Cut after HS JV season

More info please-positions he plays, how he hits, speed?

did he find another team to play for in Summer/Fall? 

 

I'm not sure I understand the coaches reason...."you're numbers don't look good".   That is a fairly nebulous statement. 

 

What is important is your son's talent relative to the other players on the team.  Given that, how does your son stack up against the other players?  Where does your son fall short? Can he work on these skills prior to  tryouts next year?  Those are the real questions to ask the coach IMHO.

 

Good luck!

You may never know why the coach cut him...it could be his batting average, error amounts, it could even be that your son's talent is at 1st base and the coach already has 3 of those people with better batting averages...you just don't know.

 

What you do know is that he will not be playing at the high school this year.  My best suggestion is to call every travel ball team you can to get a try-out with the coach.  Most teams are already set, but if they see talent they may add your son to the team for the year.  Then in the Spring you go to the high school coach, game changer stats in hand, and ask the coach to PLEASE review his numbers for this past season when you get a chance, and have the kid tell the coach "I'll see you at tryouts in the fall Sir!"  In the meantime go to some showcases if you think your boy has some real talent.

 

That's the best you can do at this point.  Your kid lost his spot, for whatever reason, and if he wants it back then he has to earn it.

A couple of things.  This makes no sense.  Coach seems like a real tool.  Most coaches would give some sort of encouragement and evaluation (work on this).  But at least you know where you stand (kind of). 

 

About an hour north of town, we see spring baseball teams starting up for non-HS players.  Some kids have been cut.  But some, who have committed to college, have decided not to play HS ball at all.  Maybe it is an option. 

 

Otherwise, find a place to play in the summer.  Get evaluated.  Work hard during the off season and attend HS "tryouts."  You never know what may happen.  Good luck.

 

 

This isn't really about reasons why, kids have to get cut, it's more about did this coach (or HS coaches in general) leave a door open to try again or are we reading too much into this? Cut means cut, it's final. From the answers so far seems like he can and should try-out.

 

I've explained to my son if you're not clear (as I'm not) go ask for a meeting with the coach.

 

"Numbers" supposedly means BA, started strong but finished just above .200, prior to this season he's always hit well, and has returned to hitting well over the summer. We could point out the JV coach tweaking his swing coinciding with the slump.

Co-MVP as a freshman based on hitting/offense, played up to JV end of Frosh season

Position corner OF and 1B

Average speed, average arm, working on improving, 6' 185

Good attitude and grades, calm and quiet

Played summer 18U wood bat and excelled, playing a fall game recently as 16U and it was not a challenge for him. Has a Spring alternative if need be.

Tough situation for your son.  Hard to know what's going on if the coach won't provide details of what to work on or a chance to tryout in the Spring.

 

If you're in SoCal, the ABD Spring League is an alternative.  There may be more options that I'm not aware of too.  

 

One of my sons did this alternate league and it was outstanding. 

Haha, may be. I shook my head when son relayed how the cut went down. Certainly wish it was handled differently. Summer ball was a success, fall ball is off to a good start and we know of a local spring team.

Based on this statement, I would say he can try out again in the spring.  He will have to come back with some pretty impressive improvements in order for him to make the team and change the coach's mind though.  

 

It's never too late and one coach's opinion should never mean the end of the road for someone who has the desire to continue.  Have your son work on those things you mentioned in your last post (hitting, speed, arm strength) and come back in the spring ready to impress.  

 

If there are no tryouts in the spring (which is kind of weird in itself), have him approach the coach and ask for a tryout or if he can work out with the team.  Have him tell the coach he's been working his butt off all fall and has made improvements that he wants the coach to see before he gives up on him.  There's always a chance if your son really wants it.  He's just going to have to work for it.

 

Good luck to your son, let us know how this works out in the spring.

In researching Spring alternative it seems many teams are college age. Is this how it is? http://www.abdspringleague.com/

2016Dad,

 

It appears as though you’re in Ca, and that’s likely a reason a Jr isn’t put on a JV squad. In baseball at least, Jrs can’t play on JV teams in most sections in the state. It really has no effect on either summer or fall ball because the constitution and bylaws only cover the season of sport, but I can see how a coach wouldn’t want to put a player with a dubious future on a team where he might take opportunities from a younger player with a brighter future. I don’t agree with that kind of philosophy, but I can understand it.

