D1 v. D3

Lots of considerations once you take away that D-III schools don't offer athletic money (note that Ivy and Patriot League D-I schools don't either).

 

People sometimes get stars in their eyes when thinking of D-I, and yes, the top teams play at a highly competitive level. But plenty of D-III teams can compete with mid to lower tier D-I schools. If there's a difference, it's often bench and pitching depth. But put the starters and top couple of pitchers on the field together, and the D-III schools will compete.

 

Some people say that going to D-I means that they "own" you -- I've heard that often. Typically at D-I schools your classes are far more limited because you travel so much. I know a kid who had to take all classes before noon and couldn't take any Friday classes.

 

Also, many D-I schools have larger rosters and more players in the pipeline, so it's unusual to play as a freshman or even a sophomore -- whereas in D-III you might have more of a chance. Of course when you do start in D-I you'll get more exposure, though a good D-III team will still attract attention and a well-connected coach will make sure that his top players get placed in the best summer leagues.

 

D-I schools play more games per season, with the exception of the Ivies, which play the same number as most D-III schools. You'll also face more structured off-season training, such as early morning (6 a.m.) lifting at some schools. D-III schools also do off-season training, but they tend to be a little more relaxed on when kids need to be in the weight room.

 

I could go on, but at least this is a taste.

Thanks very much. Interesting things to think about.

kevkev29,

 

Interesting question.  I really think this is a very personal and situational decision....it is going to be very hard to generalize.  I can try to share the logic. 

 

My oldest son was recruited across mostly mid & lower D1s and academic D3s.  He wanted to study engineering and be challenged on the baseball field.  It took us two years to find the right situation and fit mostly because we didn't know all the possibilities. 

 

We learned through trial and error (and HSBBWeb) that Engineering and D1 baseball was going to be next to impossible due to lab scheduling, travel, number of games and workload. He really liked the idea of D3 (less games, less travel, etc) but wanted a slightly higher level of overall competition.  What he eventually decided on was a HYBRID between D1 and D3.  It is a D1 conference that offers less games, less travel (like a D3),  strong competition at the beginning of the season, and enough time to get his work done during the week.  We went to a few conference games while he was in high school, and he thought he could earn a spot in the weekend rotation by his soph year thereby not travelling to mid-week games (interfering with labs).  He was right.

 

It has worked out extremely well, but it took us an awful lot of time to find this perfect situation for him.  He did a great job of considering every angle, and listening to the other coaches that were interested in him.  In the end, I know he would make the same call again.   

 

If this hybrid approach appeals to you, feel free to send me a PM Dialogue to discuss further.  There is more than one way to skin the cat.  Good luck!

 

 

This is a wonderful question, in my view and hopefully there will be a wide diversity of responses.

If someone can play at a top D3 and be a top player at that level, he can probably compete well at a level well above low level D1 schools. I am not one to say D3 teams can compete well at the D1 level.  There is little doubt, though, that by the sophomore year, some top D3 players can succeed very well throughout most of D1 baseball when we get outside the top 50 or so programs.

One reason this happens somewhat relates to the fact college recruiting is often times quite regional. That is mandated by different facts but recruiting budget is one.  As a result, in a State like California, there are far more D1 players than D1 openings.  Some of the top level D3 coaches know this and use the Stanford Camp, as one example only, and  others, to find the players with D1 skills but who might not get a D1 slot, just purely due to numbers. Taken from a different perspective, this is also why some very fine players in States like Wisconsin, NJ, and NY end up at those much larger D3 schools rather than D1's throughout the South and West.

Other factors include size, strength and projections for players during the evaluation time leading into their senior year. Our son went from 5'11" and 149 lbs as a HS senior quarterback to just over 6'1" and 185 by the time he was a college junior. During recruiting, the main D1 program  to which our son aspired did not feel he had the strength to sustain a full D1 season(Fall ball included.)  By the time he was a junior in college, he had a number of overtures to transfer to mid and higher level D1s, before the transfer rule was changed.

For our son, D3 won out over the JC option and 2 late arriving local D1 programs which lost players to the draft, attrition and grades.  Some reasons included a coaching staff which made it very clear how much they wanted him, the quality and caliber of the education available, small class sizes, the ability to graduate in 4 years, spectacular almost 1:1 additional assistance from a faculty made up of all professors,  the great area of the University, being away from home, and a coach who presented him with a plan of action where he could play from day one, the opportunity to prove himself in top Summer Wood bat leagues, progression year by year, exposure to scouts and the challenge to be as good as his coaches believed he could be.

