D3 vs. JUCO then going to D1

FYI, there is a rule that states that any player coming from directly from any 4 year program to a D1 program has to sit out a year.

From a JUCO to D1 you do not.

I am not really understanding the real purpose of your question but my answer is that the JUCO player will get the nod from the D1 coach way before any D2 or D3 player would be considered.

I do not myself know any player that has done this, perhaps someone's player here has.

You may not want to realize this, but there are a lot more merits to attending JUCO than you obviously are aware of,the above being one.

quote:

This question relates not to which college(education) option is better, but are D1's as likely to take a player who has played well in a decent D3, vs. a player who has played well in a JUCO?

Also from a competition/improvement standpoint, would it be better to work your way up the roster with little playing time at a mid D1, or get more playing time in the first two years on a top 20 D3?

Vector,

Question 1 - It will depend on the D1 program. JUCOs by their nature are going to be more transitional. So I would expect more JUCO transfers overall than D3. The D3s that I'm thinking of, most people are there to get an education first and play baseball second.

Question 2 - I'm not clear on your end goals (ie...get drafted?), but I'd rather PLAY at a top 20 D3 or JUCO than just practice at a mid D1 with everything else being equal. These players put in a lot of work and time during the off season and in season. Frankly, if I'm a player, I'd like any playing time to show for it. This entered into my son's thinking when he was considering schools. He'd rather have a bird in hand rather than two in the bush.

Vector,
TPM is correct: the general rule is that a player transferring from any 4 year school to a D1 must sit out a year. There is an exception (14.5.5.2.10.2) which may apply to the hypothetical D3 to D1 transfer. If the player wasn't recruited to the original school, and didn't receive any athletic aid, then he doesn't have to sit for a year.

The definition of "recruited" (13.01.13.1) includes being provided with an official visit, having an arranged off-campus meeting, or more than one phone call initiated or arrnaged by the coach.

If a player plans to use the D3 as a stepping stone to a D1, he'll probably want to know before enrolling that the D3 school will offer him an opportunity to play. Given that, I'm not sure how he could avoid being classified as recruited.

Some players have transferred from D3 to D1, but I think it is quite unusual. I do know of a player who qualified for the exception mentioned above, but it was a moot point because he didn't make the D1 team.

My recommendation is to attend a 4 year school at a level where he is very likely to get playing time, and plan to stay there.

quote:

but are D1's as likely to take a player who has played well in a decent D3, vs. a player who has played well in a JUCO?

I would say no for the simple reason D1s don't scout D3 for players and most coaches are not going to take a player they haven't seen play, unless they have a solid referal.

If you goal is D1 baseball, starting at a D2 or D3 is not the path to take. Typically, kids intent on playing D1 transfer or start at JCs for playing time, not D2/D3. The only d2/d3 transfers I know about to D1s were all walkons.

Vector, as our son the coach tells me all the time, sometimes baseball requires "tough love." Take this for whatever.
The route from D3 to D1, as TPM comments, is now blocked by the transfer/sit rule in most situations.
I can tell you of 3 guys who transferred before the new rule and about our son who had that option. But those examples no longer apply.
The two issues for a D3 to D1 at this point would be the sit rule and transfer of credits. When our son had the option, even though he attended one of the top academics nationally, transferring to an ACC State school involved a major loss of units and probably being in school for 5 plus years.
As both TPM and fenwaysouth have posted, if all that is involved is development of your son for 2 years and then to DI and the draft, JC is the only true option.
But that is not the reason for my post.
The reason is to express the opinion that DI, D3 and JC are misnomers to really understand if those guys were correct or blowing smoke with their projections, since that seems to be guiding most of your posts, to my reading.
This isn't about a mid level or mid major DI vs playing everyday at a D3.
It is about how well your son is coached and challenged to get better by a college coaching staff combined with the amount of talent, skill, upside, hard work, heart and determination/grinding he is willing to do.
Most college players don't get from "potential" to being drafted without great college coaching and their great efforts. Some do and some to be honest do it in spite of the college coaching.
A great college coach is going to look at where your son can be, and needs to be, and challenge and coach him every day to exceed where he was yesterday. Those types of coaches exist at every level of college baseball, but not every coach at the DI level, in my opinion, can do that/does that.
So this isn't, in my view, whether your son goes to a JC, a mid major DI and works his way along or a top 20 d3 and plays every day(I still question if you understand what that means), it is about how well he is coached, how much talent, skill, heart, determination and focus he has, along with his willingness to grind every single day.
To be honest, to get your son where you seem to be focused,and assuming he and you see the future in the same way, my opinion is the goal for your son is to get him the best coaching possible with DI, projection and the draft as your goal.
At this point, if he has not applied to the top 20 d3's, those are probably not an option.

infielddad - your advice is absolutely golden. If applied, it could save someone 10's of thousands of dollars and may also set someone up with a next-level opportunity past college.

