"Creative" D2 Recruiting: How typical?

It sounds like a "cattle call" and I would steer clear. My son played D-2 and Universty of Tampa's recruiting could not be more dissimilar.
I would not subject my son to that unless all other options had vanished.

I think that would be a mistake.  I know from a previous conversation what school SDad speaks of.  It is one of the top D2 programs in the west.  SDad is also right about the school being dirt cheap by current standards.  A 0% scholarship there will be much more cost effective than a 50% scholarship at many D1's.  And yeah, the players I've run into seem very happy there.

 

SD -- I suggest talking to Bob (Consultant) for insight on this school.

Based upon my observations over the years, the notion that coaches of fully-funded DI programs tend to favor the players with the largest scholarships because they have the most invested in them is much more myth than fact. People who believe otherwise seem to overlook the fact that it tends to be the best players in high school who attract the most dollars when offers are being made. If they happen to receive more innings once they get there, it's because they're the best players...who also happen to receive the most scholarship dollars.

 

Coaches get retained when they win, so they're naturally inclined to play the players who play best; and virtually any coach I know...at any division or level...would tell you that it's folly to sit someone based upon other reasons.

 

In my opinion, this DII coach is simply trying to prey upon a misconception to help bolster his perceived vulnerability when he plays the "DI coaches only play the moneyed players" card.

I didn't get the sense that the coach was trying to "prey" on anything actually.  He is in no way insecure. He's been at his job for a very long time and is very successful. Seems like an absolute straight shooter and a great guy frankly.  I did get the sense that he is quite unusual in his openness to giving walk- ons and not just of the recruited variety a very serious shot.

Two top D2 schools on the West Coast survive and prosper with D1 drop downs and JC transfers.. It is just the nature of the beast. One is a high academic and the other is not, but they both prosper under the rules and both offer very limited scholarships. As a player you just need to know going in the nature of the program. In the end, like any program you have earn your way on the field, but in these programs there is just another variable to be aware of. It happens in D1's and D3's, just less often. 

I'm not doubting that he might be a fine coach; but, if he thinks and says that he's more apt to play the best players because he hands out very little money and has a bunch of walk-ons, he's either badly misinformed or disingenuous. He needs to stop making assertions from his misconception about others' situations and stay focused on his own.

 

As a rule, college coaches tend to play the players they think give them the best opportunity to win. Period. When they have it available, they hand over athletic scholarship money to the players they think have the highest probability of helping them win; but, once they're there, players are stepping into a highly Darwinian environment.

 

Coaches' livelihoods generally depend upon winning, and that's a very strong motivator.. 

So he keeps the best players that show up?

 

Then he plays the best players he keeps?

 

Yeah, that does sound pretty weird.

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

On many, many threads on this forum,  people who seem to be quite in the  know have strongly advised against going the "recruited walk-on" route -- as an almost certain ticket to oblivion.  Let alone going the non-recruited walk-on route.   During the coach's talk, a parent even brought up this point to the coach. 

 

It strikes me that the thing that allows this coach to take this approach, and to seriously invite and scrutinize  more comers  is the 3 week try-out period for D2 as  opposed to the 48 hour try-out period for D1.   (again I'm not sure I heard the number of weeks right.) 

 

I should also say that last  year, we went to a prospect camp at another D2 -- at the school that is the main rival of this week's school (another D2 powerhouse) .   The coach at that school  made it pretty clear that he was not interested in attracting many comers for an extended look. In fact, he derided the approach of this week's school as seeking a  "starting 9 and a cast of thousands."    He made it clear that he wasn't at all interested in attracting a cast of thousands.  

 

From my admittedly very small sample size,  I conclude that there are different strokes for different coaches -- at least at the D2 level. 

 

By the way, this week's coach also made reference to his rival and some of their differences -- the main difference he pointed to was the fact that his rival's program is MUCH  better funded than his own.  Not sure how much that explains their different approaches.

 

First of all, as I'm sure you know, fully funded D2s only have 9 scholarships to offer to start with, so there really is not a lot of money there.  If this school has a lot of returning players, there may not be money left.  However, having that many players show up for "tryouts" cuts the odds down of your son making the team.  My son plays for what would be considered a powerhouse D2.  They do not take this approach.  Generally speaking, they go out and recruit the guys they want and don't depend on tryouts.  My son is a junior and this year is the 1st year they picked up a kid based on the fall tryout.  I know they don't go thru 3 weeks of tryouts.  I think they hold them for one day.  The kid they picked up is a pitcher and will probably have a very limited role this season.  Then again, his team has a roster of only 33.  Last year it was 28, I believe with a couple of redshirts.  I have seen D2 schools with bigger rosters as well as JV teams.  That's something you may want to ask about with such a big roster - do they have a JV team as well.  D2 teams do not have a roster limit like D1 teams do.