Outcome: in 2 of his 4 years, our son played in the final game of the West Regional, the 2nd of which involved he and his roommate leading a freshman and sophomore dominated team. He was voted a 1st team All-American. He graduated with his degree in 4 years.  Had 2 amazing summers in the NECBL being voted an All Star in each Summer.  He was drafted and proved he belonged along side 1st rounders before 2 shoulder surgeries ended the baseball side of the story.(He can tell great stories about facing Randy Johnson and also the 102mph fastball of a 19 year old Homer Bailey, among others.) Today, he is a  member of a D1 coaching staff. One important reason is the very strong support of that college coach who saw him at the Stanford Camp and saw something in the future which most didn't and stands by him and his baseball ability, now as a coach and teacher, some 13 years later.

kevkev29, hopefully there are some aspects and considerations here which might be helpful for you if these types of options might be considerations.

I can attest to the time workout at a D1 - I was a walk-on volleyball player at Cal State Fullerton.  We had to be in the training room at noon every day.  The baseball team started rolling into training at the same time.  We finished our workouts around 6pm and the baseball team was still out on the field. 

 

We took our son to a prospect camp at CSUF in August and they were very candid with the players that practices were 6-8 hours.  So it sounds like that's pretty much the same routine now, a "few" years later.

 

Sadly, I had to leave the sport of volleyball due to conflict with college labs which were required for my major to graduate.  It was a tough decision, but I had to choose my priority.  All good stuff to consider.

STB,

These are generalities.

One D3 school that recruited my son had their athletes have classes done before noon with no Friday classes in the spring, They also had off season conditioning and training at 6:00 am.

D1 squads are limited to 35 players I believe. Their is no limit in D3. Last year my son's school brought in 25 players. They do not do that every year but it can happen. Many D3 schools have more than 35.

Many D3 rosters are full of kids who went to D# because they would start as a Freshmen. Remember D3 schools are full  of all conference and all state players that did not project to the next level in D1.

 

Pick a school because of fit, and yes baseball should be part of that. Several D1 schools asked to come see my son pitch his senior year. By that time he had decided that he wanted to go to a smaller Liberal Arts school. The schools that wanted to see him did not fit that profile, so he thanked them for their interest but he was happy with his choices. 

 

Find out what your son wants out of a school, academics, Baseball, and campus life. And target the best fit that also wants him. 

 

And as always Fenway's advice is spot on. Take him up on his generous offer.

Thanks for that insight. This web site is very valuable and I again appreciate your time and everyone else so far who has responded to a tough question that I'm sure quite a few wrestle with every year.

To some extent this follows on fenway's post, but is something I should have referenced.

As a D3 player and now 5 year D1 assistant, the view of our son is that the hours isn't what makes the difference, even though the hours are different. His perspective, if I understand correctly, is the level of  focus and level of execution which is required at the D1 level, as contrasted with that which can be accepted at the D3 level, is drastically different. Add to that is the expectation that same level must come every day from all 35 players.  While the D1 practices in our son's programs have been 3 hours, on the clock, every single minute was planned by the coaching staff. Players(every one on the roster) were expected to focus and execute  every minute of those 3 hours. Not only that, the expected level of execution did not allow for mental mistakes. Stated differently, execution at the highest level, for every part of a practice was expected at the D1 level. Anything less is not okay and it didn't matter if the player is a walk on and player 35.

 

 

BLD,

Thanks for pointing out that these are generalizations. Of course they are! They're not rules, and I hope no one would take them that way. But as with many generalizations they contain a large kernel of truth. There are always exceptions, to be sure, but the bottom line is that D-I schools will own your kid far more than D-III schools. Since they travel more, practice longer and often have very long weekends, they typically limit the class choices your kid will have. Does that happen at D-III? Sure, but far less often. Do some D-III schools have early morning weightlifting? Sure, but it happens far more often at D-I. Do some D-III schools overrecruit and potentially leave your kid hanging? Yes. Do some have larger rosters? Yes. But it happens far more often at D-I schools. Then there are the schools, both D-I and D-III, that won't tell your kid the entire truth -- such as whether they've recruited another SS or catcher. There are schools that tell kids they didn't bring in another freshman at your kid's position -- but not mention that they are bringing in two as transfers. Yes, that happens at D-III. But far, far more frequently at D-I. D-I coaches get fired far more often than D-III coaches, and there's a reason: they have to win. That's why the pressure is far more intense in every way at the D-I level. To suggest otherwise is not to be fair even if there are exceptions. But the good news is this: whatever baseball level your kid chooses, whether D-I or D-III, in all likelihood he'll acclimate to the program and his role and love his baseball experience.