Vector - I am never quite sure if your questions ask what you really want to know. I feel there is a D1-or-bust mentality there that could cost your son dearly. I get the impression that you think that anything other than D1 is not real college baseball.

Let me phrase it another way from my point of view. There are plenty of D1 programs out there who do not play real college baseball imho. They are the whipping boys for everyone else and are used to getting their brains beat out.

On the other hand, there are programs at all the other levels including D1 that are known for developing their players as infielddad noted. Find one of those. Find one, no matter the level, where the coach absolutely loves your son. He'll make it abundantly clear. Find that one coach who will get the absolute most out of your son and then let the chips fall where they may.

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:

Vector,

Question 1 - It will depend on the D1 program. JUCOs by their nature are going to be more transitional. So I would expect more JUCO transfers overall than D3. The D3s that I'm thinking of, most people are there to get an education first and play baseball second.

Question 2 - I'm not clear on your end goals (ie...get drafted?), but I'd rather PLAY at a top 20 D3 or JUCO than just practice at a mid D1 with everything else being equal. These players put in a lot of work and time during the off season and in season. Frankly, if I'm a player, I'd like any playing time to show for it. This entered into my son's thinking when he was considering schools. He'd rather have a bird in hand rather than two in the bush.

My son understands he is not a blue chipper, but also knows he wants the opportunity to play after college if he continues to develop. He therefore wants to go into a program where the competition is good enough for him to not only do well, but against real good players.
So even though we as parents want a top quality education for him first, he wants to try and find the best of both worlds.
His perception of D3 is that the competition is weaker, therefore he will not develop enough over the course of 4 years. I more or less convinced him that if he played high quality D3 for a couple of years, he could then go on to D1 if he still wanted to.
Since JUCO is not an option(everyone, please don't go down that road with me), that seemed like a good choice considering there are D3's that want him. One in particular is a top 20 program that has excellent educational credentials.
However there are also a couple low/mid D1's that seem to want him, but not with the same educational qualification as the D3's.
So it is a balancing act between what is best for him academically, vs. what he will find acceptable baseball wise.
He wants to get innings, but is also willing to work his way up in a D1 if it would give him a greater chance to develop into a pro prospect.

Frankly, I am just happy he now has some interest from a variety of schools.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
There is an exception (14.5.5.2.10.2) which may apply to the hypothetical D3 to D1 transfer. If the player wasn't recruited to the original school, and didn't receive any athletic aid, then he doesn't have to sit for a year.

The definition of "recruited" (13.01.13.1) includes being provided with an official visit, having an arranged off-campus meeting, or more than one phone call initiated or arrnaged by the coach.

If a player plans to use the D3 as a stepping stone to a D1, he'll probably want to know before enrolling that the D3 school will offer him an opportunity to play. Given that, I'm not sure how he could avoid being classified as recruited.

Some players have transferred from D3 to D1, but I think it is quite unusual. I do know of a player who qualified for the exception mentioned above, but it was a moot point because he didn't make the D1 team.

My recommendation is to attend a 4 year school at a level where he is very likely to get playing time, and plan to stay there.

Just when you think you have a handle on the rules, you realize how much more you need to learn. For some reason I was under the impression that D1 to D1, or D2 to D1 had the one year rule, not D3 to D1. If that is the case, then it brings us back to square one.

As to being recruited as it relates to the exception rule, I was under the impression that as long as money came from the academic side(D3 there is no athletic money anyway) you were ok?

Along those same lines, if you go to a D1 where the school is not paying(i.e. prepaid or Bright Futures), then decide to leave after one or two years, would that qualify for the exception rule?

Also, since you are the resident guru on the rules, let me ask you this. If he were to go on a school visit(D1-3), meet the coaches/players, and stay with a ballplayer overnight, would that be official or unofficial if everything was paid for by me?

quote:

Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:

I would say no for the simple reason D1s don't scout D3 for players and most coaches are not going to take a player they haven't seen play, unless they have a solid referal.

