D1 versus D2/D3

ClevelandDad,

I have always appreciated your point of view. I love D3 baseball. Unfortunately I do not have much input on this particular subject. Son was heavily recruited by many D3's mostly form the mid east region. But he did not garner much D1 interest.

This is not a bad thing. He had a chance to be looked at at by several Large d1 schools. He declined because he wanted to go to a small school. The schools in D1 that fit the profile he was looking for were not interested in him.

He is very happy with his choice though. He got a lot of playing time as a Freshman, and was very successful.

Several players he knows took the other path, walking on at the large state school. They had opportunities but could not crack the travel roster and rarely suited up for a game. Those players are now out of baseball or have transferred to a DII or DIII schools, because they all realized it was important for them to play and compete. Many of these players and there parents wish they would have gone my sons route and chose DIII from the start.

Thanks

I have posted about this in the past as my son was one of those that had the opportunity to go to several mid major D1’s that were either in the middle of the pack to the bottom end of their conference, or playing for a northern team buried in early season snow. I can tell you he had a lot more fun playing for a winning program (and getting to play as a freshmen) than he would of (possibly) riding the pine and playing for a losing program. His team was ranked number 1 for a good part of the season and was one game shy of going to the DIII CWS and will likely be battling for a trip this year - it really does not get much better.
When I take this and the fact that he would have been buried trying to manage his academic load of a science/eng major together with baseball, plus the smaller school environment, he (with some We ) really made the right decision. Frankly the whole DIII thing sprung out at the last minute and we should have done more homework on this aspect of the recruiting earlier. It likely would have worked out the same because of the good match with his program, but it likely would have been a lot less stressful.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
I have posted about this in the past as my son was one of those that had the opportunity to go to several mid major D1’s that were either in the middle of the pack to the bottom end of their conference, or playing for a northern team buried in early season snow. I can tell you he had a lot more fun playing for a winning program (and getting to play as a freshmen) than he would of (possibly) riding the pine and playing for a losing program. His team was ranked number 1 for a good part of the season and was one game shy of going to the DIII CWS and will likely be battling for a trip this year - it really does not get much better.
When I take this and the fact that he would have been buried trying to manage his academic load of a science/eng major together with baseball, plus the smaller school environment, he (with some We ) really made the right decision. Frankly the whole DIII thing sprung out at the last minute and we should have done more homework on this aspect of the recruiting earlier. It likely would have worked out the same because of the good match with his program, but it likely would have been a lot less stressful.

Very nice feedback. Makes senses on finding the right fit both academically and from a baseball perspective regardless if you have D1 and D2/D3 options.

Regardless of the fit, do you think that the talent of a role player/lower roster player at a mid-major average D1 program is similar to the starter or larger contributor at a stronger D3 school?

quote:

Originally posted by DAD_4CATCH_ESTAR27:
Regardless of the fit, do you think that the talent of a role player/lower roster player at a mid-major average D1 program is similar to the starter or larger contributor at a stronger D3 school?

Dad, most certainly there is variation and no one right answer to your question, in my opinion. I have a view that top recruits at Cortland State might be equal to or slightly more skilled than some lower roster players in some of the Ivy's and/or Metro Atlantic Conference type schools. On the other hand, I don't view top recruits at a school like Chapman in California to be at the overall talent level of the lower Pac 12 schools or Big West schools, coming out of HS. Again, these are general perspectives, only.
By the junior year, however, the answer, in my view, can be distinctly different. By the sophomore and junior year, the level of play and talent is going to be a reflection of playing and, ESPECIALLY, the quality of coaching in each situation. With those 2-3 years, the top players at top DIII's can often be top players at mid-level or perhaps even top 75 DI's, if they have been coached well. The mid-level freshman at the DI can be in the same situation if they have been well coached and worked very, very hard with their opportunities.
My personal view is the well coached top level DIII will likely be a much better and more complete talent by the junior year contrasted with a DI role player who has not been particularly well coached or who didn't do the work to get on the field and perform.
We used to see DIII to DI happen with some frequency before the NCAA changed the rules. Now, the one year sit rule and the potential loss of college credits/units with a transfer leaves us without these comparisons for reference. For your frame of reference, our son was a DIII player who was drafted by Toronto and did fine in Milb. He also coached at the DIII level and is now coaching at what most would consider a mid-level/mid-major DI with very high academic admission standards. I posted earlier this year on one of his players who was cut as a freshman and came back and was named a freshman All-America DH in 2012. Hard work and good coaching can make huge differences from ages 18-20.

Hi CD, this is very timely. Thanks for starting the thread, it hits home for us, as does the 'pre med at D1' thread.

