I appreciate the information that helps explain the decision. I can't say that all if it makes enough sense for me to agree with the decision, but there is almost no information out there substantiating it. If it truly is a just and fair decision, it would do the NCAA wonders to be transparent about it. Their decision very well could be sound, but for crying out loud, the way they're disseminating things, it comes off like the courageous equivalent to "ding dong and ditch." Drop the info and run and hide. If the decision was well-thought out, a certain percentage of the mob would subside if the NCAA took the time to be transparent and educate.
Just curious. If the dead period has been going on since March and will be extended thru Jan 1 - does the NCAA just not anticipate any schools to have a 2021 recruiting class?
Obviously it's going to happen and there are ways around it, but let's assume you were to play by the rules. That would either mean that they expect coaches to recruit without ever having seen a kid play in person or they expect athletes to commit to a school without ever having visited the staff and the campus.
Does that sound like they have the best interests of the student athlete in mind?
@DanJ posted:I appreciate the information that helps explain the decision. I can't say that all if it makes enough sense for me to agree with the decision, but there is almost no information out there substantiating it. If it truly is a just and fair decision, it would do the NCAA wonders to be transparent about it. Their decision very well could be sound, but for crying out loud, the way they're disseminating things, it comes off like the courageous equivalent to "ding dong and ditch." Drop the info and run and hide. If the decision was well-thought out, a certain percentage of the mob would subside if the NCAA took the time to be transparent and educate.
I am not sure what it is that people want. I don't agree with everything that the NCAA does, but my understanding is that they don't have allegiance to anyone but their member institutions and their student athletes. Where are they dropping the info (D1 dead period extended) and hiding? They don't want anyone on campus that doesn't belong there. They dont want their coaches traveling and bringing back COVID. Jeesh, we used to go watch practice and we can't.
I posted the link last night to their statement. They don't owe anyone further explanation.
If you didn't read Pitchingfan's post, read it again. And again.
Some of you live in an area not hit hard by the virus. Some live in areas battling to keep their players healthy, while treating them like adults and not children.
For the teams on campus having practice, coaches working their butts off 6 days a week, trying to get through spring practice. There are no camps allowed, the NCAA is allowing D1 programs to pay the volunteers who would normally get money from camps. So I am sure decisions are made due to budget restraints on every program.
If your son (anyone reading) is a 2021, 2022 and no commitment, maybe it's time to look into other options. There is nothing wrong with D2, D3 baseball and a D2, D3 education. The player must be proactive, no one is going to offer anyone an opportunity if they haven't made an real effort. And if the parent is doing all the work...stop!
I am apologize for my tone, but I am so tired about the complaining about the NCAA and feeling that their HS uncommitted son is getting screwed!
Most of the coaches in D1 are recruiting guys that they have seen before. How many 2021 D1 baseball players are just this year starting to play in the tournaments/showcases that had coaches at them? Most D1 teams were 75-90% completely done with their 2021 class before Covid appeared. Now they are especially with the circumstances we are in. If there is a smaller class than normal, it will be the 2021 class because I believe most 2020 recruits will be redshirted since you have so many upper classmen. You won't need as big of a 2021 and maybe 2022 class. The big dogs will get signed but the lower ones will fall down a level as we have been saying.
Many universities are not allowing any of their employees to spend university money to travel right now, nor to to bring (academic) visitors to campus. So, I wonder whether this is part of the reason for the ban. Some schools might not be able to pay for athletic travel, when the rest of their university can't do it. I don't know why that wouldn't also apply to D2, although, as MidAtlanticDad noted, the travel might be less.
Great, great points from TPM above!!!
D2 and D3 Baseball is awesome. The best teams from those divisions can and do beat many many D1 teams. I don’t understand the D1 or bust mentality.
Is it about what’s best for the kid, or is this about the immense feeling of pride and accomplishment you anticipate from posting your kid’s D1 commitment on Facebook and Twitter?
@3and2Fastball posted:Great, great points from TPM above!!!
D2 and D3 Baseball is awesome. The best teams from those divisions can and do beat many many D1 teams. I don’t understand the D1 or bust mentality.
Is it about what’s best for the kid, or is this about the immense feeling of pride and accomplishment you anticipate from posting your kid’s D1 commitment on Facebook and Twitter?
I don't get it either.
I also want to add that there are other schools that are not NCAA members.
@PABaseball posted:Just curious. If the dead period has been going on since March and will be extended thru Jan 1 - does the NCAA just not anticipate any schools to have a 2021 recruiting class?
Obviously it's going to happen and there are ways around it, but let's assume you were to play by the rules. That would either mean that they expect coaches to recruit without ever having seen a kid play in person or they expect athletes to commit to a school without ever having visited the staff and the campus.