If you goal is D1 baseball, starting at a D2 or D3 is not the path to take. Typically, kids intent on playing D1 transfer or start at JCs for playing time, not D2/D3. The only d2/d3 transfers I know about to D1s were all walkons.

Several D1 coaches who like my son have said he is about a year behind in physical development(a senior in a juniors body). So they have either said he needs to redshirt his freshman year with them, or needs to go JUCO until he gets physically connected.
So assuming the coach was kept informed as to his progress in D3, I'd hope they would still be interested. I guess I need to ask those coaches if they would feel the same way if he did well in a D3 instead of a JUCO. I just am not sure what D1's coaches perspectives are of the competition at the D3 level.

Then again, if you have to sit a year from D3 to D1, it is a moot point.

quote:

So assuming the coach was kept informed as to his progress in D3, I'd hope they would still be interested. I guess I need to ask those coaches if they would feel the same way if he did well in a D3 instead of a JUCO. I just am not sure what D1's coaches perspectives are of the competition at the D3 level.

While you are chatting, why not ask the coach of the "inferior" top 20 ranked d3 team if he wants to develop your son to transfer? That coach is focused on the success of 30 or so players, not one.
When our son was drafted and showed up in Auburn NY, it seemed the d3 kid, the Pac10 kid and the SEC kid all put on their pants the same way, played on a field with 90 foot base paths, and the pitcher's mound was 60'6".

Infielddad and ClevelandDad,

I had been working and composing a response to the earlier posts and only just now read both of yours. While I will take the time to reply to both of your well thought out posts, let me just briefly say this.

My son did have a D1 or bust mentality, and slowly but surely I've been working to get him looking in different directions. He knows that not all D3 or NAIA kids are weak players.
However he has also seen enough of his former teammates and kids who played a few years ahead of him that were the weaker guys(some even getting cut in HS), yet playing at those levels.

One day he told me that from what he understood, most kids that are drafted come out of D1's with all others far behind. He said D3's had the lowest number, but in all honesty I was not positive.
Sure enough I came to the forum looking for answers and found that he was correct.
My son believes in himself, so even though I've tried to do the parental thing and let him know how few kids actually make the pros, he believes that is his destiny. I certainly do not want to try and crush his belief, nor am I certain he might not make it someday.
So when I come here to ask questions, it is normally with a combination of things going on in my head between what is in his mind, and what we as parents are wondering. So if it comes across as me going in three different directions, that is the reason.
I am only trying to get advice to help us make the most informed decision possible.

BTW - The good news is a top 20 D3 does want him, and my son is considering it. However he was assuming he could leave after two years to go D1 if he wanted. Now we might be back to square one since that apparently is not an option.

quote:

My son believes in himself, so even though I've tried to do the parental thing and let him know how few kids actually make the pros, he believes that is his destiny. I certainly do not want to try and crush his belief, nor am I certain he might not make it someday.

I believe some player's talent is in the future and commend your son for his beliefs. I think where there is will, then he will find his way.

quote:

My son did have a D1 or bust mentality, and slowly but surely I've been working to get him looking in different directions. He knows that not all D3 or NAIA kids are weak players.

What else is new? So did mine...until his phone wasn't ringing off the hook, letters filling the mail box and it was February/March of his senior year.
The one guy who was calling was the same ole D3 coach who started in September, the one coach who believed our son would be better than our son ever believed, and who proved he was right and all the DI coaches were wrong in their evaluations.
If your son has no DI offers at this point in his senior year and thinks he should include planning for the MLB draft in 3-4 years in his choice of college, my only thought is that is a huge mistake.
I wish your son all the best.
I will tell you, though, there are a lot of D3 hitters who would love nothing more than to prove your son wrong in his assessment. In 2002, Kyle Sleeth from Wake Forest was projected as the #1 pick in the MLB draft and was pitching for Team USA against the teams in the NECBL.
With around 50 guns in the stands, he threw a 96 mph fastball to the leadoff hitter for the Mill City All-Americans. Yep, the D3 kid turned the fastball around with a line drive right back by Sleeth's ear. Next time up, the D3 kid got plunked in the back, but knew who won that battle.
Sometimes it is better for a player to have a huge chip on his shoulder and feel he has to prove everything to everybody in every AB.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
This isn't about a mid level or mid major DI vs playing everyday at a D3.
It is about how well your son is coached and challenged to get better by a college coaching staff combined with the amount of talent, skill, upside, hard work, heart and determination/grinding he is willing to do.
Most college players don't get from "potential" to being drafted without great college coaching and their great efforts. Some do and some to be honest do it in spite of the college coaching.
A great college coach is going to look at where your son can be, and needs to be, and challenge and coach him every day to exceed where he was yesterday. Those types of coaches exist at every level of college baseball, but not every coach at the DI level, in my opinion, can do that/does that.
So this isn't, in my view, whether your son goes to a JC, a mid major DI and works his way along or a top 20 d3 and plays every day(I still question if you understand what that means), it is about how well he is coached, how much talent, skill, heart, determination and focus he has, along with his willingness to grind every single day.