I am not sure I have much to offer on the topic, and simply look forward to learning more.

We need to come to resolution on this over the next 2-3 weeks, I think.

quote:

Originally posted by DAD_4CATCH_ESTAR27:

Regardless of the fit, do you think that the talent of a role player/lower roster player at a mid-major average D1 program is similar to the starter or larger contributor at a stronger D3 school?

I think that you can categorize the top 30 D3’s as being similar to mid major D1’s as far as skill level and being able to break into the roster the first year or two. My son’s team was stacked last year two freshmen got meaningful playing time. This year they will probably try to work in a few more since there is a large Sr class so they will try to work in a few more so they get some experience to prepare them for next year. Once you get out of the top 30 I think the skill level drops off considerably so a player going to a top 30 D3 program should expect a pretty high competitive level. I know they had 6 pitchers throwing in the 90’s last year, and their pitching program is as comprehensive as most D1’s.

I guess there are many considerations that cross divisions/conferences ('we' are going through some of these):

- winning team vs losing team
- will I play right away
- will I ever play
- do I go to a 'big' school that I like, but may never play, just to say I played for them
- major conference vs. mid or lower conference
- love the coach, 'hate' the school
- love the school, 'hate' the coach
- will I play any teams close to home?

My two cents....I've channeled my inner-TRHit.

D1 or D3 doesn't matter. We looked at both. It came down to this...

1) Go where you can get the best education in your field of study

2) Go where you can play

That's it.

BOF, how would you categorize a 'top' D3? One that is dominant in its conference, or that regularly goes on to regionals? Or has a history at the D3 CWS?

If a player's goal is great baseball at highest possible level (for him), BUT also playing time, great education, and taking his game to the highest possible level, is it better to be on a D3 team that is among the best in the conference (but not national top 30), and would give opportunity for more playing time; vs., a mid major that is not a powerhouse in their conference, probably less playing time at 1st, but the baseball development benefits of D1?


These are question with lots of potential answers and opinions.

Fenway, good points as always.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I guess there are many considerations that cross divisions/conferences ('we' are going through some of these):

- winning team vs losing team
- will I play right away
- will I ever play
- do I go to a 'big' school that I like, but may never play, just to say I played for them
- major conference vs. mid or lower conference
- love the coach, 'hate' the school
- love the school, 'hate' the coach
- will I play any teams close to home?

Sultan, Interesting list and certainly all important considerations. To, perhaps, add to your list is information from a local blog which is operated by a former MLB scout. He is a knowledgeable guy who can seem, to me at least, to be a bit controversial, at times.
In reviewing the Northern CA college programs for the Spring of 2012, he gave his highest ranking to a college staff because the team got better, and better and better every week. During the last 1/2 of the college season, they took 2-3 from each team they played and all but one was higher in the standings heading into the weekend. His view was a college team which improves over the course of a college season is a "sign" and good evidence of a solid coaching job.
One other aspect of "loving" and "hating" coaches: I would venture to say it is the exception when college players "love" their coaches. They probably like the assistant's more than they do the head guy. What is at the core is they "respect" the coaches. The major reason they "respect" them is because the coaches develop their talent and make them better players from game to game and week to week and season to season, and the coaches work harder at doing that than the players.

There are plenty of kids playing at quality D3 programs who could play mid major D1. Since a mid major prospect usually isn't thinking pro future first, they are very likely to take the stronger educational choice. A handful of D3 players are late bloomers who develop into players who could play major D1 and are draftable (infield's son).

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
My two cents....I've channeled my inner-TRHit.

D1 or D3 doesn't matter. We looked at both. It came down to this...

1) Go where you can get the best education in your field of study

2) Go where you can play

That's it.

great post,,that is IT! if your good they will find you..

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballmomandCEP:
BOF, how would you categorize a 'top' D3? One that is dominant in its conference, or that regularly goes on to regionals? Or has a history at the D3 CWS?

If a player's goal is great baseball at highest possible level (for him), BUT also playing time, great education, and taking his game to the highest possible level, is it better to be on a D3 team that is among the best in the conference (but not national top 30), and would give opportunity for more playing time; vs., a mid major that is not a powerhouse in their conference, probably less playing time at 1st, but the baseball development benefits of D1?


These are question with lots of potential answers and opinions.

I think fenway summed it up best.

I would add that go where the coach has a plan for you.

In my son's case he no matter who we talked to he thought he had a chance of breaking in during his freshmen season. I think he kind of thought to himself that "oh I am going to a DIII so I will get to play as a freshmen....once he walked on the field and was looking at all of these guys in the eye and seeing the competition - it was a bit of a wake up call. He worked very hard and earned one of those slots, but he has friends who played less, but they were no less part of the team.