Does that sound like they have the best interests of the student athlete in mind?
In coaching this past weekend, I heard several of our kids talking in the dugout about their recent commitment and that they never have seen the campus. They said given the backlog in college baseball right now and the dead period, they did not want to wait around and wanted to secure their offer.
@ARCEKU21 posted:In coaching this past weekend, I heard several of our kids talking in the dugout about their recent commitment and that they never have seen the campus. They said given the backlog in college baseball right now and the dead period, they did not want to wait around and wanted to secure their offer.
Beyond baseball, football is a sport where the overwhelming majority of guys commit their senior year as they have their senior season before the signing day.
Considering football is the bread and butter for the NCAA you'd think they would have done something that benefits either the athletes or the institutions, but they did neither.
@anotherparent posted:Many universities are not allowing any of their employees to spend university money to travel right now, nor to to bring (academic) visitors to campus. So, I wonder whether this is part of the reason for the ban. Some schools might not be able to pay for athletic travel, when the rest of their university can't do it. I don't know why that wouldn't also apply to D2, although, as MidAtlanticDad noted, the travel might be less.
All D1 programs in every sport. I am guessing D2 coaches have travel restrictions, not sure. I can sak if anyone is interested.
@TPM posted:I am not sure what it is that people want. I don't agree with everything that the NCAA does, but my understanding is that they don't have allegiance to anyone but their member institutions and their student athletes. Where are they dropping the info (D1 dead period extended) and hiding? They don't want anyone on campus that doesn't belong there. They dont want their coaches traveling and bringing back COVID. Jeesh, we used to go watch practice and we can't.
I posted the link last night to their statement. They don't owe anyone further explanation.
If you didn't read Pitchingfan's post, read it again. And again.
Some of you live in an area not hit hard by the virus. Some live in areas battling to keep their players healthy, while treating them like adults and not children.
For the teams on campus having practice, coaches working their butts off 6 days a week, trying to get through spring practice. There are no camps allowed, the NCAA is allowing D1 programs to pay the volunteers who would normally get money from camps. So I am sure decisions are made due to budget restraints on every program.
If your son (anyone reading) is a 2021, 2022 and no commitment, maybe it's time to look into other options. There is nothing wrong with D2, D3 baseball and a D2, D3 education. The player must be proactive, no one is going to offer anyone an opportunity if they haven't made an real effort. And if the parent is doing all the work...stop!
I am apologize for my tone, but I am so tired about the complaining about the NCAA and feeling that their HS uncommitted son is getting screwed!
We do need to keep it in perspective, which is hard given that all of us are obsessives about our sons and their futures.
My '22 is in the 'get you on campus' stage with a few schools and it will be interesting to see how that plays out. A mad dash after 1/1? Lots of moving parts here, which I think adds to our collective anxiety.
Well, alright. @TPM work for the NCAA much? I have no idea what TPM does for a living, but it's fair to speculate he's not in management. I am. No, that doesn't make me special/better. But I make decisions all the time and in no universe am I given the autonomy to make decisions that impact others and tell them I don't owe them any further explanation. How easy would my job be if I could drop my decision and walk away?! But I manage in 2020 and our culture doesn't allow for that old school, directive/authoritarian approach. Those who aren't transparent, get inundated, if not completely pummeled. Ask Kevin Warren. Are there laws or rules that the NCAA owes us further explanation? Nope. Would it be SMART for the NCAA to be transparent and educate? Absolutely. Who could argue that?
Look how many people come here just to learn the intricacies of the NCAA and their rules and processes. If they did a good enough job, we wouldn't be here asking and answering near as many questions. Spoiler alert! in 2020, the NCAA doesn't have a sterling reputation. Go look around. Read what people are saying. Unrest/dissatisfaction - if perpetuated long enough - gives way to bigger problems and sometimes, revolution. But it doesn't have to be this extreme. I think the masses (myself included) would be satisfied with a little more transparency and education. I'm not asking the NCAA to come over to my house and mow my lawn. How about a page of FAQs? Is that too much to ask for? The laymen can look at D2 flying free (in hot and cold Covid) zones and look at D1 all locked up and fairly ask why one is this way and the other different. Sure, different divisions, but last I checked, both are part of the NCAA. Is it more nuanced than that? Yep. But the NCAA leaves it up to us to do all the legwork. "We'll give you the decision and you can go figure out why on your own." How many business operate that way? That are still in business?
@TPM if you're that tired reading the complaints, maybe change the channel? You've been here since 2003 so you know some of this will be here. Also, you assume too much. My 2021 is committed to a JUCO. My son is not getting screwed. But if you can't appreciate that many other children are, you're looking through a very small lens. None of us get to dictate what constitutes a tragedy to another. I like to say that Covid deaths don't own a monopoly on tragedy. Lots of people are suffering and in many different ways.
