Dallas Morning News - Pitching

At 10 years of age 5 games in 4 days----OUCH!!!!!!


Where was his DAd and Coach ????

Perhaps his Dad was his Coach?

Double Ouch !!!!!!

Did anyone catch the other article about the slitting of clssifications into divisions, and the enrollment of Cedar Hill (2,448.5)? How do you have a .5?

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/highsch...ignment.2d27e2e.html

A bullpen catcher perhaps. <-- he knows I'm kidding

quote:

How do you have a .5?

or maybe the 19 year old freshman is counted as 1.5

My name is Phillip Clinard. I was the one they interviewed in this article. The whole reason i did the interview was to warn i guess adults with little kids to watch their kids pitching limits. Now the whole thing about the 5 games in 4 days i said i didnt remember and said all i could remember was we played like 5 games in 4 days. It was 8 years ago i still cant remember. I wasnt pointing fingers at anyone saying it was their fault. I accept complete responsibilty for what happened to me. When i was little if i was asked to pitch i pitched i never said my arm hurt. Yes i should have now that i look back on it but i was young and dumb and just wanted to pitch. All i wanted was for people to not start to pitch their kids to soon because i do believe you can pitch to much to early. And through this whole article i was referring to my whole pitching career not to any certain time period. I wish i would have waited to start pitching. But i am the one who wanted to pitch noone made me. I went to my dad and asked him to help me. So again i take responsibilty. There are inning limits kids can pitch at tournaments and then they are done and i did follow these guidelines. But overall starting pitching at age 8 i guess or whenever it was i think i threw to much is what caused arm problems. So i hoped noone took it the wrong and some parents will think about this before they start there kid to soon.

Thanks Mr. Clinard for your comments here. As you know, this is a complex topic. It's unfair to blame any one particular person or circumstance. If baseball remains a passion for you, we hope you will be able to continue playing.

When did you begin throwing a curveball?

Did you throw a slider or splitter?

Did you run after pitching and ice your arm?

What pitches were most stressful on your arm?

Did your coaches over the years (I'm not asking you to name names or teams) demostrate concern for your health?

You are one of a millon kids that pitch, but direct feedback from one that "has been there" is invaluable.

i started throwing curveballs when i was 11 or 12. I messed around throwing a slider when i was 13 but now for very long. And strangely enough i was working on throwing both a splitter and slider last year trying to find a fourth pitch. I did run and ice probably 85-90% of the time when i thought i threw enough. But i learned from Dr. Conway that you need to ice everytime you throw even if you dont pitch. i dont think any pitches except for maybe the slider were stressful on my arm. And yes all my coaches looked out for my well-being. reminding me to ice and run after i pitched

Also i do plan to pursue baseball as far as i can. I am pitching again and am hoping to do well enough this summer to get some kind of scholorship somewhere.

I remember 1 incident in the fall during Phillip's sophomore year. He was not a varsity pitcher but I went to see him play just the same on a Saturday pitching for the school fall team. The select team he was also on was playing our Varsity the next day and as I drove up I saw Phillip on the mound warming up. I don't think I broke the rules by telling the select coach to get him off the mound. He responded by telling me he asked the pitching staff who wanted to throw that day and Phillip wanted the ball. Needless to say the Coach put it all on Phillip. Phillip saw this as a chance to show me what he had. Most 15 year olds would do the same. I had a long talk with him about Him being the one that had to say NO. I put the blame on both ~ But here is advice. Coaches-Dads-Moms, Don't ask a young player to make these decisions-You are the adult and know the consequences that will creep up later in their careers. Don't ask them a question you know the answer to just to get a Win. No win is worth this young man not getting to throw a pitch his senior year. Coach Payne has the same philosophy I did when it comes to protecting a players arm. My guess is Phillip didn't throw this year because Coach Payne was still trying to let him enjoy a career after HS.
That's an opinion and that's that about that.

I've got a pretty similar story. When all is said and done, only person to blame is myself.

cutter, thanks for starting this dialog and Vesuvius, thanks for sharing your story as well as the others that posted comments.

There is no question, the amount of baseball that is available to play now days in the warmer states does have the potential for damaging good arms. You do not even need to be a pitcher to experience arm injuries with year around ball. MLB has an off season, but youth has year around baseball.

It really comes down to education. The parents need to understand the importance of establishing a good throwing routine and the importance of scheduling a few months of rest. Often most (myself included) did not do their homework until their young player started experiencing problems. The second ingredient as pointed out in earier here in the awareness a player needs to have on arm care. That is obviously the most difficult since they want to play so bad.

It's an education, monitoring and dedication to arm care that will help a player avoid arm injuries. I guess it is part of the game but this post topic and similiar information will go a long way on creating the awareness.

Thanks!