 

In truth it’s very difficult for me to envision what you’re saying. In the last 14 years I’ve scored for 3 different coaches at 2 different schools, and I’ve never heard of a player getting cut in either summer or fall ball. Typically, that’s when the coach is spending lots of time with the “lesser” players, trying to get them to a place where they’ll help the spring team.

 

But at any rate, since the boy can still try out in the spring again, that’s what I’d concentrate on. It might be difficult to find out what he needs to do to make the team, but that’s what he’s gonna need to do so he knows what to work on.

 

“Numbers” does still mean BA to a few old farts who haven’t yet figgered out there are much better metrics on which to judge hitters, but again, you need to find out. I’m getting the feeling you’re one of those dads who believes the kid needs to “man up” and talk to the coach on his own. That’s all well and good, but this sure seems to be important enough for dad to at least be there to support the boy in case he doesn’t yet have the people skills to deal with an authority figure. I don’t know what section you’re in, but in most I know about, there’s a way for parents to talk to any coach. I suggest you talk to the coach because until you do, you’re just going to be guessing. After all, what could it hurt since he’s already been cut?

Numbers could also be his sixty time, his home to first time and his throwing velocity. 

 

I don't understand the coach's approach. He shouldn't have told the player his chances aren't good and discouraged him now. At the end of the spring season he should have pulled the kid aside, told him he had to make varsity next spring to stay in the program and what he needed to improve in his game to have a shot. 

 

Schools are required to have spring tryouts. The coach has made his mind up about your son. The only way that's going to change is when tryouts occur he shows such drastic improvement he can't go unnoticed. Over the school year if the coach can see him working out on his own at the school that would help the coach know they effort and intent is there. 

That HS coach should take his words back because NO ONE cares about HS stats...You never know what scouts like all it takes is one guy to like something about you and thats the break. Im in Norther California if you want to chat I can help. BUT i dislike coaches that act like that towards kids....

It seemed that way, but I didn't know it was a rule. Good to know.

Spring closed with awards night. V coach announced "all you JV kids will come out to play with Varsity this summer" A few weeks later dropped him off reminding him to think of this as a try-out and boom a few hours later picking him up said coach cut me. Took a few days of corresponding with parents to realize he was the only one, though for 3 others it was recommended they play summer on JV so they could get more at bats. And to make matters worse, a JV assistant coach relayed through other kids that my son should join them down on JV because we could "use his bat". We did email the V coach about that to which he apologized that the assistant coach hadn't been in meetings about the roster changes.

About mid season the JV coaches began handing out stats focusing on BA. I'm on board with Steve Springer's thoughts on BA but don't find many coaches are.

 

Here's a stat generality for you. JV coach told them their V BA will go down by 200 points. What do you think of that?

So is the summer ball team an official HS team? Not legion or club?   I don't think that's allowed in our CA section.  I find  the idea of cutting at the end of the spring very, very odd.  Now, if the summer teams were club, I could see some kids not getting invited, and that being seen as a pre-cut of sorts, but still, I'm pretty sure that all school teams have to have tryouts in season.

The only thing that would make sense why it was handled this way is since he don't hold tryouts and evaluates and cuts in the fall, maybe he just does base it off JV numbers and figure that whatever those numbers were lacking at the JV level will really look bad on varsity. This is assuming that January, he's had the team since fall and can get a head start with all the projected varsity players during January. In our area, tryouts are every March and players are evaluated each year. Some players have made it as freshman only to get cut soph and junior years and make it their senior year and another was a four year soccer player who never played HS baseball but played travel went out for the team his senior year only,  made the team and started most of the games. He was always a good hitter and athlete in general so he must've showed that in the tryouts. Since your baseball program don't hold regular spring tryouts, I guess if he wants to play that bad is to get on a good travel team, work on the game and pester that coach in whatever way he can. Why a coach wouldn't hold formal tryouts yearly is odd since you never know who you might miss out on. Bottom line is in coaches eyes some players will have to play themselves off a team while others will have to show they belong.