Sorry Vector, did I miss something? Why is JUCO not an option?

Vector,
Official and unofficial vists are covered in more detail than you want in 13.6 and 13.7 of each NCAA division manual.

An unofficial visit can be taken at any time, but the only thing the school can provide is 3 tickets to a campus athletics event. These tickets must be used by the player or those visiting with him. If the player stays overnight in a dorm, he has to pay for it. If he has a snack with the team, he has to pay for it.

With an official visit, the school can pay for many things, but there are a number of other requirements that must be met.

Regarding the exception discussed earlier in the thread, why not just read the rule numbers I listed above? I expect that will be more convincing than anything we might tell you.

Now, about D3 and the draft. Each year, the great majority of drafted players come from D1 or JC ball. Perhaps 2% of drafted players come from D3 schools. So it is tempting to think that a player who aspires to be drafted should find his way into a D1 school (or JC) and avoid a D3. That's simplistic thinking. The reality is that the great majority of players who have the talent to play professionally are already demonstrating that talent before they enter college. Sure there are exceptions; infieldson is one and perhaps Vector Jr will be one also. But it's not that MLB scouts discriminate against D3 players; rather most draftable players are recruited into D1/JC programs. I think that acouts will notice and gladly draft a D3 player, and who knows, perhaps a talented player may stand out more at a D3 than at a D1.

You've written that your son is expected to grow and get stronger during his college years. That's great, but it's still long odds (IMO) that he'll be perceived much differently in a couple of years. Compare him to a pitcher here in Northern Califronia whose physical development lags behind his age-- his voice changed as a junior in high school. He's getting tall now (senior year), maybe 6'4", but he doesn't have a man's body, and he weighs around 170. Still, he was named to the West AFLAC team. Truth is, even at twelve, when he was much smaller than his team mates, it was obvious that he would play in the upper level of college baseball.

A few players become physically significantly better (relative to their age peers) in the years past high school and are perceived as having more talent than previously recognized, but it isn't common.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

The two issues for a D3 to D1 at this point would be the sit rule and transfer of credits. When our son had the option, even though he attended one of the top academics nationally, transferring to an ACC State school involved a major loss of units and probably being in school for 5 plus years.

That is something I never considered. I would have assumed a top academic D3's credits would be transferable. Thanks for mentioning that because it is a significant consideration and not something you want to discover after it is too late.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
It is about how well your son is coached and challenged to get better by a college coaching staff combined with the amount of talent, skill, upside, hard work, heart and determination/grinding he is willing to do.
Most college players don't get from "potential" to being drafted without great college coaching and their great efforts. Some do and some to be honest do it in spite of the college coaching.
A great college coach is going to look at where your son can be, and needs to be, and challenge and coach him every day to exceed where he was yesterday. Those types of coaches exist at every level of college baseball, but not every coach at the DI level, in my opinion, can do that/does that.

I totally agree with you, and that is certainly a consideration in all of this. I firmly believe it will take a great program dedicated to their players development for him to achieve his maximum potential. There was a D1 who expressed interest in him a while back when no one else did, but it was known as the graveyard of pitchers. It's reputation is based in part on their lack of concern for the pitchers arms, with a significantly higher rate of injuries under this particular coaching staff.
Conversely, there is a program my son would love to attend, and it has nothing to do with the college, rather the great pitching coach and his program dedicated to getting the maximum out of his players. So if I can find a program like that for him, he will be more amenable to going regardless of the level of play. Heck he is willing to redshirt for one such coach just to develop under him.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
While you are chatting, why not ask the coach of the "inferior" top 20 ranked d3 team if he wants to develop your son to transfer? .