 

As for the quality of the players, it's far more complicated than what BLD suggests. When recruiting, college coaches often get a snapshot of players, thinking they know what someone will do based on a showcase or a game or two. But there are average players who get in a good zone for a couple of games or at a showcase and get recruited to D-I. And there are lots of D-I kids who don't want to wait to play and choose instead to go with D-III. All this stuff happens. Pro scouts sometimes laugh at college recruiters because the scouts don't think the college coaches are good at projecting how good a kid will be. So lots of great players end up at different levels. If you see a lot of D-I and D-III players, particularly once you get beyond the top tier D-I schools, you'll see a larger percentage of studs at D-I but there won't be a huge distinction among the rest of the players. If anything, the difference is all about bench and pitching depth.

 

The best advice is to do your research and due diligence. Ask lots of questions. Know exactly what type of college and baseball program your kid wants. Find out how much your kid wants to play freshman and sophomore year. Find out how wedded your kid is to their position and role. Size up the coach and learn everything about him. Ask other families at the college and have your kid ask other players there. Find out why some kids didn't choose a program. Learn about the off-season training regimen. Ask about class scheduling and travel. Do your best online research to see who's committed already. Go to showcases and college camps and speak to everyone you can.

 

Ultimately, everyone agrees with principle number one: find the right school and the fit. But do your research first.

 

I too will be happy to have a dialogue if you wish. I've learned a ton these past couple of years and have spoken to lots of coaches, showcase organizers, pro scouts, and families. Everyone has their own perspective, so take all of the advice on this board and see what works best for you. But again, do your research. That's the best way to make sure that your son won't regret his decision.

 

Great post steal the base,

 

Most of the differences have been covered here, and I can provide another data point on the Engineering and D1 baseball. It really is not possible, except for a handful of programs, do your homework and look at the majors stated on rosters. 

 

I would also add that there is a probably a wider range of variations in DIII baseball than D1. A top program DIII that is consistently in the top 20 will have a lot more D1 players on the roster and be structured "D1 like" than one that is never ranked or makes it to the post season. 

 

I would also add that a structured and hard working player will progress faster and develop at the DIII level vs one who has to have it crammed down his throat. D1's do this more so than DIII's because they have more control and are "paying players", I know my son says there are guys in his DIII program who would be D1 studs if they put the work in but they don't for whatever reason. They compete, but not at level they could. They also have players who were overlooked or underdeveloped out of HS and work their tail off and get drafted. (and this is at one of the more structured programs)

 

My 2 cents on a good thread.

Right on the mark, BOF. I would actually expand your D-III quality net to about 50 or 60 programs, say the top two in each of the main D-III divisions. And at the good academic D-III schools, you will often find kids who either turned down Ivy or Patriot League or similar offers or simply wanted a liberal arts college experience. I spent some time last year following a couple of Ivy and Patriot League schools, seeing them play a few times, and except for some of the pitchers who threw near 90, the rest of the players were no different and no better than the starters in the quality D-III teams that I saw play. Now if you compare any D-III school to Stanford or Michigan, to name a couple of high academic schools, it's not close, though there are still some D-III studs who could have gone to these programs ... and BOF is right that there are players who develop after high school who star at D-III schools and get drafted.

 

Scouting baseball talent is an imperfect science, far less precise and rigorous than football and basketball. Coaches try by looking at pitching velocity, bat speed, pop time, and the 60-yard dash. But those are imperfect measures of quality. That's why there's so much talent spread everywhere. And if your kid doesn't happen to hail from Texas, Florida, or California, where more coaches and scouts are looking, they may not get noticed and therefore may end up at a less visible school. But they can still prove themselves, put up good numbers, and play great summer ball. That will indeed get noticed.