@DanJ posted:Well, alright. @TPM work for the NCAA much? I have no idea what TPM does for a living, but it's fair to speculate he's not in management. I am. No, that doesn't make me special/better. But I make decisions all the time and in no universe am I given the autonomy to make decisions that impact others and tell them I don't owe them any further explanation. How easy would my job be if I could drop my decision and walk away?! But I manage in 2020 and our culture doesn't allow for that old school, directive/authoritarian approach. Those who aren't transparent, get inundated, if not completely pummeled. Ask Kevin Warren. Are there laws or rules that the NCAA owes us further explanation? Nope. Would it be SMART for the NCAA to be transparent and educate? Absolutely. Who could argue that?
Look how many people come here just to learn the intricacies of the NCAA and their rules and processes. If they did a good enough job, we wouldn't be here asking and answering near as many questions. Spoiler alert! in 2020, the NCAA doesn't have a sterling reputation. Go look around. Read what people are saying. Unrest/dissatisfaction - if perpetuated long enough - gives way to bigger problems and sometimes, revolution. But it doesn't have to be this extreme. I think the masses (myself included) would be satisfied with a little more transparency and education. I'm not asking the NCAA to come over to my house and mow my lawn. How about a page of FAQs? Is that too much to ask for? The laymen can look at D2 flying free (in hot and cold Covid) zones and look at D1 all locked up and fairly ask why one is this way and the other different. Sure, different divisions, but last I checked, both are part of the NCAA. Is it more nuanced than that? Yep. But the NCAA leaves it up to us to do all the legwork. "We'll give you the decision and you can go figure out why on your own." How many business operate that way? That are still in business?
@TPM if you're that tired reading the complaints, maybe change the channel? You've been here since 2003 so you know some of this will be here. Also, you assume too much. My 2021 is committed to a JUCO. My son is not getting screwed. But if you can't appreciate that many other children are, you're looking through a very small lens. None of us get to dictate what constitutes a tragedy to another. I like to say that Covid deaths don't own a monopoly on tragedy. Lots of people are suffering and in many different ways.
I am not a he, but a she. Sometimes it's a good idea to read Webster's bios.
You assume too much.....
Yes there are MANY people suffering right now. But people here still find time to complain, and freak out because D1 coaches can't go out on the road.
Once again, I posted a link last night as to the NCAAs position.
You have a problem with their reasons, send a letter.
@OskiSD posted:We do need to keep it in perspective, which is hard given that all of us are obsessives about our sons and their futures.
My '22 is in the 'get you on campus' stage with a few schools and it will be interesting to see how that plays out. A mad dash after 1/1? Lots of moving parts here, which I think adds to our collective anxiety.
Make sure that your son keeps in weekly contact with those coaches, perhaps through email.
I am sure that as soon as they can they will invite him on campus.
As far as the NCAA, it's hard to know what they are thinking, that's why all NCAA schools have compliance officers who keep the coaches informed and help interpret rules.
@TPM posted:Make sure that your son keeps in weekly contact with those coaches, perhaps through email.
I am sure that as soon as they can they will invite him on campus.
As far as the NCAA, it's hard to know what they are thinking, that's why all NCAA schools have compliance officers who keep the coaches informed and help interpret rules.
Sound advice, thank you.
Touché, @TPM! I did assume wrong and I apologize for that. No sure what Webster’s bios is, but I don’t dare complain about it!
This thread might need to be migrated to the Golden Threads or forum rules now because apparently feedback isn’t welcome if someone here considers its complaining. Unhappy with how your PG or PBR showcase experience was? Don’t bother bringing that nonsense here. Apparently your only proper course of action would be to send PG or PBR a letter. Catharsis, honest dialogue and questions have no place here.
Listen, I get the point. No one loves listening to whining, but not all dissension is whining for the sake of whining. It often leads to dialogue, information sharing and increased understanding of perspectives different than our own. The beautiful thing is, we always have a choice as to whether or not we read it. Tolerance can often be a virtue.
@DanJ posted:Touché, @TPM! I did assume wrong and I apologize for that. No sure what Webster’s bios is, but I don’t dare complain about it!
This thread might need to be migrated to the Golden Threads or forum rules now because apparently feedback isn’t welcome if someone here considers its complaining. Unhappy with how your PG or PBR showcase experience was? Don’t bother bringing that nonsense here. Apparently your only proper course of action would be to send PG or PBR a letter. Catharsis, honest dialogue and questions have no place here.
Listen, I get the point. No one loves listening to whining, but not all dissension is whining for the sake of whining. It often leads to dialogue, information sharing and increased understanding of perspectives different than our own. The beautiful thing is, we always have a choice as to whether or not we read it. Tolerance can often be a virtue.