I PM'd you to say I did not mean to come across in a negative way about D3 players, and certainly never used the the term "inferior".

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

If your son has no DI offers at this point in his senior year and thinks he should include planning for the MLB draft in 3-4 years in his choice of college, my only thought is that is a huge mistake.

He has only recently been getting offers, and we are waiting on a financial package being put together by a west coast D1. The coach said it might take a month before he can offer it to us. I have no clue how nice an offer it will be, but we are certainly looking forward to it even though I am not sure the school/location is the right fit for him.

I believe going to the recent PG showcase in Ft Myers may have also sparked some interest as we have been getting more inquiries about his HS schedule and requests for more info on him. However he still has not hit anything above 88, so the interest is more limited to those who have actually seen him compete. I had one coach say he was only able to offer him a position if he could hit 90 in the next few months. Fortunately a scout he was familiar with (who watched my son) said he would be in the 90's soon, so he has changed his tune a little bit. Personally I don't believe he will be in the 90's for at least another year, but what do I know, I'm just a father.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

Let me phrase it another way from my point of view. There are plenty of D1 programs out there who do not play real college baseball imho. They are the whipping boys for everyone else and are used to getting their brains beat out.

We totally agree and I know exactly what you mean.
A low D1 made overtures to my son, and since it was D1 he was automatically interested. His pitching coach pointed out how it would be a mistake on several levels. First he said that unless my son was something special already, scouts rarely go to games even to see the other teams players when they face doormats. They want to see players face stiff competition and that does not happen when they play lousy teams. Additionally he said you will come away from there after 4 years without developing, and have a diploma not worth the paper it is written on.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Find one, no matter the level, where the coach absolutely loves your son. He'll make it abundantly clear. Find that one coach who will get the absolute most out of your son and then let the chips fall where they may.

His pitching coach would love to have him, but the head coach only wants RHP's who already throw 92 and above. The HC figures the PC can take these flamethrowers and turn them into producers right away. While this PC is great, he feels that the HC is being shortsighted when it comes to excluding kids like my son because of a fixed MPH number. However, as he said, the HC needs to worry about his job and cannot afford to be patient.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I believe some player's talent is in the future and commend your son for his beliefs. I think where there is will, then he will find his way.

Thanks, and I must admit to being proud of his conviction.

I remember when I tried to make the transition from HS to college. I went from thinking I could make it, to thinking I did not have the time or desire to try. Granted I had other factors my son does not have to deal with, but truth be told, I never had his internal conviction.

If anything I am the one who seems frantic trying to find any avenue to help him, in part due to my wife driving me crazy because he is not enrolled yet.
All the while he remains calm and confident things will work out. He is only focused on helping his HS team now, not worrying about college.
He is externally humble, yet has a calm inner belief he will make it, and shares that belief with me when we talk.
That is another thing I am thankful for.

Today's doormat team might be tommorows cinderella. I'd be careful to not quickly dismiss a program that hasn't had much success, especially if there was a recent (2-3 years) coaching change. There are plenty of top 20/well known coaches I wouldn't want my son to play for.

Vector,

Did your son play varsity last year, and if so did he start or entered after the flmae thrower? What was his role in travel ball? How many pitches does he throw for strikes? Does he have 3 solid ones (really solid) that most D1 coaches would like? I don't think that not throwing 90 is what this is all about.

IMO you have been given some great advice, HERE. The scout telling you that he has lots of pro potential, the pc coach telling you the HC only likes guys who hit 90, that your son will be hitting 90 soon, is just a nicer way of not knowing what else to say. It would probably be to your son and families best interest if they just came out and gave you as infielddad suggested some "tough love" advice.

Tell mom to come here and read all of the good advice given to you, tell her to relax, that the WORST thing in the entire world would be to make a quick choice because he's not signed or commited yet. Tell her there is a reason for it, and tell her it's not about her or you.

I know you don't like me and you most likely will like me less now. I won't blow the smoke, my advice is, don't do what you are going to do with your son, which appears to be finding someplace mom, you and he (remember it's about him) will all be happy.

