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Crazy Game. Crazy call?

TCB1TCB1500+ posts
Watching a game tonight (my team not in the game, but I'm running scoreboard) and am aware that Orange team is using an illegal composite bat. Knowing a coach from Red team, he says they are aware of it being illegal.

Red team goes up 5-0, then 8-0, then finally up 13-3 in the top of the 5th. All they have to do is get 3 outs in the bottom of the innning and the game is over. Leadoff hitter for Orange team opens up bottom of 5th with a Triple, USING THE ILLEGAL BAT. No reaction from Red Team. Next batter, using the illegal bat, hits a double; run rule now off.

Orange Team brings it to 13-8. Red Team says nothing until the next inning when Orange scores a couple of more. At that point they bring it up to the umpire that the player who just stepped into the batters box is using the illegal bat. Hitting team argues "No it isn't illegal" also argues "You (umpire) told us 2 days ago it was ok" Umpire says he knows the bat and KNOWS it is illegal and player can't use it. I ask "Is that an out?" and he says, "No, they say I told them it was OK, so I'm not going to call him out, I'm just throwing the bat out".

I'm amazed. I know the rule, but can't believe Red Team isn't making a fuss about getting an out after bringing it up. But they say nothing. Player promptly hits a grand slam. To make a long story short, Orange Team comes back to win the game in the bottom of the 7th, 14-13.

A couple of things:

1. Am I wrong/unsportsmanlike for thinking that if I'm the Red Team, I bring up the illegal bat as soon as the player hits the triple?

2. Am I wrong for thinking that if I'm the Red Team, I am absolutely demanding that an out be called pursuant to the rules? And again, is this too cheap of a way to win?

3. Does the umpire have an OPTION to not call the out? I don't see that anywhere in the rules.

An Aside: the Ump comes over to the scorers table between innings to get a drink from his water bottle and says "I don't recall ever having a discussion with them about that bat 2 days ago.".....Sorry, if that is how he feels, wasn't that a gutless call NOT calling the out on the hitter?

BTW: Same ump asked by Orange Team if Red Team's pitcher can wear a black and grey sleeve on his pitching arm. Ump tells pitcher to take it off? Haven't found this in the rules yet. Is it the same as the two-tone glove rule and/or the white sleeve rule?

Just thought this was all amazing.....

"Swing hard in case you hit something" Gary Ward

Last edited {1}
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Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TCB1:
Watching a game tonight (my team not in the game, but I'm running scoreboard) and am aware that Orange team is using an illegal composite bat. Knowing a coach from Red team, he says they are aware of it being illegal.

Red team goes up 5-0, then 8-0, then finally up 13-3 in the top of the 5th. All they have to do is get 3 outs in the bottom of the innning and the game is over. Leadoff hitter for Orange team opens up bottom of 5th with a Triple, USING THE ILLEGAL BAT. No reaction from Red Team. Next batter, using the illegal bat, hits a double; run rule now off.

Orange Team brings it to 13-8. Red Team says nothing until the next inning when Orange scores a couple of more. At that point they bring it up to the umpire that the player who just stepped into the batters box is using the illegal bat. Hitting team argues "No it isn't illegal" also argues "You (umpire) told us 2 days ago it was ok" Umpire says he knows the bat and KNOWS it is illegal and player can't use it. I ask "Is that an out?" and he says, "No, they say I told them it was OK, so I'm not going to call him out, I'm just throwing the bat out".

I'm amazed. I know the rule, but can't believe Red Team isn't making a fuss about getting an out after bringing it up. But they say nothing. Player promptly hits a grand slam. To make a long story short, Orange Team comes back to win the game in the bottom of the 7th, 14-13.

A couple of things:

1. Am I wrong/unsportsmanlike for thinking that if I'm the Red Team, I bring up the illegal bat as soon as the player hits the triple?

2. Am I wrong for thinking that if I'm the Red Team, I am absolutely demanding that an out be called pursuant to the rules? And again, is this too cheap of a way to win?

3. Does the umpire have an OPTION to not call the out? I don't see that anywhere in the rules.

An Aside: the Ump comes over to the scorers table between innings to get a drink from his water bottle and says "I don't recall ever having a discussion with them about that bat 2 days ago.".....Sorry, if that is how he feels, wasn't that a gutless call NOT calling the out on the hitter?

BTW: Same ump asked by Orange Team if Red Team's pitcher can wear a black and grey sleeve on his pitching arm. Ump tells pitcher to take it off? Haven't found this in the rules yet. Is it the same as the two-tone glove rule and/or the white sleeve rule?

Just thought this was all amazing.....

1. I'm not sure the morality of when to ask or let go of the illegal bat. It illegal because it is dangerous and could get kids hurt, the coach is not doing his job protecting his players.
2. I can't speak to the morality but I think he needs to bring it to the attention of the umpire as soon as he is aware.
3. I would absolutely insist on the out being called. If the bat is illegal the umpire has no option. It is not a reason to get run, simply protest.
Wether the umpire had told them it was legall two days before or not, if it was proven that it is illegal he has to call the out, period.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
Ok so under the assumption that this game is played under NFHS rules.....here are my thoughts...

First off, under Fed rule 7-4-1, if a batter steps into a batters box with an illegal bat, the ball is dead and the batter is out.

so as to your questions...

1. I believe that a team has a right to use its offense, defense, pitching and the rules to the best advantage to win the game. It is absolutely not unsportsmanlike to insist the game be played under the approved ruleset.

2.As to demanding that the rule be enforced....you can protest the game due to a misapplied rule....if there are no protests allowed in your state, then demanding an uninformed umpire to do something he does not know rarely gets you anywhere....

