the plate. He tags the runner before runner ever reaches the plate. Runner throws up a football style block (forearms raised and crossed) under the catcher's chin knocking catcher to the ground. Catcher loses consciousness briefly and only then does ball roll out from his glove.

The call was made after considerable conferencing between umps. Runner was safe and run scored. Catcher got up after what seemed like an eternity and crouched behind the plate once again. Next batter hit a long fly ball to catcher's outfield roommate who easily caught the ball, ending the game.

As a final note, runner broke his collarbone on the play. Catcher has a mild case of whiplash.

BTW, I have stated this exactly as it happened. I even had the chance to review a videotape of the play. So, no emotional "I saw what I wanted to see".

FWIW, catcher is my son and this parent is so very proud of the MAN he is. That's one tough fellow.

Oh, and yes, we won the game!
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
Plays are so different in real time than in writing. In real time all this happens in the amount of time it takes to read "Catcher receives ball and..."

If I get some time I'll post the NCAA collision rules. It sounds as if the runner should have called out on the collision. If it were deemed malicious, he should be called out and ejected.
Last edited by Jimmy03
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
Here we go:

From NCAA Rule 8-7

If the defensive player blocks the base (plate) or base line with clear possession of the ball, the runner may make contact, slide into or make contact with a fielder as long as the runner is making a legitimate attempt to reach the base (plate). Contact above the waist that was initiated by the base runner shall not be judged as an attempt to reach the base or plate.

(1) The runner must make an actual attempt to reach the base (plate).

PENALTY—If the runner attempts to dislodge the ball or initiates an avoidable collision, the runner shall be declared out, even if the fielder loses possession of the ball. The ball is dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.

(2) The runner may not attempt to dislodge the ball from the fielder. Contact above the waist shall be judged by the umpire as an attempt by the runner to dislodge the ball.

PENALTY—If the contact is flagrant or malicious before the runner touches the plate, the runner shall be declared out and also ejected from the contest. The ball is immediately dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.

(3) The runner must attempt to avoid a collision if he can reach the base without colliding.

PENALTY—If the contact is flagrant or malicious after the runner touches the base (plate), the runner is safe, but is ejected from the contest. The ball is immediately dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference. If this occurs at any base other than home, the offending team may replace the runner. If the contact occurs after a preceding runner touches home plate, the preceding runner is safe. The ball is immediately dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the contact.

(4) If the runner’s path to the base is blocked and (1), (2) and (3) are fulfilled, it is considered unavoidable contact.
carolcarol100+ posts
Jimmy03,
I understand your reply until item 4. The runner definitely did not attempt to avoid collision or to slide. He was running full speed and when he reached catcher he raised his forearms in a football style block and came up under the 6'4" catcher's chin.

I think you answered my question with the sentence "Contact above the waist that was initiated by the base runner shall not be judged as an attempt to reach the base or plate." If I am understanding you correctly, the runner should have been ejected and the run should not have been counted.

That was pretty much the consensus of the fans which of course counts for nothing.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by carol:
Jimmy03,
I understand your reply until item 4. The runner definitely did not attempt to avoid collision or to slide. He was running full speed and when he reached catcher he raised his forearms in a football style block and came up under the 6'4" catcher's chin.

I think you answered my question with the sentence "Contact above the waist that was initiated by the base runner shall not be judged as an attempt to reach the base or plate." If I am understanding you correctly, the runner should have been ejected and the run should not have been counted.

That was pretty much the consensus of the fans which of course counts for nothing.


Not seeing the play, I answered as best as I could and included this statment: "If it were deemed malicious, he should be called out and ejected."

I hesitate to comment on hits above the waist as we have been advised not to take that literally due to the various positions catchers can take. Depending on how they block the plate some catchers' wast can be a couple of feet off the ground.

Again, my intent was to provide the information upon which someone who saw the play could make a ruling.

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