I admire your son's belief in himself, that's ok, most of our players have that conviction or they wouldn't be where they are today. Most young men have that dream, some are lucky, they have the physical attributes and tools to get noticed right away, others have to work very hard, harder to achieve it because it's not as obvious, an example is infieldson. Same with CD's son, those are one's who defy the odds, JMO, and make it work, and they have to work VERY hard. VERY HARD. I hope that you and your son and his mom understand that the word projectable doesn't mean "pro". Not at all, as I have seen many tall, big, RHP, even throwing close to 90 not ever drafted.

BTW, what is your son doing to defy his odds, is he in the gym everyday, does he run until he has blisters on his feet, does he toss everyday, does he push himself hard in his workouts to the point of physical exhaustion, does he live and breath for this baseball season (getting better)? Is he working hard to build up the arm for added velo?

If not, why? Does he think that just by stepping onto a college campus a coach WILL automatically make him better (doesn't happen that way). Have you done your homework about each and every pitching coach of the schools he is considering, spoken to them about their philosophy (most don't produce pro guys). Keep in mind, most HC are not the ones who will develop your pitcher, unless he is the pitching coach. Remember, this is very important in your son's development, who he works with, not always the program. Your son also needs to convey his pro aspirations to whoever is recruiting him.

What I don't get, is that you are discussing with a west coast D1 his future (only the right fit if the offer is good?) and right here there are JUCO programs that could easily be a much better fit, a place for your son to get good instruction, fill in, fill out, get noticed by pro scouts and coaches (who also might help him in getting to a good D1 program later on) and earn credits towards a degree and then TRANSFER. You did mention that this has been suggested to you.

You have eliminated, for whatever reason, the BEST chance for your son to eventually get to a program that would be "acceptable" to him, for further development and degree.

3FG brings up great points as well, read it over a few times.

JMO.

Going into college with the plan of leaving if a more attractive option comes along would be like going into marriage with the plan of leaving if a more attractive option came along.

Completely wrong and immoral imo.

quote:

Originally posted by Walawala:
Going into college with the plan of leaving if a more attractive option comes along would be like going into marriage with the plan of leaving if a more attractive option came along.

Completely wrong and immoral imo.

That's a little strong.

I can't blame students for doing the best they can for themselves in a system that has rigged all the rules in favor of the institutions.

Is a bit strong, but I don't think that is how most now (with the new rules) view the process when considering 4 year programs. The NCAA did their best to squash that "grass is greener" way of thinking.

Sometimes mistakes are made, and the consequences are not in favor for the student-athlete at a 4 year program, I agree.

This is why the 2 year athletic program is so good for the student athlete caught in between wanting to futher education and get better at their game.

It's just a shame some don't (whatever the reason) see it that way.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Is a bit strong, but I don't think that is how most now (with the new rules) view the process when considering 4 year programs. The NCAA did their best to squash that "grass is greener" way of thinking.

I didn't think so either.

Vector said he did not want to discuss the juco stuff so I didn't mention it. I agree that his son's situation seems to be screaming juco but it is his son's decision to make.

Anybody here think that the quarterback for Green Bay is a good one - that Aaron Rodgers guy? Where did he attend college out of high school? Yup - a juco before he transferred to Cal.

That might be a tact you could employ with your son Vector. Find a list of kids who went to juco, succeeded acadmically at their juco and then the 4 year school they transferred to, and then ultimately developed and got drafted. There are plenty of those stories to go around.

Good points CD, but I wasn't really refering much to being drafted (that's such a long shot), but rather a better option to get into a 4 year program that meets the qualification of player and family.

FWIW, I do beleive that the best pro pitchers usually do not come from 4 year programs.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:

If your son has no DI offers at this point in his senior year and thinks he should include planning for the MLB draft in 3-4 years in his choice of college, my only thought is that is a huge mistake.



He has only recently been getting offers, and we are waiting on a financial package being put together by a west coast D1. The coach said it might take a month before he can offer it to us. I have no clue how nice an offer it will be, but we are certainly looking forward to it even though I am not sure the school/location is the right fit for him.

I believe going to the recent PG showcase in Ft Myers may have also sparked some interest as we have been getting more inquiries about his HS schedule and requests for more info on him. However he still has not hit anything above 88, so the interest is more limited to those who have actually seen him compete. I had one coach say he was only able to offer him a position if he could hit 90 in the next few months. Fortunately a scout he was familiar with (who watched my son) said he would be in the 90's soon, so he has changed his tune a little bit. Personally I don't believe he will be in the 90's for at least another year, but what do I know, I'm just a father.