 

So, with all that being said, personally I think you would be taking a big chance of not making the team.  120 kids to be trying out is A LOT.  Your son would have to show something exceptional wind up on the roster at the end of the tryout period.  Think about it, between returning players and guys they went out and recruited, they may already have 30 players.  There are 90 other guys trying to pick up the final 5-10 spots.  Unless they carry a bigger roster.  If they carry a bigger roster, you may be competing with 40-50 guys for play time if you make it thru the tryouts.  You would have to be that much better than the returners and recruits to be able to take play time away from them.  And if this school is a power house, it means that the players that they have are pretty darned good and you're not going to just run right over them.

 

I'm sure this school and coach have a sterling reputation.  That doesn't change the numbers.  I would be leery about this situation unless you just have no where else to go.  JMHO.

Exactly what the D2 school my son is now at does.  They do recruit about a 1/3 of the incoming players from JuCo's (my son transferred from a JuCo).  I think they had open tryouts one or two days in the fall, and as far as I know, the coach did not keep any from the open tryouts.  This school has a successful program having won their conference 4 years in a row (can't seen to get past regionals though....).  This years roster is about 27-28 - down from 35 or so on last years roster.

In the case of fully-funded, DI programs, the distinction between the roster-paring process and determination of playing time is an important one to keep in mind.

 

Like others here, I have warned that the recruited walk-on at such programs is at greater risk of not making the 35-man roster than the scholarship player if the coaches find at the beginning of the season that they have more than 35 players to consider. The principal reasons for this are (1) the players on athletic scholarship tend to be the best players, (2) cuts from the walk-on ranks don't impair the program's Academic Progress Rate, and (3) coaches tend to believe that the players who are there without athletic financial aid are in a better position, financially, to complete their college degrees.

 

However, playing time is another matter, altogether. Once the 35-man roster has been determined, coaches are heavily biased to put their best team on the field. In the process, some players who began the season without athletic aid shine on the field and play their way into the receipt of athletic funds in subsequent semesters.

Fox, good point about the transfers.  My son's school has 21 out of the 33 on the roster from JUCOs or D1 transfers.  Lots of D2s go this route as well.

 

Slugger, that's something else you may want to look at on the roster of the team you are looking at.  How many transfers do they have?  I say this because as a freshman, your son may be competing against many juniors and seniors trying out for a roster spot, or already on the roster.  It is something that happens in many places, but given the number of kids trying out, it is something that may have more impact on your son in this situation.

excellent point.  And my  son's not too intrigued by this precisely because of points like this.   "Little job security in this program, I think."  was his assessment.

 

I thought it was telling that the coach  made a point of asking the assembled players "How many of you would quit if you got no playing time freshman year."    And he proceeded to tell them stories of players who stuck with him, despite not playing for one or even two years, and blossoming as juniors or seniors.  "Are you going to be better as a junior or as a freshman?"  he asked the players.  

 

He also seems to regard his program as a 5 year program -- he talked about 5 years a lot and he emphasized  player development over time a lot.  

 

I also forgot to mention that they had up until this year some sort of  athletic participation kinesiology course that they ran for baseball players in the fall.   They used it to conduct a "fall world series"  of some sort  (at least It think that's what he called it.)  

 

That's might have been another way he got extended looks at lots players.  He complained at the camp that the administration had eliminated it, but that they were hoping to get it re-instated.   Didn't elaborate much  but I looked it up on line.  Seems some people worried that this program was possibly skirting  NCAA rules about allowable practice time. (but these were for credit courses also open to non-varsity athletes. so I guess that's how the proposed to get around the rules).

 

Up until this year, the  school had these courses in all varsity sports in the offseason of those sports.   Varsity athletes are apparently very upset that they have been eliminated and are  all petitioning to get them back. 

 

Anyway, it all struck me as quite unusual, and quite unlike any approach we have encountered so far.  But like I said the team wins a lot.   So it somehow works. 

 

I am pretty sure the State school you speak of does not recruit 120 players, rather it was my understanding the coach is required to allow anyone to tryout,  as its a state school and not a UC, more kids are willing and able to take a chance on walking on compared to the other school you mentioned that is a hard to get into UC. Most of the  state schools in their league rely on JC and d1 dropdowns to fill out their rosters.   A freshman attempting to walkon without a legit walk-on invitation at any  Cal State D2 hasn't much of a chance.. 