My experience at D3 is that if you go in with a D1 mindset, you are at risk.

What I mean by this is that a lot of guys see baseball as a primary motivator for going to college. If you're a D1 athlete receiving money to play baseball, it logically takes a spot almost higher than academics at times in your priorities. At most D3 schools, the mindset is not the same. Guys play baseball because they love it but also know that sometimes school work (especially labs or grad school interviews!) will be more important. Sometimes another extracurricular activity will be more important (internship interview, presenting some undergraduate research, etc) and D3 schools can accommodate this mixture of priorities. It's somewhat hard to explain because everyone still takes baseball very seriously at these levels!

Guys that go to D3 schools expecting to be a baseball player and little else (this applies to division 1's as well, but oftentimes better support systems are in place in these programs) will oftentimes underperform academically because they are not into it. Or worse, if baseball goes away due to injury or some other circumstance, these kids don't do well at school.

I think the main lesson is that you shouldn't compromise on the right SCHOOL because of playing time. If your perfect school is a losing D1 and an iffy fit D3 can offer more playing time and success, that does not mean you should go to that D3. Deciding D3 based solely on baseball is a risky venture.

then its your coaches fault,,If you are an OUTSTANDING d3 player dont you think the school wants you to go pro? dont you think the coach wants you to go pro? dont you think college coaches have connections to pro scouts? how many No's did you answer?

There is some very good insight on this thread already, much of which is very true and extremely important points pertaining to the college search.

I hesitate to use the word "expert" because I believe it is relatively arbitrary and quite odd to be self-endorsed. However, as CD subliminally alluded to, I do feel as though I can provide some here with a rather unique perspective on this very topic due to my overall experience at both levels. I will try to provide my answer/opinion to each question asked on this thread thus far as well as attempt to provide some further insight into the detailed similarities and differences I have found.

quote:

Originally posted by DAD_4CATCH_ESTAR27:

Regardless of the fit, do you think that the talent of a role player/lower roster player at a mid-major average D1 program is similar to the starter or larger contributor at a stronger D3 school?

Great question, but unfortunately I don't think that question can be answered with any measurable level of exactness. There are some starters at Division III schools that wouldn't start at Division I schools, and there are some starters at Division I schools that wouldn't start at Division III schools. I have seen Division I starters transfer to Division III schools and never get any playing time. Conversely, I have seen Division III players transfer to Division I schools and excel at extremely high levels (Charlie Furbush is probably the most well-known example of this). In general, and I emphasize that statement, I would say that your statement could probably be true for a good amount of schools. But there are so many variables and unique examples that it is very difficult to quantify fully.

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballmomandCEP:

BOF, how would you categorize a 'top' D3? One that is dominant in its conference, or that regularly goes on to regionals? Or has a history at the D3 CWS?

I would venture to say that the vast majority of "top" DIII schools qualify for all of the accolades you mentioned above. The schools that consistently win in conference usually move onto regionals, and the teams that consistently move onto regionals generally find their way in the CWS.

quote:

If a player's goal is great baseball at highest possible level (for him), BUT also playing time, great education, and taking his game to the highest possible level, is it better to be on a D3 team that is among the best in the conference (but not national top 30), and would give opportunity for more playing time; vs., a mid major that is not a powerhouse in their conference, probably less playing time at 1st, but the baseball development benefits of D1?

I think that the answer to this will vary from person to person. First and foremost in any search should be finding the appropriate academic fit for the recruit. One should not look for an athletic fit and negate the academic perspective of the collegiate experience.

Addressing your hypothetical situation, let's assume that all is equal academically, socially and pertaining to the comfort level with the coaching staff. In short, there is nothing like being a contributor in a team's success. Success can be quantified in many ways and will also vary from program to program. I personally consider the greatest experience of my collegiate baseball career to be the trip to the DIII regionals during my sophomore year. Was it the best baseball I've ever played? No. Was I a superstar during the tournament? No (although CD would probably argue against that). But the incredible feeling of accomplishment that I shared with my teammates brothers during that time is remarkably indescribable and something I will cherish forever.


My collegiate baseball career has shifted rather drastically, from being a Friday starter for a high level Division III school to an injury-ridden 5th year fighting for playing time on a mid-major Division I team. The biggest piece of advice I can give from my experience is to never stop working hard, and never feel as though you've done enough. There is always someone who wants it just as much...if not more than you do. What is important is to separate yourself from those people. College coaches are paid to detect these exact qualities, and I can assure you with 100% certainty that work ethic does not go unnoticed.