Well, I'll give this another try largely because our son was in a similar spot and I can relate to what you are thinking, saying and the pressures you are feeling.
I don't mean to say our son didn't have interest. He did. Coach Aoki at Columbia, now ND,was straight up. Our son was his #2 MI, the #1 on his list accepted and was coming to Columbia and he needed to get the football coach to support our son as a 2 sport guy. The football coach didn't think our son was strong enough to do 2 sports in college and wanted a choice. That wasn't the only interest, but the other situations were similar...he was not the top guy and the guys ranked above him accepted.
Not sure if it is important but, as contrasted with your posts, our son only had exposure through the Stanford Camp. He was a football/baseball kid in HS and did no travel or showcases.
If your son has interest from a West Coast DI, that is wonderful. On the other hand, has your son visited, does he know the coaches, team, school intangibles, has he seen them play, seen how the coaches coach and all the factors that would be involved in whether this is a good fit for your son.
To be honest, West Coast DI's are in the WCC, WAC Big West and Pac10 and they could recruit all the pitching they want and have leftovers just from Southern CA, alone. So, my antenna would be up. If your son has not visited and you want to PM, I will be happy to tell you everything I know about the school, unless it is where our son coaches.
If your son wants to see early season high level, DIII baseball with at least 4 guys who might be drafted, and pitching staffs with multiple guys with velocities at 90-92, click on the Trinity/BSC game video tonight at 7pm CST. If Klimesh in on the mound for TU, he can reach 94 and Lucero is an 86-88 lefty who is very good, Panozzo has pitched in the Cape and TU's Solomon was the conference pitcher of the year as a sophomore. I am assuming BSC is the same and their 1B/2B can hit any pitching at any level. They are good.
Vector, here is my advice and I will shut up and stop posting:
Work with your son to secure a good fit where he is accepted in school and the coaching staff, who are quality and proven, want him. Fit means academics and baseball. Get that secured and take away all the anxiety, indecision and ability of coaches to blow smoke or be in control of where things are going.
Once that is done, things might change. It did for our son. From the time he graduated until the end of July, the JC coach at CSM, one of the best in CA. saw him for one inning and made him a top recruit who he felt would get multiple offers after one year. One WCC program and one Big West program offered him visits and money once they saw him and learned that either through the draft or academic admissions, players who committed were not coming.
At those points, our son was in control, not the coaches.
With all of that, he still chose the DIII, and never regretted it for baseball, academics, friends, quality of life and quality of his experience.
Work with your son so he might see the importance of him being able to control the next several months feeling assured he has a good "fit." If he gets to 88-90, then he gets to control what might result for recruiting.
If he doesn't and all of the "interest" turns out to be nothing more than interest, your son is still in the best situation possible and where his skills and talents probably belong.
Good luck. Thank you for sharing in your last post the anxiety and pressure involved. You and your family are not alone. That pressure/hope/belief combines with words off the tongues of college coaches in ways that create confusion, uncertainty, false hopes and deep disappointment. Got that!!!
If your son and you don't take control of this by being starkly honest and realistic, it likely gets more problematic from here.
It is funny how that changes once you and your son have control, rather than feeling his future is out of your control or being controlled.
I wish you and especially your son all the best and will follow the next few months with interest.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Vector said he did not want to discuss the juco stuff so I didn't mention it. I agree that his son's situation seems to be screaming juco but it is his son's decision to make.

That might be a tact you could employ with your son Vector.

I appreciate you respecting my request and not going on and on about JUCO's.
As an FYI, it is not my son that is anti JUCO, it is my wife. She is dead set against it, and as much as I want our son to take the best route ( I admit JUCO might be a fit), it is not worth the break up of my marriage. I get the feeling I would be more likely to have an affair and keep our marriage together than have him go to a JUCO.

quote:

I get the feeling I would be more likely to have an affair and keep our marriage together than have him go to a JUCO.

Don't know your wife at all but I am betting neither is an option!

I sometimes think that people form opinions because they are not well informed.

I am a firm beleiver that moms, if understanding what is really involved and what is really important, will only want what is right (fit) for their sons, it doesn't always have to be what everyone else thinks is appropriate.

It kind of makes me sad, when I hear that people are not open to suggestions, it's not mom or dad that will be attending.

Again, some really good points made regarding what is and what is not important, and some very important things to pay attention to during the process.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
Regarding the exception discussed earlier in the thread, why not just read the rule numbers I listed above? I expect that will be more convincing than anything we might tell you.