Very interesting thread. Thanks to all.  It's way premature to even think about this for my kid, because  he's a 2017 and we don't really know what kind of HS ballplayer or even student he will prove to be, what kind of college he'll want to attend, whether or not he'll want to play baseball there, and what he'll want to study.  

But if his academic ability, baseball ability, and interests continued on the path they have been on, he'll want to play ball,  he'll want to go to a very good school, and he'll want to do engineering or pre-med. While he would tell you today that he wants to play college ball, I wonder if he even should even worry about that, unless it's at a DIII or at some other school where he can play and still take the classes required and get the grades required to go to graduate school. 

 

So the question we could  be looking at is not how to get a baseball scholarship, but how to use baseball as one factor that gets him into a top school that he might not otherwise get into.  If Harvard (to take the most crazy example) recruits too many catchers, catcher #3 is still a Harvard student, even  after he gets cut, right?  And any money Harvard gives him is academic money, not athletic  money, so that is still there too...?

 

Oh, well, plenty of time to worry about that down the road. Now he just needs to worry about pulling his Spanish grade up and hitting varsity pitching in fall ball.

That's an interesting sub-topic: Using the sport to get into a school the individual would not otherwise get into.  Along those lines, and staying with high academic D3 schools, does anyone know if the D3 coaches are given a number of "slots" to use for those players with good grades and good scores, but who, without the baseball skills, would otherwise not get in to the school.

JCG,

 

Harvard, all of the Ivy league schools, and most of the very high academic D3 schools do not give athletic scholarships or academic scholarships.  Any money distributed is need-based.  And you are correct - once you are in, you are in.

It's pretty difficult to get academic money at the Ivies and other top notch academic schools but it is true that if he did qualify for academic money it is renewable as long as he keeps his grade point at a certain level.

Every student who gets cut from a varsity team at a D1 scholarship granting school, a D1 non-scholarship granting school, and a D3 school is still a student of that school....assuming of course that all matriculation requirements are being met.

 

If an athletic scholarship is pulled, then it means that particular source of funding is not available for the subsequent year. Then it is up to the student and his family to decide whether to remain at that school as a student-only.

JCG,

 

Your point is important: while baseball is the reason we're all on this site, most important for your kid is to attend a school where he's happy if he either gets cut or injured. As for your Harvard question, note that Ivies and D-III schools do not give athletic scholarships (some Patriot League schools have a small pot of baseball money), and both the Ivies and Little Ivy D-III schools like Amherst, Wesleyan, Swarthmore and Vassar do not give academic merit scholarships. These top schools are all need blind and provide financial aid solely based on need, which each school determines according to its formula. So unless your family can demonstrate need, there won't be any money coming. Other schools, however, do have academic merit scholarships for their top applicants. Unlike an Amherst or a Harvard, which don't worry about getting the best students in the country, these schools offer academic money to snare kids who otherwise might go to an Amherst or Harvard. So it's important to do your research. And there's a wrinkle: if you want your kid to do Early Decision, these merit scholarships are often not decided till the regular admissions process. So there's no guarantee even if your kid is a great student.

 

It's a complicated game, but it's great you're getting started early!

 

There is no academic money at the Ivies.

To Kevkev29,

 

Yes, most D-III coaches are given slots, and they typically have a certain number of recruits that they can support through admissions. That's the case at D-I schools as well. Usually they get an early read on an applicant, with admissions giving a thumbs up or down ... and if it's thumbs down, then the coach has to drop that recruit. I know a kid who was asked to take his SATs again, and I know another kid who was rejected because the entire admissions packet, beyond the test scores and grades, had problems. So an early read is not airtight but it is a very good indication. At some schools, the coach presents admissions with a group of recruits, and as long as the group average is acceptable, all of the recruits get in (though the ones lower on the scale still have to cross an SAT and grade threshold). You might want to google the Academic Index -- schools often use that to determine who is eligible. Some sites enable you to calculate it for your kid, and some schools will tell you what their cut-off is.

Quote from Steal This Base:

The best advice is to do your research and due diligence. Ask lots of questions. Know exactly what type of college and baseball program your kid wants. Find out how much your kid wants to play freshman and sophomore year. Find out how wedded your kid is to their position and role. Size up the coach and learn everything about him. Ask other families at the college and have your kid ask other players there. Find out why some kids didn't choose a program. Learn about the off-season training regimen. Ask about class scheduling and travel. Do your best online research to see who's committed already. Go to showcases and college camps and speak to everyone you can.