My 20 yo injury free son knew when to say NO.
Never had a sore arm and would say no if his arm was tired even at 9-10 yo. He won't start a game without 4 days rest and recently turned down a college start against a great ranked team and told his coach he could only give him a couple innings in relief if he needed him.
Proper care and conditioning is part of the solution . Care includes occassional check up with a good sports chyro. My son will be home for 10 days in August and he has told be to set up an appointment with his Chyro just for a routine exam.
My son and many of his pitching friends all take care of their arms and that includes a check up 2 times during the season.

Over the years I have been an advocate of pitch counts, limiting curve balls till an arm is mature enough to throw it, proper rest/icing/running and empowering a player to know his limits and to speak up when they felt their arm was not "ready" to pitch.

All of this is well and good in theory but the reality that I saw, over the years was this:

If a pitcher has already established himself as being a stud/ace, by performance and can carry himself with that demeanor then when they speak up and say "coach I can't pitch" or "coach I am done" then most of the coaches I have known/seen will usually honor this request by either the player or the parent without blinking an eye with no consequences because it was all in saving that players arm.

But, when it comes to some of the remaining pitchers in the bullpen that are still eager to prove that they can do the job, go the distance or just get noticed then those pitchers will sometimes make bad choices in the number of pitches they throw, the amount of games they throw in a day/week, sometimes they are not being truthful about other outings they may have had throughout the week and this is all in the name of getting the coach and/or the team to recognize them, use them and the result could be an injury.

The players know they shouldn't be pitching, the parents know this and I would have to think the coach knows this. But when the pitcher says "give me the ball" then the coach sees that as the player is willing to take the chance and it removes the coach from any liablity because the "player asked for the ball". A good coach is one that will look the player in the eye and say "no you are not rested enough/ready enough, I will use you but not at this time".....

These types of players that are just yearning for a chance will pitch through pain, pitch when they know they shouldn't because they fear that if they say to the coach "no I can't or no I am done" that it will be their last time to get a chance. It is that fear that drives a lot of these boys and some parents to continue doing things to their arms that they KNOW is not right for the chance to pitch. Because to them it might be their only chance to pitch.

These pitchers may only have HS, they may only have that 1 summer it is all they have, they are not the ones on the map to go play college ball or to get drafted they just want to pitch at any cost. Or they may have the ability to play at the next level but they have been over looked/never seen and that passion is just building up so much inside that they are willing to risk it to get seen.

So, when these boys do get to the HS level and it is time for them to start taking responsibility for their own arms it is then that the situation becomes a tricky situation. If the parent goes to the coach to request not to pitch their son then in some/most cases the coach views the player as weak. The player in turn gets mad at his parents for doing this and so the parents, most of the time, will honor their son's wishes and they will not go to the coach full well knowing that the situation is wrong/bad. And thus it is between a teenage boy and his coach.

Disclaimer: By posting this I am not saying that all aces/studs feel that they can say no and get the backing of their coach at all times, and I am not saying that all coaches are this way, it has just been my observation over the years that this is how some of the "bad choices" have and will be made. I have had many conversations w/many young men and this posting is not to say this is the "norm" this is just what I have seen/heard from some of the players out there. It is not putting blame on the pitchers, the parents or the coaches it is just telling what I have seen/heard to why some choose to do what they know they shouldn't be doing and why they were driven to do it.

And this posting is not about the player or coach mentioned in the article I know neither or their situation this is just based on my own personal observations/experiences.

I guess by responding to this i will open myself up to alot of critics,but i felt like i need to respopnd to some of the post and answer some of the questions.
I happened to be one of Phillips coaches for his younger years as was his Dad and another gentelman.
I will not get into the he saids she said of this article as with the Beaven story some things were printed for the benifit of a good story.
We counted pitches, followed the number of innings that a pitcher can throw for the league or tournament that we were playing in,iced and did everything we could or knew about to keep this young man healthy.Yes he was our ace ,workhorse,and a very good pitcher at a young age.
This article really hit me hard as it looks like we as his younger coaches might have messed up his career.
Winning ball games was very important and any coach that says that its not doesnt need to be out there but win at the cost of hurting a player that is not what i am about.
I can go on and on but i wanted the posters to know some of the other side of the story.
I commend Coach Payne for not useing him when he was cleared to play as i to thought it was to early.
Good luck and wish him nothing but the best as he continues to fight through injury.
I will answer any questions you guys have but be easy on me as i think this injury took place over the years not just in the younger years.