Not sure how these teams are defined. Summer teams do not play using the school name or uniforms. They do use the the schools coaches and practice at the school. Private school if that makes a difference.

My daughters story. As a freshman she led the team in all offensive categories. As a sophomore on JV she led the team in all offensive categories. As a Junior the coach brought up a freshman to play her position who was not ready in the least to play varsity. Daughter was crushed of course but kept on playing hard on JV. Led them again of course. Senior year she signed her national letter of intent to play in college 1 week before HS tryouts. The coach pulled her aside two days before tryouts and told her that he didn't have a spot for her on varsity and she could be a manager on the freshman team or a practice player if she wanted to stay with the program. She opted not to. This fall she is in loving life as a freshman college softball player.

 

This was not a powerhouse. 500 average team made playoffs most years.

 

Don't let a bad coach end your dreams. Keep fighting and playing. 

I'm just going to say it right up front - something doesn't add up with this story. Maybe things are much different in California, but can a HS coach also run the team in a summer program in California? Also sounds to me, if everything else is properly explained, that a coach addressing a player like this goes far beyond his playing ability on the field.

I'll agree.  Something doesn't make a lot of sense.  My experience with private schools is that they tend to be more "inclusive" given that they generally have smaller numbers of kids and the parents are spending big $$$. 

 

Is it possible that there is a discipline issue?  Or maybe the kid misunderstood?  Or he wants to quit?  Certainly might be reasonable to sit down with the coach and AD to get an understanding of the processes. 

Originally Posted by 2016Dad:

It seemed that way, but I didn't know it was a rule. Good to know.

 

Please check with your AD to be sure what the rule is at your school!

 

Spring closed with awards night. V coach announced "all you JV kids will come out to play with Varsity this summer" A few weeks later dropped him off reminding him to think of this as a try-out and boom a few hours later picking him up said coach cut me. Took a few days of corresponding with parents to realize he was the only one, though for 3 others it was recommended they play summer on JV so they could get more at bats. And to make matters worse, a JV assistant coach relayed through other kids that my son should join them down on JV because we could "use his bat". We did email the V coach about that to which he apologized that the assistant coach hadn't been in meetings about the roster changes.

 

I don’t mean to sound as though I think what took place was “right”, but I can tell you from bitter experience that very often assistants and lower level coaches aren’t privy to the latest info from the HVC.

 

About mid season the JV coaches began handing out stats focusing on BA. I'm on board with Steve Springer's thoughts on BA but don't find many coaches are.

 

I don’t doubt what you’re saying at all. So much depends on the program, the HC’s philosophies, and the scorer/statistician that it’s impossible for every program to operate the same way. FI, I’m a little crazy and generate just a few more stats than the average HS program.

 

To give you some idea, here’s the numbers for the 2014 summer JV team.

http://www.infosports.com/scor...es/summerbatting.pdf

http://www.infosports.com/scor...s/summerpitching.pdf

I’m guessing you noticed a few more things in there than the “normal” slash stats. We have a very successful program up here in NorCal who’s HVC is such a complete believer in Runs Created, in the stats he hands out, you’ll never see BA. But, we have another very successful HVC up here who lives and dies on BA, and coaches of all philosophies and beliefs are between those 2. Personally, I think BA is a horrible metric, and to tell the truth there have been many others through the years who believe the very same thing. 

 

Here are 3 short lectures from a class I took on Sabermetrics this past summer. A lot of baseball dinosaurs will never accept that there could possibly be anything better than the old slash stats, but I don’t know how anyone other than a dullard can argue that times haven’t shown that to be a passé philosophy.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eutMg6AqRNU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjfj4QaCKL8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_nF_WbBlSk

 

Here's a stat generality for you. JV coach told them their V BA will go down by 200 points. What do you think of that?

 

Not trying to condemn the coach, but my guess is he was using hyperbole to try to make some point, because in my experience what he said was pretty much a pantload. Sure some players will have their VBA be lower than their JVBA, but 200 points?

 

This 1^st link is the 2011 JV team from our school. The 2^nd is the 2012 V team. You can take a look for yourself to see if what he said is true. Better yet, go to http://www.maxpreps.com/state/baseball/california.htm and find your section then school and see what happens between the JV and V teams. Maybe at your school that’s true. But if it is, I’d 1^st suspect the JV coach was putting some really inflated numbers into the system.