 

Great post, I could not agree more. I have seen too many parents and young men not do this and then be surprised when they show up on campus. Do your homework.

Thanks Green Light...I was thinking that was the case. I was lumping the Ivies in with some of the other high end academic schools where there is some money but only for the student that is off the chart smart.(35,36 act, top 1 or 2 % of their class)

 

 

There are slots reserved for student/athletes who need a boost in elite D3, Patriot  and Ivy admission.  It varies by school and circumstance every year.   This is a question you absolutely need to ask the coach at the appropriate time. 

This thread has been amazingly helpful. The recruiting process for my son has been EXTREMELY stressful, disappointing, and humbling. For my part in it, rarely have been so frustrated as I have been with this process. D3 is an option for my son and this thread has been very useful.

Notex, My son is at a D3. We couldn't be more happy with the education he is getting.His head coach knows it is academics first and and the coach said it would always be baseball that gives...I think he is a man of his word.

JCG,

 

My son absolutely was helped getting admitted to an Ivy because of baseball. (although he is somewhere else) And your right, once your in your in, however as they say be careful what you wish for since your son will be competing with academically very gifted kids who only have one focus. My advice for you and your son is to keep driving for good grades it will open more doors than baseball will. There is also a lot more academic money available than there is athletic. Not to say that baseball is not a focus or a big part of the equation, but good grades open up many more possibilities. We found that only a handful of competitive D1 programs could be managed doing a hard science or engineering program, Stanford being one. 

 

Good luck.

My cousin was pre med at Harvard. He also ran track. He said the only thing hard about Harvard was getting accepted. He added he had mostly GAs through four years there. Yale won the NCAA hockey championship last year. I doubt it was with a bunch of skating valedictorians. It's not that these schools are full of dummies. But my cousin said any reasonably bright kid can make it through ok. 

 

When my son was a hs soph I went to the NESCAC tournament. I explained to the parents I spoke with he was considered D3 to mid major D1 at the time. They told me there were many kids in the league who could have played mid major. One thing parents from two NESCACs offered was if there's a test and a game the player won't be on the bus. They also said their son's had challenging professors since NESCACs aren't universities with graduate schools (except Tufts).

RJM - Seriously..."reasonably bright kid"?  I think your cousin is either brilliant, or trivialized the brightest 1-2% in the world, or knows many people that took less than difficult majors which can be the case at any college.  All majors are not created equal.  If your cousin found pre-med at Harvard easy then he is possibly a 1% among 1%.  I want him to be my new Dr.

 

All - I think there are very bright kids everywhere at every school that choose exactly how challenged they want to be, or are forced through competition to find less difficult majors.  The same can be said when choosing a college baseball program.  I've heard University stories of business school admin folks hanging out in the engineering building after exams looking for new business student recruits.   Everybody knows someone who went to Harvard or another school of this caliber.  Calling them "reasonably bright" is a bit of an exaggeration  IMHO. It is what they do with the opportunity once they get there that defines them whether it is baseball or academics.   

 

It has been suggested several times by Steal This Base and others in this thread to do your due diligence and research to know what you are getting into.  Golden advice.

Another great discussion here on HSBW!

 

Tons of nuggets of info.  

 

Comparing D1 vs D3...  As noted previously, both have top academic options, competitive teams, strong players, long hours, etc.

 

Somebody may have touched on this but I want to stress this point...

In season schedule is WAY different.

 

There are many D3 programs that will never see the inside of a hotel room (or will rarely).  They tend to have limited mid week travel and usually do a Saturday double header.

 

D1 schedules will include mid week games every week.  Many weeks will include 2 mid week games.  Add to that weekend series are typically going to be Fri, Sat, Sun.  What does this mean?  Time away from the class room.... potentially lots of time away!  Expect that most mid-major programs will not be flying.  Classes even get missed for home games sometimes.  Over the course of an almost 60 game season, missing a class here and a class there begins to add up.

 

That is a major consideration in my opinion.

