I am wondering if all things are equal, which would be a better pitch to develop? Also, for a right handed pitcher is a slider harder on a pitcher's arm than a curve?
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I prefer to teach four seam, the change, then two seam as part of the pitchers equipment.
The Curve ball is harder to master, and get the umpire to call for strikes, yet the
slide ball easiest to learn.
I prefer to begin teaching the curveball grip and release point off of the fastball. If unable to obtain command of this grip after a year or so, I offer a pre-set deuce (still staying away from the dreaded tear the ulna & elbow slider).
I have sometimes, (and after mastery of 4 seam, two seam, and change (that spins like a fastball) gone to a split fingered with hopes that the light bulb turns on for the touch and feel of the players curveball.
Regards
Bear
The Curve ball is harder to master, and get the umpire to call for strikes, yet the
slide ball easiest to learn.
I prefer to begin teaching the curveball grip and release point off of the fastball. If unable to obtain command of this grip after a year or so, I offer a pre-set deuce (still staying away from the dreaded tear the ulna & elbow slider).
I have sometimes, (and after mastery of 4 seam, two seam, and change (that spins like a fastball) gone to a split fingered with hopes that the light bulb turns on for the touch and feel of the players curveball.
Regards
Bear
Yes a slider is harder on the arm than a properly thrown curve. Many, many pitchers throw a slurve which is also pretty darn hard on the arm.
We teach fastballs, curve, slider and change. I had one kid last year also throw the split. The slider is the hardest on the arm for a couple of reasons not the least of which is a tendency of pitchers throwing the slider to recoil after the throw. We teach the curve attempt to promote the 12-6 spin. Naturally, we do several drills to reinforce this not the least of which is taping 2 baseballs together while allowing access to the seams on one of the balls so that a pitcher can practice proper arm placement and follow through. Note, some coaches do this with a tennis ball can. I've never like that as much because of the lack of seams.
a slider is not harder on the arm...it is simply an off centered fastball. I am not sure where this was started in baseball, but there are many players that are not properly instructed on the technique on how to throw a slider. A splitter, IMO is much harder on the arm, especially the forearm and the hand muscles/tendons.
I would wait to learn both the curve and the slider until you are 17-18 and solid mechanically. The splitter has been taught mostly to and for those that need an out pitch since they can't already get it done.
Develop your 4 seam, 2 seam and change...when you have them perfect, we'll watch you in college.
Good Luck!
I would wait to learn both the curve and the slider until you are 17-18 and solid mechanically. The splitter has been taught mostly to and for those that need an out pitch since they can't already get it done.
Develop your 4 seam, 2 seam and change...when you have them perfect, we'll watch you in college.
Good Luck!
Starzz,
An off centered fastball is a cutter, not a slider. Even so the best "cutter" is thrown with some twist of the wrist. If you watch Rivera in slow enough motion you'll see that he's throwing a hard slider more so than a true cutter.
An off centered fastball is a cutter, not a slider. Even so the best "cutter" is thrown with some twist of the wrist. If you watch Rivera in slow enough motion you'll see that he's throwing a hard slider more so than a true cutter.
Starzz, I don't know where others get their info. I get mine from experience while also going to four or five baseball clinics per year listening some of the best pitching instructors speak. If I'm wrong, I blame them. The next time I turn the radio on for a couple of hours, I'll tell my arm it shouldn't feel any different than when I threw fastballs. LOL!
Starzz,
Have to agree with Coach and CADad, you are describing a cut fastball and not a slider
Have to agree with Coach and CADad, you are describing a cut fastball and not a slider
cut fast ball...slider...I doubt the differentiation is measurable to a novices eye. Call it what you may.
Coach I agree, I get my info from professional pitchers locally and they have never demonstated any twist, in fact, as they say,"that's why we make the big bucks"...that's why many can't do it...finger pressure and finger positions are the hardest to teach and replicate on the mound under pressure.
There is never a twist of a wrist when you throw. OUCH!! Everyone has an opinion, most can't demonstate or teach it with health in mind, and usually teach it at to early an age.
I'll agree to disagree on Rivera...he is a pressure/finger guy and not a twister of any sort.
Coach, I believe in our day, we knew little to nothing about what would end up hurting us as a pitcher. Today there are many resources to protect our kids...if only some would listen.
Good Topic!
Coach I agree, I get my info from professional pitchers locally and they have never demonstated any twist, in fact, as they say,"that's why we make the big bucks"...that's why many can't do it...finger pressure and finger positions are the hardest to teach and replicate on the mound under pressure.
There is never a twist of a wrist when you throw. OUCH!! Everyone has an opinion, most can't demonstate or teach it with health in mind, and usually teach it at to early an age.
I'll agree to disagree on Rivera...he is a pressure/finger guy and not a twister of any sort.
Coach, I believe in our day, we knew little to nothing about what would end up hurting us as a pitcher. Today there are many resources to protect our kids...if only some would listen.
Good Topic!
Mo's cutter is not twisting the wrist. It is generated by finger position and pressure. As the ball is released it may LOOK like he is "twisting" his wrist but it is just the effect of the ball being held off center in his fingers.
quote:
Originally posted by Starzz:
Coach, I believe in our day, we knew little to nothing about what would end up hurting us as a pitcher. Today there are many resources to protect our kids...if only some would listen.
Good Topic!
AGREED! In fact, I won't let my pitchers "Turn the Radio on." Coach Shouppe from University of Miami has a video entitled "The Power Curve Ball" and I believe that this is just a slider under a different heading. We throw this pitch and call it a slider along with a 12-6 curve.
redbird5,
I've seen the clips and it looks to me like he's definitely twisting the wrist. We'll just have to disagree on this one since we've probably seen the same clips and have different interpretations of what we see. Different interpretations of the same information is what makes for so much discussion at times. As long as we all realize that is what is happening we get some pretty good discussion without the "fights".
I threw a pretty good little slider in the day that almost made up for my not having much of a fastball. I just tried to throw a fastball and put that finger pressure on it which ended up with my wrist turning, ie knob on the radio. Some days it didn't turn that much and I threw a nice tight little slider. Some days it turned a bit more and I was throwing a slurve. I adjusted my pitching approach around whatever I had on a given day. If I threw a lot of them I tended to have a bit more soreness than usual. I don't what the kids these days feel but it was pretty normal for my arm to start aching around the elbow in the 6th or 7th inning. What I didn't have were the twinges below the elbow or in the shoulder.
I've seen the clips and it looks to me like he's definitely twisting the wrist. We'll just have to disagree on this one since we've probably seen the same clips and have different interpretations of what we see. Different interpretations of the same information is what makes for so much discussion at times. As long as we all realize that is what is happening we get some pretty good discussion without the "fights".
I threw a pretty good little slider in the day that almost made up for my not having much of a fastball. I just tried to throw a fastball and put that finger pressure on it which ended up with my wrist turning, ie knob on the radio. Some days it didn't turn that much and I threw a nice tight little slider. Some days it turned a bit more and I was throwing a slurve. I adjusted my pitching approach around whatever I had on a given day. If I threw a lot of them I tended to have a bit more soreness than usual. I don't what the kids these days feel but it was pretty normal for my arm to start aching around the elbow in the 6th or 7th inning. What I didn't have were the twinges below the elbow or in the shoulder.
CADad, in all of our video, yes, the wrist has to be turned or for lack of a better term twisted. I think it is then matters of degrees. Otherwise, you won't get those little red dots on that slider and it will fly real far!