My apologies for taking this long to comment on your post. I was not ignoring it, I have just been responding to others.

Thanks for taking the time to post an informative and well spoken reply.

In your case you have such a good reputation here, I'd trust your understanding of the rules better than me reading them. Heck, I would have sworn I read where the 1 year sit out rule only applied to D2 and D1, not D3, and look at how wrong I was about that.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
Now, about D3 and the draft. Each year, the great majority of drafted players come from D1 or JC ball. Perhaps 2% of drafted players come from D3 schools. So it is tempting to think that a player who aspires to be drafted should find his way into a D1 school (or JC) and avoid a D3. That's simplistic thinking.

Maybe, but the statistics indicate otherwise. Sure a bona fide stud throwing 95+ will be discovered anywhere, but D3 is at the bottom of the barrel for the number of kids who go on to be drafted. Even NAIA is above D3 according to figures I read.
Again, that is not to say D3's are the worst or least talented. I'm sure there are several factors why D3 are on the bottom, but to a kid who wants to have a chance to get drafted, D3 looks less appealing than any other option.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
You've written that your son is expected to grow and get stronger during his college years.

It is not so much that he will get much taller since he is almost 6'5" now. I am 6'7" and his mother is 5'11", but I do not think he will get as tall as I am. Regardless, he will definately be able to put on some healthy weight, and will transistion from his boys body reasonably soon.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
Truth is, even at twelve, when he was much smaller than his team mates, it was obvious that he would play in the upper level of college baseball.

People have been telling us our son would be playing high level ball many years ago. I just politely thanked them for the compliment, but thought it was way too early to make those type of predictions.
As it turns out he has done well for himself, and even though I have never posted his stats on the forum, they are very good. So I started to buy into the fact he would pitch beyond HS, but found that MPH is now the gold standard. Sure lefties and a few phenomenal nighties get away with lower MPH, but by and large most top programs expect their pitchers to already be able to hit 90. I am not making excuses for my son since he is not a blue chipper, but I am pointing out a fact that cannot be denied. In my day throwing 80's in HS was the ticket to playing. The poor kids now days who are only throwing in the high 70's, low 80's are dismissed off hand. It is too bad because some of these kids have talent that will never be developed. My son seems to be what some have called a "tweener". Knowledgeable people know he will be a 90's guy, but it make take a couple of years. A decent amount of college coaches are not willing to invest the money and time into a kid, many of whom have never even seen him pitch yet. Thank goodness we did get some exposure this past fall and winter, otherwise we would be more anxious than we already are.

Anyway, I just wanted to get an idea if D3 was going to be a viable option for him when it comes time to decide which program to play for. We do not have a lot of options, but at least we have a few. Hopefully even more options will open up by the end of his senior season. At least half a dozen schools have requested his schedule and contacted his HS coach. Supposedly a couple are going to see him in a multi team HS tourney in mid March.

quote:

Maybe, but the statistics indicate otherwise. Sure a bona fide stud throwing 95+ will be discovered anywhere, but D3 is at the bottom of the barrel for the number of kids who go on to be drafted. Even NAIA is above D3 according to figures I read.
Again, that is not to say D3's are the worst or least talented. I'm sure there are several factors why D3 are on the bottom, but to a kid who wants to have a chance to get drafted, D3 looks less appealing than any other option.

Not that this should matter, but if you want to calculate, you will probably find that since 2004 D3's like Trinity U, Trinity College, Linfield, Pomona-Pitzer, Emory, Suny Brockport, ESCU and a few other D3's including a couple in NJ and a couple in Wisconsin, along with Marietta and some others in Ohio have had more recruits/players drafted per school than probably 50% of the mid to lower level D1's.

Vector,

I left you a PM.

what's the avg. attendance for games played in Grand Junction for the jr. college world series? i know it's not an option for your son as you clearly stated,and it wasn't for my son either,but i've been told it's an unforgettable college experience.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
the general rule is that a player transferring from any 4 year school to a D1 must sit out a year.

Does that apply to 4 year NAIA transfers

Any 4 year school that engaged in intercollegiate baseball competition, including club teams, while the player was there. ( D1 manual, Bylaw 14.5.5.1)

There are a couple of exceptions, for players who weren't recruited. See 14.5.5.2.9 and 14.5.5.2.10.2