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com/bus_tour

www.twitter.com/PlayInSchool

 

 

 

FenwaySouth,

 

I wouldn't be too hard on RJM for not paying the proper obeisance to Harvard. Go look at the admissions scatterplots and you will see any number of kids who fall into the average at best range for GPA and SAT/ACT scores. Last summer, the Harvard baseball recruiting coach told a bunch of kids at a showcase camp that they needed a minimum combined SAT of 1700 to be considered -- something I couldn't believe so I kept asking people and according to a few of the kids that's exactly what he said. There have been a number of articles in the press reporting some real stretched admission standards for Harvard athletes. Note that Harvard teams give the admissions office a slate of recruits, and as long as the average is acceptable, the weaker kids get in because the ones with the top Academic Index pull them through. Harvard also admits a large number of legacies, and for the obvious reason: alumni are the cash cows for the university's mega endowment, and Harvard doesn't want to piss them off by not accepting their kids. And many of these legacies are mere decently smart students, or as RJM put it, reasonably bright kids. Our public high school is one of the most Type-A competitive in the country, and among the very few recent Harvard admits was a legacy who was smart enough but nowhere near the 1-2 percent brightest in the world that FenwaySouth says are at Harvard. He stood probably at the top quarter of his class, and had no other claims to fame that would make him stand out at Harvard, but he got in over lots of others who were arguably more qualified.

 

Now is FenwaySouth correct that a large number of Harvard students are among the very brightest? Yes, of course. But that can also be said of Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Amherst, Pomona, Vassar and lots of other schools. Let's also be clear: there are top 1-2 percent brightest students at schools far below the top tier. The reason they didn't attend the top reputation schools vary: they received an academic award; they were first generation students and wanted to stay near home, especially if that saved them money; they preferred to attend school in a city like DC where the internship opportunities are the best in the world. Also, faculty at, say, the top 150 schools are equally talented -- many of them teach at these schools simply because there was an opening when they were applying, and most stay at these schools and get tenure there and build a life and have no reason to leave for another prestigious school. So kids at all of these schools will get a great education if they put the time and effort in. As for Harvard, it's the world's best brand name for higher education, and kids going there gain value through that association. If that's important, then factor that into your choice. But there are so many great schools out there with amazing professors and alumni networks. So find the right school for your kid and never look back.

 

Excellent post, PIS. Asking these specific questions about travel should be part of any recruit's checklist.

 

Point taken.........but. I always suggest a student avoid asking any questions that are  clearly and prominently answered on the school's website...especially if we are talking academically selective schools.

 

Maybe you didn't mean he should ask the coach these questions.

 

One of the best ways to find out about baseball life, scheduling and travel is to ask current or recently graduated players. But it's also okay to ask the recruiting coaches, particularly during the early college visit and fact-finding stages. But the players are the best sources of information because they live it. So make sure to meet some of them early or to have your kid do a long weekend at the school before making a final decision.

Following up on that point, if you are asking all of these questions about games, travel, study time, etc., while absolutely important, are some coaches going to interpret that as a potential problem kid who made not be as committed to the program as a kid who may not be asking those questions? Tough call with a lot of these areas of questions.

All of that is good advice.

 

For many families it would be a logistical challenge to meet current players early at a bunch of schools the player is considering.

 

The way I see it if a kid is a stud, the less fine-tuned he has to be about his questions. For a kid who thinks he needs to demonstrate a pre-existing interest in a program to advance his candidacy, I think the questions need to be more refined.

 

Team schedules (and records) are prominently displayed on the team's website. If a kid thinks he needs to show interest in a program to improve his chances, then asking a coach about the schedule (or the record) runs the risk of showing indifference at best, I think.

 

I agree that general questions about "baseball life" are best answered by current players. And your advice to have an official or unofficial weekend visit before committing is a good one too, I think

Steal This Base,

 

I saw some high school/college scatterplots a few years ago, as I have a good friend who is a guidance councilor.  It is a fantastic tool, and I saw nothing average on GPA, SAT/ACT scores for Harvard acceptances.  Perhaps you are looking at something different?  In my experience & research, the general Harvard population still ranks among the top in admission metrics, and that really is the bottom line for me.  Are there admissions exceptions, sure but they are very few.  Some legacies get the benefit of the doubt just as some athletes do, but it is a small group that may get boosted by the general "H" population a la Academic Index.   I'm not an "H" lover nor am I defending it, but I know "H" isn't about to let its overall admissions numbers go to pot because of the world branding you mentioned.  If someone doesn't have the "H" admissions numbers, it would be best to be a legacy or an athlete with strong numbers to make the AdComm decision an easier one.  AdComms have very little wiggle room with the AI per the Ivy President Councils agreement for athletes, but they have a lot of wiggle room with legacies with an incoming class.  I'm willing to concede there may be something going on there.