3. There are two choices here and it depends on when you alert the umpire and he agrees that the bat is illegal.....

A. if the batter steps in with an illegal bat and its called to the attention of the umpire, the ball is dead and the batter is out.

B. if the batter uses an illegal bat and then it is called to the attention of the umpire prior to the next pitch to a batter of either team, the defense may elect the penalty (batter out, runners return TOP) or the result of the play....


Now on to your additional issues....

Your assumption that the call by the umpire was "gutless"........

That depends on whether or not the umpire knew the rule....if he deliberatly did not call the out, knowing the rule....then he is flat wrong....

If he didnt know the rule, he is just ignorant of the proper code of the game he is working and needs training....

Or if he mixed up the rule with the rule regarding discovery of an illegal bat which just calls for removing the bat without penalty.........then using the word "gutless" is just an insult......

As to the sleeve.....

Under FED rule 6-2-1, the pitcher may not wear items on his arms, wrists or hands that, in the judgment of the umpire are distracting to the batter...(regardless of color)....this is something we arent going to look for, so if its brought to our attention, then if it is adjudged as distracting to a batter, it will be removed...
Last edited by piaa_ump
TCB1TCB1500+ posts
Thanks PIAA....the umpire not only KNEW the rule, we discussed with our umpires before the start of the tournament. That very umpire confirmed that it is an illegal bat, and it is illegal as soon as the batter enters the box.

His position was: I don't think I ever told them the bat was legal 2 days ago, but since they are saying I did, I WON'T call their batter out, I'll just remove the bat from play and tell them not to use it again.

That is the problem that I had with what he did.
yawetagyawetag100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
As to the sleeve.....

Under FED rule 6-2-1, the pitcher may not wear items on his arms, wrists or hands that, in the judgment of the umpire are distracting to the batter...(regardless of color)....this is something we arent going to look for, so if its brought to our attention, then if it is adjudged as distracting to a batter, it will be removed...


To compound this, if it didn't distract me before it's brought up, it's probably not distracting enough to remove it. I will know very early on (first few pitches) if a pitcher's uniform item is distracting.
TCB1TCB1500+ posts
Actually, when you read that language, it is very interesting....

"In the judgment of the umpire"...we all know that the umpires have to make a lot of decisions that are not black or white. They have the power and have to make the tough calls on a lot of judgments (ball or strike, fair or foul, etc.)

But that language makes it sound like they are substituting THEIR judgment for what a player is THINKING (that is, "it is distracting to the batter")

What if a coach complained about an arm sleeve, and the umpire said to the batter "Does that distract you?" and the hitter said "Nope."? I don't think we'd ever see that, but it's kind of interesting.

It just seems to me that the rule would be better written to just say "In the judgment of the umpire" and leave out the "distracting TO THE BATTER". Just say if the umpire deems it to be distracting. I think the way the rule is written gives ARGUMENTATIVE coaches more ability to pick nits.
Last edited by TCB1
TCB1TCB1500+ posts
piaa....

So the question is, though, is it unsportsmanlike that I KNOW it is an illegal bat before the game starts, but i wait until an OPPORTUNE time to "steal" an out? Say, bottom of the 7th, 2 outs, player hits a walk-off home run after going 0-3. I wait til his HR to tell the ump it is illegal, and that ends the game with us winning.

I think there will be some debate among coaches whether that is the way to handle it. Maybe I'll take this question to the coach's forum just to see if I'm in the majority or minority as to how I handle it. Thanks for all of your input.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TCB1:
piaa....

So the question is, though, is it unsportsmanlike that I KNOW it is an illegal bat before the game starts, but i wait until an OPPORTUNE time to "steal" an out? Say, bottom of the 7th, 2 outs, player hits a walk-off home run after going 0-3. I wait til his HR to tell the ump it is illegal, and that ends the game with us winning.

I think there will be some debate among coaches whether that is the way to handle it. Maybe I'll take this question to the coach's forum just to see if I'm in the majority or minority as to how I handle it. Thanks for all of your input.


well, I guess ultimately that is for you to decide....as the umpire, I'll rule on the situation when its brought to my attention...

The place where we are in the game or your intentions or previous knowledge of the bat will not be factored in to my decision....

I maintain that it is not unsportsmanlike to insist the game be played by the ruleset...and a coach can out-coach another by knowledge of baseball, better strategy and an better understanding of the rules....

The morality of it, Ill have to leave to you....hopefully the coach forum will give you the insight you need.
Last edited by piaa_ump
yawetagyawetag100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TCB1:
piaa....

So the question is, though, is it unsportsmanlike that I KNOW it is an illegal bat before the game starts, but i wait until an OPPORTUNE time to "steal" an out? Say, bottom of the 7th, 2 outs, player hits a walk-off home run after going 0-3. I wait til his HR to tell the ump it is illegal, and that ends the game with us winning.

I think there will be some debate among coaches whether that is the way to handle it. Maybe I'll take this question to the coach's forum just to see if I'm in the majority or minority as to how I handle it. Thanks for all of your input.


As PIAA said, it's a difference between your moral and ethical feelings and the rules of the game. The rules allow a coach to wait, but one coach might bring it up the first time he sees it while another brings it up at the first moment it will benefit him.

It's the same as batting out of order or using an illegal glove. The rules stipulate what happens when it's brought up but do not state it's mandatory for the coach to bring it up.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Posted July 07, 2011 11:30 PM Hide Post

His position was: I don't think I ever told them the bat was legal 2 days ago, but since they are saying I did, I WON'T call their batter out, I'll just remove the bat from play and tell them not to use it again.

That is the problem that I had with what he did.

Whether he did or did not is irrelevant. You inspect each game and rule on each instance. It is a clssic case of two wrngs don't make a right.

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