Courtesy runner questions

Well s/he is not a sub and I am guessing s/he gets the run scored stat... 

Originally Posted by TX-Ump74:

Well s/he is not a sub and I am guessing s/he gets the run scored stat... 

You’re saying a CR is not a substitute? If that’s true, how can they enter the game? Also, if they aren’t a sub, if the team bats around, and that batting position comes up again, you’re saying the player who was the CR can’t bat because they were never a sub in the game.

You may be correct, but it sure seems strange to me.

In NFHS there is a difference between a courtesy runner and a pinch runner.   A courtesy runner is a bench player that runs for the player on base.  That bench plaayer can only run for 1 player per inning.  example... inning 1 Player 1 gets a single... Player 2 is the courtesy runner for player 1... he steals second third and home on 3 consecutive pitches  (now you know why he ran for player 1)... player 3 singles... player 2 can not run again in inning 1 (unless they bat around and player 1 gets on again)... Now in inning 2, player 5 gets on... player 2 can run for player 5.  Player 2 once designated a courtesy runner can not enter as a substitute and will not bat.

A pinch runner is a substitute. A substitute will bat in the same spot as the person he replaced.  Keep in mind that in NFHS, the starter can return 1 time, but must return in the same spot in the order... at which time the substitute is removed from the game and can not return in any capacity - even as a CR.  As for the credit for the run scored... I'll leave that to the stat geeks.

Correct, a CR is not a sub.  If the CR was a sub, then when the original player went back on defense, the CR would be out of the game and could not return.

In your example, the CR could not hit if the line-up turned over because the CR can't appear on offense as other than the CR in that half-inning.  The original player bats -- and it does not count as a re-entry because the CR was not a sub.

(all of the above assuming HS rules, and not some "local / tournament" rule that only says "CR is allowed" and doesn't get into the details)

Only if Player 5 and Player 1 were both the pitcher (or both the catcher) at the times the CR wanted to enter.  If Player 1 is the Pitcher and Player 5 is the catcher, then Player 2 cannot CR for both of them, under FED rules.

Thanks for the clarification... but one question.  If the CR was for the catcher in inning 1... then the catcher went to play 1b in inning 4 ... is the CR tied to the original catcher (now 1b) or the new catcher?  

Originally Posted by noumpere:

Correct, a CR is not a sub.  If the CR was a sub, then when the original player went back on defense, the CR would be out of the game and could not return.

In your example, the CR could not hit if the line-up turned over because the CR can't appear on offense as other than the CR in that half-inning.  The original player bats -- and it does not count as a re-entry because the CR was not a sub.

(all of the above assuming HS rules, and not some "local / tournament" rule that only says "CR is allowed" and doesn't get into the details)

Luckily, our league decided about 15 years ago to drop the CR. They did some kind of study that showed the “speed up” rule actually took more time, so I don’t have to deal with it very often. But even when I do I still handle it as I always have, which is to make sure the player who is in the game gets credit for what he does.

I never had a question about it before, but now that I do, out of curiosity I’ll check with our local rules arbiter for the section who does a few of our games as an umpire every year.

Really the CR isn't that complicated.  Whoever runs for the catcher can only run for the catcher and whoever runs for the pitcher can only run for the pitcher.  It doesn't matter who the P/C are because they are running for that position.  But they still have the same ability to be a sub as anyone else on the bench but once they enter the game anywhere besides as a CR then they can no longer be the CR.

I think using a CR does speed the game up but not significantly enough to really matter.  I use it as strategy because if my P/C is slow then I'm gaining a faster / better baserunner.  That increases my chances to score - probably not a lot but it's still better.  If it's a super hot day then it's a chance to give my pitcher more time to rest between innings.  Even if he's a fast kid and / or best runner.  He's more important on the mound.

Where CR doesn't speed up the game is when the coach has no idea ahead of time who they will be and he calls time, looks in the dugout, figures out who he wants, now Johnny has to find a helmet and get out of the dugout.  Plus, the ump is waiting to find out his number so he can write it on the lineup card and alert the other team.  When that happens it takes forever.  I put my CR on my lineup card I turn in to the umps and other teams.  When my P/C reaches base I call time, tell the ump CR for P/C (whoever it is) and say it's on the card.  My guys know ahead of time who is doing it and they are waiting with a helmet ready to come out of the dugout once time is called.  You can teach your kids to do this by paying attention to the game.  Everyone wants to play - even if it's just being a CR - so they will pay attention when whoever they are running for is up.  I never have to remind my guys at all.  I like it because it allows me to get younger guys in the game for a little bit of experience.

Now if they got rid of the CR it wouldn't bother me at all.  It's just an advantage I want to use to help us win and make guys more involved.

Funny story (and maybe had to be there) - I was in KY coaching and we played a team in IN one day.  They don't do CR but I didn't know that.  So my P/C reaches base and I call time and say CR and my guys switch like they are supposed to.  The ump stares at me and finally asks are you really making a substitution in the first inning?  Now I was dumbfounded and told him we were using CR.  He said he had no idea what that was.  So after about a 5 minute conversation we finally figured out that IN doesn't use CR and they now know what a CR is.  Even at the time it was funny and everyone was laughing after we figured out what was going on.

Originally Posted by coach2709:

…Funny story (and maybe had to be there) - I was in KY coaching and we played a team in IN one day.  They don't do CR but I didn't know that.  So my P/C reaches base and I call time and say CR and my guys switch like they are supposed to.  The ump stares at me and finally asks are you really making a substitution in the first inning?  Now I was dumbfounded and told him we were using CR.  He said he had no idea what that was.  So after about a 5 minute conversation we finally figured out that IN doesn't use CR and they now know what a CR is.  Even at the time it was funny and everyone was laughing after we figured out what was going on.

The same thing happened to us in the Jr Olys where we were playing under FED rules. In our part of CA we weren’t using the CR but in Az they were. Our coach called BS on a team we were playing because he saw them re-enter the catcher twice. He was embarrassed and more than a little angry, and I think rightly so. That’s really a local rule and should be made very clear in the pre-tournament packet.

The high school CR rule is really quite simple.

The CR is not a substitute.

A CR can;

not have otherwise previously participated in the game.

be used for the pitcher and the catcher.

run for either the pitcher or the catcher but not for both. 

not be used as substitute during that half inning.

Is the CR simple and not complicated? One can make it super complicated at so many different levels. For just one example, if a team might have a not so fast 1b or leftfielder who hits in the top 3 or 4 spots in the lineup and are on the road what would stop a coach from listing this player as a catcher knowing they will get to hit in the top 1st and chances are if they are hitting top 4 might happen to get on base. Then if/when get on base send a much faster/better baserunner out on field as CR w no penalty to increase your chances to score. Maybe even one of your top baserunner who may happen to hit 7 8 9 but now don't start them so they can perhaps CR in the 1st inn. Then when your team takes the field in the bottom of the first go directly to the umpire and explain how you are making a position change moving your catcher to leftfield. This is only 1 of about 4 I can think of off the top of my head.

The rule is simple, but finding loopholes in the rule would definitely cause complications.

I guess, in your example, there is nothing to stop the coach from doing what you suggest, but once the original catcher goes to left field the CR could only be used for the new catcher, not the original catcher.  I don't see this as a distinct advantage.