 

In our past "H" recruiting experience a few years ago (Walsh/LoRicco) wanted 2100 on SATs for recruits, and clearly communicated that expectation to my son.  Son achieved the number but decided on another school for his own reasons.  Was it smart for them to set expectation high, I think so.  Possibly the "H" sales pitch has been recently modified at camps to start low, and we both know their Admission standards hasn't dropped 400 points.  Most likely, Harvard is using 1700 as their marketing number for the very few athletic exceptions they can take every year.  Most people are going to like the 1700 number more than the 2100.  In addition it may be a way for them to scare recruits away with 2100, or get them to retake the SAT to bump their number and help a future teammate.   I'm very clear on how the AI works, and you've made a good point on the legacys-endowment-connect the-dots-and-follow-the-money-scenario.  I also agree there are so many great schools out there with amazing professors and alumni networks. For those that have achieved on the baseball field and in the classroom there are many choices out there.

 

These are all good points, and no one wants to risk turning off a coach. But perhaps if a coach is turned off by harmless questions, that might be a red flag about the coach. And as long as questions are phrased positively and enthusiastically as general queries rather than points of contention, coaches are happy to discuss how the program works. And sometimes we as parents can play that role if we're visiting the school with our kids the spring or winter before and do an early walk through with a coach. For example, "I'm curious ... what's the travel schedule like? ... I'm curious, how does the class scheduling work for players? ... Is there an adviser who works with the players to make sure their class schedule fits with their baseball schedule?" Those are pretty innocent questions. But good for fact-finding. Now yes, coaches don't like overly involved parents, so avoid being too aggressive or saying how great your kid is or asking whether he'll play a lot or anything obnoxious like that ... but they do accept the fact that we might have some questions about the life our kids will lead at their schools. As for your kids speaking with current players early in the process, there are ways to do that. For example, this baseball world is small enough that there are fewer than six degrees of separation between a current player and your kid. One way to do it is to look at kids you know at a particular school who might link you to someone on the baseball team. But regardless of what you do early on, your kid should make that campus visit before deciding. That's a must. And yes, you're right that there's no reason to inquire about any of the information that's easily available on the web. But that won't tell you about course scheduling and travel commitments. Baseball is very demanding from a scheduling and traveling point of view, perhaps more so than most other sports. So figuring out how to balance baseball and one's educational aspirations is very important. Most coaches respect and understand that. But if they don't, and there are too many examples of that, buyer beware.

 

FenwaySouth,

 

I think we're on the same page here. No question Harvard has amazing admissions numbers. I was just noting that the glass was maybe one-quarter or one-eighth empty, while you're saying it's three-quarters or seven-eighths full. But even one-eighth means a lot of students. But yes, there are countless brains there. There are also a number of simply good students who either score well or have connections or come from a geographically distant part of the country ... generally no better or worse than some of the really good students at, say, Patriot League schools. Their advantage: they get the Harvard halo. As for the 1700 SAT, you may be right that their message is now to bring in a few studs whose lower scores can slide through admissions because they have higher scoring teammates. Here's a 2008 New York Times piece on Harvard basketball and academic standards ... and there are other articles ... who knows if this is bleeding into other sports: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/sports/ncaabasketball/02harvard.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I don't doubt that the recruiting coach said something about a 1,700 SAT, but there is no way a baseball player (Steal This Base: I think the basketball program is a whole different ball of wax, frankly with totally unique standards) with that low a score would be admitted to Harvard without some other highly significant mitigating factor (i.e. a legacy, a background that showed triumph over real adversity, etc.). Call me a cynic but that benchmark of 1,700 was probably designed to get the kid to attend one or more of Harvard's camps.

Also, I'm pretty sure that NCAA rules state that any high school kid who wants to pay the price of admission can attend a college "camp" (including Harvard's)--even if his SATs are 1,200.