You keep wondering why the NCAA doesn't give clear concise reasons. Why? Because the NCAA doesn't give clear concise reasons!
FWIW, the dead period for baseball under normal times begins end of October, see NCAA recruiting calendar. So it's not too hard to understand why they extended it. Also, as explained to me the NCAA has to go by the advice of their medical team. Just as schools have to go by advice from their medical teams. So there are obviously quite a few reasons to consider as to why.
There is just so much going on right now, it's a very difficult time for everyone. It's just not about baseball. The objective is to get football and basketball going, except for the top baseball programs that bring in some money, all other programs come last.
Not too many have complained, the same few do it often. I think more folks here really have a very good understanding how difficult things are. I respect parents for making efforts to have their players seen this summer. I am sure it hasn't been easy.
So does the Dead period still apply after the NLI signing 11/11? Per the NLI, it completes the recruiting process, so in theory, it shouldn't apply. So the guys "should be" allowed on campus as they're no longer recruits, but official.... Just wondering on the "official visits" where the guys get all geared up and take pictures and the signees and schools tweet it out. Great to get the signing class together.
Any idea?
@Eokerholm if you look at the definition of a dead period on the NCAA website it says that: "During a dead period a college coach may not have face-to-face contact with college-bound student-athletes or their parents...." (emphasis added)
I'm no NCAA expert but I interpret that as meaning anyone not enrolled. After signing the NLI, a commit will still be "college-bound" even though his recruiting process is over. My take on it is that the schools will let us know differently but my expectation is no official visit until after the dead period is over, if at all. Frankly, as fun as official visits are, I wish the money that is normally earmarked for official visits could go toward additional scholarship money this year. There is more than enough time for pictures in uniforms and class bonding once the players show up on campus.
Wow interesting discussion, and spirited. I think in general TPM has it. Dan, I too have been in leadership in my professional life and I understand your point about transparency and accountability. In this case I believe it comes down to they are scared !$&&less to lose D1 basketball and football revenue plain and simple. That’s not the issue with D2/3, juco NAIA. I don’t have to agree totally with it but in the end it’s their game and we are just kinda swept up in it.
as the Dad of a ‘21 I can empathize. It’s been maddening, upsetting,mentally taxing and borderline abusive to the 21 class. Now TPM hold your hat.....over the past 8 years we didn’t spend 35k (conservatively) on travel ball, speed class, weight training,Repeating 8th grade PG,PBR, etc. to play anything other than really D1 as his first choice. He wanted to play against the best and that was his goal.in our area there is a difference in my mind in facilities, coaching and overall talent. To have that basically erased in front of him and limit the opportunity was a tough lesson. So we pivoted. He by chance ( you never know who is watching or..... coaching against you!!!lol) happened into a good D2 opportunity, we realized the landscape had changed so he took it. Was it what he wanted? No, but it was the best package and education he had in front of him of the 2 D2 and 4 D3 “offers” he got.
Was he D1 talent kid? Yep most likely in a normal year. He was told that plenty of times by college coaches at all levels. I’m comfortable , having coached 8 D1 ss in high school as an “infield guy”, to look and say yes talent wize he was at that level.I was a D1 ss, both his uncles were D1 ss’s. I have enough independent sources(mlb,Pbr,PG etc) that confirm that rating. In short I think I know what one looks like.Is he a P5 top pick type kid? No, just a slightly undersized (5’10 ,160) good solid player.Enough D1 coaches saw him this summer(yes it happened and was legal) but each one basically didn’t have the roster spot or were bringing in less for the ‘21 class. It hurt when my alma Mater went with another kid basically because “ the head coach wants MIF’s over 6ft”. Really pissed me off and I’ll probably never give them another dollar. Did it suck? Yep for sure.
so in some ways it was bittersweet, in general he’s happy to get the opportunity and overall it’s a decent package and a decent conference. The fact is he probably got more baseball$$$ than he would have ever got in a D1 setting. I’m excited to watch him develop as a person and player and watch some good college baseball as a Dad ( my Dad has always said it was the greatest 4 years for he and my mom). We will always wonder “What if” but boy is this game ever filled with that. 31 years later at times I catch myself going over it with myself, and then I realize it’s never changing and things have worked out ok.
my advice to others is to step back, honestly evaluate and pivot to what might be available. Waiting in my viewpoint won’t change much for the ‘21class. If you have a legit offer at this point I’d take it.
JMO, flame away.... but I’m sharing in hopes of helping.As a coach I spent 24 years trying to find the 1 kid I could help the way my coaches helped me learn about baseball, myself and life.Maybe I can help someone here.