 

http://www.maxpreps.com/high-s...-spring-11/stats.htm

 

http://www.maxpreps.com/high-s...-spring-12/stats.htm

 

 

I have not read the other posts where you may have left more info, but based on your general question, the answer is no!

The caveat is related to the coach and the reasons for cutting your son. However the general rule is that even if your son never plays for this coach, it does not mean your sons baseball desires are finished. However he must continue to work hard and play elsewhere, such as travel ball teams and tournaments.

 

As a means of showing you this is not the end of the world, I will tell you an inspirational story I've posted before on this forum.

A player who was a starter on the JV with my son went out for the V in his Jr. year and was expecting to start or at least be a backup. Instead he was cut and it really devastated him for a short time. Yet this kid rededicated himself to get better defensively(middle infielder) and to improve his hitting. He also continued to play travel ball and tourneys. So his senior year came and he went out for the team again. My son and others were pulling for him because they knew he was a decent player and a good guy. Sure enough, he got cut again, so his HS opportunity to play was finished.

For most kids, they would have thrown in the towel, but not this kid. He worked even harder to prove to the coach and anyone else who doubted him that he was going to keep playing. Sure enough, while playing travel ball, an NAIA coach saw him play and offered him a scholarship.

This kid not only got to play, but started for the team, and was one of the best guys on the team. He is still playing and still getting scholarship money to do so.

 

The HS that kept cutting him was a top team in the state, so just because he couldn't make it there, he probably could have made many other HS teams, maybe even started. So by the kid believing in himself AND working his butt off every opportunity he had, he continued to be able to play.

 

So tell your son to keep his chin up, and work extra hard to get ready for the upcoming tryouts. If he gets cut again, tell him to pick himself up, dust himself off, and get ready to work even harder to achieve his goal.

No one coach or setback should ever mean "your  done". A person is only done when they give up on themselves or the goal they have set for themselves. Tell him never to be defined by what others say he cannot do.

 

Good luck and keep us posted.

Thanks Stats,

 

Very interesting. "Runs Created". Shouldn't RBI's factor into one master stat of a hitters worth? The hitter left on base but got an RBI. He didn't create a run for himself but but did get an RBI. Seems like that's a run created as well.

I would want the coach to be direct.  At least he didn't wait until spring tryouts.  It gives you and your son time to look at alternatives and/or I.D. areas to improve for the spring.  My son was cut after his freshman year and led the team with close to a .500 average.  Some things don't make sense but that's the coach's decision.  We moved on and finished his HS career at a different school.  He's now playing college ball. 

Hang in there.  If he does possess talent for the next level, he'll find a roster spot somewhere.

Originally Posted by 2016Dad:

Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:

 Very interesting. "Runs Created". Shouldn't RBI's factor into one master stat of a hitters worth? The hitter left on base but got an RBI. He didn't create a run for himself but but did get an RBI. Seems like that's a run created as well.

 

Well, far be it for me to comment on what Bill James was thinking when he dreamed up RC, but I can certainly give you my thoughts about RBI’s. I’ve never been a big fan of them as a performance statistic, and because of that came up with the attached metric a loooong time ago. The attached shows our V batters for the 2014 season.

 

The reason I don’t place much stock in RBIs as an indicator of performance, is they are so dependent on who bats ahead of the hitter. You can put a lousy hitter in the #3 spot in a ML lineup and chances are he’ll end up with 75-100 RBIs. Drop him to the 8^th spot and he’ll likely only have 35-60 with exactly the same kind of season.

What does this have to do with helping the dad of a kid cut from the JV team? Why do you have to attempt to turn every possible discussion into a discussion on statistics? Statistics have nothing to do with why this kid was cut regardless of what the coach said. If it has anything at all to do with stats it's about the mechanics and physical ability behind the stats. Otherwise, the coach would want to work at improving the player. Anyone who ever coached would understand this.

My bad on the posted link, I think...

 

Alternate SoCal high school league is ABCL Baseball.  www.abclbaseball.com

 

League had college and high school players when my son played.