 

Also the nature of the CA D2 beast requires a lot of late signes, they don't want to waste their time on guys that will go D1, so they have to wait and see who signs D1. 

 

       
       


Didn't mean to imply they recruit 120.  Not at all.   That's how many he says show up in the fall. They pretty quickly self- cut to 60 he said. It wasn't clear how many he recruits. Seemed to be purposely vague on that one.

SluggerDad, if you don't mind, would you please PM me the school name?  I'll keep confidential.

On the website of the relevant team they say they still have not finalized their 2015 roster and won't post it until after their first game this coming Monday.  I guess the coach was at least somewhat serious about giving multiple guys a shot to make the team.

Are you attending the opening game?

bob

No.
I hear you can give us the lowdown on this program though. Insights appreciated.

Curious, why does it seem to be some sort of protocol not to say the school names ? I mean isn't it a bit like the pitcher covering their mouths when speaking on the mound. Afraid of lipreading..haha,

I'm personally fully aware of which schools are being discussed in this thread. Seems like it would be a whole lot more helpful to others if posters just identified the schools. I mean do we seriously believe UCSD or Chico ( Oops..was that a technical? ) have spies reading posts on HS Baseball Web? Recruiting coordinators actually trying to decode user names to match against parents names of kids who are attending prospect camps.....Really?

It is important for the player and parents to watch a Spring Game at the school.

Talk with the parents of the current team players of both teams.

Have a list of questions.

 

Goodwill Series has many former players who are interested in specific colleges and I always visit with the parents, the "red" shirts and pro scouts while watching the game. Always include your son.

 

This is how one can learn before making a decision. Gather information.

 

Bob

<www.goodwillseries.org>

 

 

Strained, I think you may be surprised at what a big college audience we have here (not just as member posters but particularly as readers in the background), how small the baseball community is and how easy it is to figure out who posters are.

 

SluggerDad and son are in the middle of the recruiting process and the last thing they want is to put something out there that can possibly be interpreted as the least bit negative with any school, let alone one they are considering.

 

I share the same frustrations- it would be nice to always have the specific reference schools, player names, etc,. but I think you will come to learn quickly why it is often appropriate here to leave it out.

 

BTW, if I am interpreting your post correctly and you think the school you mentioned is the one in question, it isn't.

There's a lot to comment on in this thread. My short version to the OP is this appears to be a good deal for the coach and a long shot for your son. He has a returning roster and preferred recruits even if he hasn't guaranteed them a roster spot yet. Your son would probably be competing against about thirty players for a handful of roster spots. It would be players who believe they are just as likely to make the team as your son. Your son shouldn't want to just make a team. He should want to play and have a quality college and college baseball experience. Playing time is hard enough to earn even when a player has a guaranteed roster spot the coach is telling him he'll be competing for a certain position.

 

I would think if this well regarded D2 is interested in your son (for what I consider a long shot) he would be in high demand by top D3s. 

I understand. I'm also in the recruiting process with my son. Any yes this site has readers beyond parents , but I seriously take issue with the notion that a HC, asst, RC, Grad asst or anybody else from the baseball department at a school is actually reading through posts here then decoding user names and comparing that to players they are recruiting. First, it's WAY too time consuming and secondly these guys are flat out busy. I might check w/ a friend who coaches at a major university next time I see him, But quite frankly I'm afraid he'd laugh at me.

Lastly, I would also note that if you are correct and colleges are spying on the comments being made by parents of potential recruits it would have very little to do with the schools decision regarding the player. Assuming they read the above post or most posts on this site regarding the particulars of their program. If the kid can hit and they see him helping them win and they want him. He will be recruited. Period. Find it hard to believe that a HC or RC is going to pass on a LHP that throws 88 MPH because his dad was asking questions regarding his school's funding, coaching style, recruiting time-line or anything else on HSBW.

I'm not suggesting that parents come here and rant and say negative things about specific schools. That's just dumb. What I am saying is that a recruiting topic on HSBBW regarding recruited walk on's or funding like this one would be clearly more informative if the readers knew which schools were being discussed.

 

Then they should feel free to send a dialog to the OP orone of the other posters who seems to know. I never like it when people name names. This is a public forum and anybody can say what they want. All it takes is one parent with an axe to grind, to hurt the reputation of a school or a coach or school in the eyes of a recruit. Keeping it anonymous allows the OP to get constructive feedback.