The differences I have found specifically between my DIII experience and my DI experience lie more within the specific technicalities of the game. To the naked eye I would venture to say that the game itself is not very different at the surface. As mentioned previously many times before, 90 mph is 90 wherever you are. The subtleties...the consistencies of breaking balls, the at-bat by at-bat adjustments, the precision of outfield arms, the complexities of the baserunning game...this is where the majority of the differences between the levels lie. The game at the Division I level is more tight and sharp than at the Division III level overall. The pure talent is not the difference.

One major difference as well is the time commitment. The time commitment required at the Division I level is exponentially more than that of the Division III level. This is not to say that the coaching staffs at Division III schools don't require their student-athletes to work hard, nor is it to say that Division III players are lazy. Simply put, as per NCAA regulations, Division I teams spend more time together than Division III teams do.

I will wrap this post up here, but I would love to answer any specific questions anyone has that I could possibly help out with. Aside from the work ethic advice I provided above, I will also say that the best thing a potential recruit can do is never rule out any school based on perceived level of play or perceived playing time being offered. College baseball is very difficult wherever you go. It is also as gratifying as imaginable in so many different ways.

quote:

My collegiate baseball career has shifted rather drastically, from being a Friday starter for a high level Division III school to an injury-ridden 5th year fighting for playing time on a mid-major Division I team

You're not giving yourself enough credit. While your team fights to make the conference playoffs, you're in a conference and facing programs like Louisville, South Florida and other teams that have been ranked and/or in the NCAA tournament in recent years.

Not only your insight JH never ceases to amaze me, but your ability to communicate.

I have never met you or even talked to you JH but I would hire you in a NY minute. When do you graduate? What is your major?

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:

Not only your insight JH never ceases to amaze me, but your ability to communicate.

I have never met you or even talked to you JH but I would hire you in a NY minute. When do you graduate? What is your major?

I'll finish up my Master's degree this coming May (almost exactly 7 months from now). Careful...a NY minute is awfully quick! What kind of offer are we talking?

There is also a difference in time commitment amongst the D3 schools. We have talked to some that end the fall practice in early October and then get back together mid January or so. In between you are on your own as far as working out or any practice. Other D3s have captains practices that start immediately after the official fall practice ends. There is also specific work out times throughout the week and a specific workout itself. From my limited experience these are the more successful programs but may not be the right fit for everyone.

One school we just visited has a specified workout that each player follows and it includes alot of running (1 mile runs typically). We don't believe that is the way to train for baseball and it somewhat turned my son off immediately, We will investigate further though.

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
My two cents....I've channeled my inner-TRHit.

D1 or D3 doesn't matter. We looked at both. It came down to this...

1) Go where you can get the best education in your field of study

2) Go where you can play

That's it.

AMEN!

JH: Seriously you have some fans here so as you get closer I would be putting out some feelers what field(s) you are interested in working in. HSBBW could become an informal job site!

I believe you are correct DK on the commitment levels for different programs. I know my son’s program gives the kids a week to get settled and then they get right after strength and conditioning - hard. Captains practices start after 2-3 weeks, with continued S&C. Team running kicks in before official practices, which continue through the fall with a Fall World series prior to Thanksgiving. (be careful on suggesting that running is not part of the overall plan, because there are a lot of reasons to run to get in basic shape and to develop a team spirit that you might not consider looking from the outside, if your son does not take well to working out hard, getting up early, and running then he likely will not like highly competitive college baseball)
When they get back from Thanksgiving, they get back into S&C, practice on their own or captains. They get a break for Christmas but are expected to be working out – hard - as they start the year with a S&C team competition. This rolls them right into full team practices later in January and then it is pedal to the metal until the college world series. Comparing notes with my son’s D1 friends I would say his program is slightly less demanding than some of the top D1’s, but not much. I think there is more flexibility in timing and missing practice, but the expectations are that you have to get your work in on your own if you want to compete. His team expects to win their conference, expects to go to a regional and expects to be nationally ranked. They have been one game short of the CWS a number of times but have not made it to the dance….this year? That is the expectation they have.

One other comment, I think injuries to key starters tend to have a bigger impact in the D3 world since they tend to not be as deep in impact players. I know injuries likely kept my son’s team out of the CWS in past years, where a D1 roster may be deeper and can compensate for losses of key players.

I don't believe any type of distance running is good as a baseball conditioning tool, but it may not be uncommon. The more I thought about it though I believe it may be used more for team spirit as you mentioned.

My son has always enjoyed working out so the S&C portion is good as long as there not in there doing a bodybuilding type workout with curls and triceps kickbacks etc.

I really agree with JHs assessment regarding the differences between the D1 and D3 game. I watched a lot of D3 baseball last season, and have watched a lot of D1 here in California.

D1 players have "louder tools", a lot more size, speed, etc. Not necessarily always playing a cleaner game than D3.

A very top pitcher from my son's D3 conference, Dittrick, was the ERA champion this summer in the very highly regarded West Coast Summer League. He had a 1.10 ERA I believe, pitching against top D1 talent. Not a lot of strikeouts, and he's 5' 9" RHP....He basically dominates, but he's not an MLB draft prospect I'm assuming, and probably was not recruited by many, if any D1's, just guessing. Doesn't have "loud tools"

My son overnighted at a D3 on a Sunday. Sunday night was pizza and my son watching football on TV while the players did homework. In the weight room at 6am on Monday. He got to see the real world!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by twotex:
My son overnighted at a D3 on a Sunday. Sunday night was pizza and my son watching football on TV while the players did homework./QUOTE]

Indeed. I'm sure this is the case at a number of schools, including D1. Our son is a Soph at a high academic D3 school, all Frosh take a year-long seminar that is basically an overview of great/major thinkers and philosophies across cultures and eras - an "intro to the liberal arts" so to speak. He said the reading for this course alone, which did not consist of what one would call "light reading" averaged 70 pages a night, then the essays.... Then, the work for all the other classes.

quote:

twotex said....My son overnighted at a D3 on a Sunday. Sunday night was pizza and my son watching football on TV while the players did homework. In the weight room at 6am on Monday. He got to see the real world!

I'm willing to bet that experience will help your son form a much better perspective than anything anyone else can tell him about college baseball. Good stuff!

Time management is the name of the game at every level-managing time to get in your workouts, your academic work, your "socializing", eating, and sleeping...and keeping the priorities straight among them.

My son is a DIII player that was recruited by several mid majors and below mid majors schools. He is a junior now and has started most of the games since his freshman year.He is very happy with his decision to go DIII, but still wonders how he'd do at a DI program. He is majoring in biomedical engineering and puts in a lot of time on the field, in the weightroom, and studying. My hats off to those kids that can pursue a tough major at the DI level with the extra time and games they have.

My son has visited both D1 and D3 schools, and the one thing that struck both of us after speaking to some players was that the D1s treat baseball more like a job. There is a lot of off-the-field stuff that isn't fun, like early morning conditioning all year long. Still, son wants to go to a D1 school ....

My son is also at a D3 and couldn't be happier. As a freshman, he was in the starting rotation and was happy to pitch as many innings as he did. He also played this summer in the Florida Collegiate League and was able to compete with many athletes from all divisions.

His collegiate team still has the early morning workouts. The difference is he is extremely challenged academically and has a lot in common with his teammates. Even though he was recruited at all levels (small D1) he wouldn't trade his D3 experiences for anything else.

I'm new to this wonderful site with a 2015 who has collegiate baseball aspirations... With this discussion of D1 vs. D3, as we begin this process, where does D2 fit in? I didn't read every post in this thread word for word but I didn't see mention of D2 - and am confused why? Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by upthegap:
I'm new to this wonderful site with a 2015 who has collegiate baseball aspirations... With this discussion of D1 vs. D3, as we begin this process, where does D2 fit in? I didn't read every post in this thread word for word but I didn't see mention of D2 - and am confused why? Thanks.

Welcome to the hsbbweb and fair question!

You could pencil D2 into the title of this thread and it would work just as well. The reason I contrasted these two (D1/D3) in the initial post is that sometimes people think there is a huge disparity between the two when oftentimes, kids are recruited by both. Some are dismissive of D3 when in fact that is where the better opportunity lies for a given situation even though D1's may also be in the picture.

When we talk levels, sometimes it seems like the impression might be that a D1 player is twice the skill of a D2 player and three times the skill of the D3 player. Of course that can't be the case if players are getting recruited at both levels. If you go look at JH's fine response above, not only was he a player who was recruited at both levels, but now he can say he has played at both levels.

Many fine responses from D3 parents in this thread showing that their sons' and families made fine decisions. If there are any D2 players or parents who would like to post their thoughts, please feel free to do so In the meantime, I'll update the title of this thread to include D2 as well.

I should add that when my son was younger, he thought he wanted to play DI or nothing. The information I gathered from this board helped him realize that D3 would be a better fit for him.

There are good players and lots of competition at every level. The players take it very seriously at every level and at most every school. I think the point is to do your best wherever you are and enjoy every moment of it because it all ends far too soon. What a great opportunity to keep playing baseball after high school, wherever that may be. And when it works out, that is even better because it always is tough and it always is fragile.