I don't know how many of you are aware, but I have been through mutliple arm injuries and came close to surgery all 3 times. Was it overuse, yes. Was it my never-ending desire to pitch, yes. Was it the nearly year long baseball since I was 11, yes. Was it the numerous pitching lessons, bullpen sessions, times I couldn't stand waiting another day to work on that new change-up or curve ball (whenever that may be), even when I knew that I may be pitching in 2 days or hadn't had enough rest, yes. One thing I have been very adament about, and taken a good deal of criticism, was that at no point does my "always messed up/rubber shoulder" or "weak elbow" stem from what my coaches did. I am not blaming the kid. I do however hold myself responsible. You could consider me an ace when I was younger, and yes I was a work horse, but it was my doing. I knew from an early age that chances are that baseball wasn't my ultimate future. I did, and have made my select/HS experience some of the best times I could ever imagine, and mostly through pitching. 1 thing I failed to recognize at an early age was the warm-ups before the games. I'd warm up 2 or 3 times a game when I'd be in the closer role, throw 1 inning, then start a game the next day. Throwing 1 inning should be fine, but 30+ pitches of warming up (anyone who knows me knows I take a while... all these dang pitches) can add a great deal of "hurt". I do what I can, and there is no doubt that I could throw harder if I wouldn't have been pitching from such an early age, so much (I pitched my first pitch in a real game when I was 6 years old). I can't blame the coaches. If it wasn't for my coaches, I never would've been able to pitch that much--I wouldn't have been good enough.

After all my rambling is done, what I want to say to a parent (coming from an experienced kid): remember warm-up pitches are pitches too. Remember playing SS, 3B, OF, all require throwing, and remember that just because the highest place on the field is the mound, it doesn't mean for a kid to get the "attention" he deserves, he has to pitch. That last remember was a problem my LL team often faced-everyone thinking their kid should pitch just because it was the "center" of the game.

I would like to throw in another scenario.

What if the player is in his last year of HS ball and is not going to advance to the next level due to personal desires, ability, or perhaps other reasons. What long term effects could that possibly have either way since this is their last rodeo?

I saw this several times over the previous season with pitchers at the lower HS classifications.

Its up to the parents and coaches of these young pitchers do what is right. You can't let a young pitcher make a decision like that. Coaches and parents need to wake up.

TigerPaw08 the way I look at it is I want my son as healthy as he can be for the rest of his life. I just had my 4th shoulder surgery and it's not fun nor something I want my son to go through.

Dtiger:

Great Post and I appreciate your honesty and your advice.

I agree with change up i think it was over the years as from when i was 8-18 not any certain period of time what so ever

As we have discussed before, it is seldom one incident that results in an arm injury. And generally there is no one person to blame. Changeup -- if this was your attitude as a coach, then no one would blame you for this injury. And we know you as a caring dad. All coaches, parents, and pitchers can do is follow generally accepted guidelines and maintain proper perspective. For pitchers, the key thing is learning how treat their bodies -- no two are exactly alike.

Got a call last night from Phillip telling me that i might have read the article differently than he meant it. We discussed it for a while and i now know what he was trying to say.
Thanks Phillip for the phone call. That was a stand up thing to do clearing the air.
Good luck as you continue this journey.

CU you know what they say about believing what you read. Especially newspapers.

BHD
That is why i usually just look at the pictures.
I dont comprehend what i read sometimes

quote:

Originally posted by TigerPaw08:
I would like to throw in another scenario.

What if the player is in his last year of HS ball and is not going to advance to the next level due to personal desires, ability, or perhaps other reasons. What long term effects could that possibly have either way since this is their last rodeo?

I saw this several times over the previous season with pitchers at the lower HS classifications.

My younger brother still has to reach over with his left hand and work his right arm/elbow back and forth every morning before he gets out of bed to be able to use it.

Interesting posts - and thanks to all for commenting. It is hard not to want to win; and when players are asked if they can go on pitching - it is hard for then not to say yes.

I would like to add one more comment, especially for Parents of younger kids. It kind of goes along with what Dtiger was saying.

I have observed guys pitch a game or in a game, and then continue to play at another position or play the very next game at 3rd, SS and even Catch. Pitchers are typically very athletic and they called on; especially in the early years to go go go. Imagine catching a complete game only to pitch the next - or vice versa.

IF you are serious about having your little guy move on to who knows where, limit pitches, playing time and the breaking stuff until the growth plates close. Trust me - if they have the stuff they will make the high school team, college etc.

My son (yes he is still pitching and knock on wood) continues to not have injuries - but then again he is not Phillip's or Beaven's level at this time.

I remember a few years ago when we were 11 or 12 and faced a team from Denton. This young man threw curve after curve after curve. They won while our batters who had never seen curves knees buckled. After the game I asked the coach why he was throwing so many curves at a young age and stated that I was concerned about long term impact. His reply was that yes he too was concerned but his Dad wanted him to develop the Curve. I think coach should have had a sit down with Dad and laid down the law...

Two years later we faced the same team and I asked that coach where/how that player was doing and he pointed to the OF and said he could not pitch any more due to arm trouble - enough said.

Phillip - good luck on your pursuits! Thanks for your comments

My son threw 80-90% CBs at 9-21YO and he also played 1st and CF and he is still going strong.

Some of you guys do tell great stories though.

Nice to hear of a Canuck who has done well.

Genetics will produce Anomalies in every occasion.

I did not know snow balls could curve! (just kidding)

My son performs better when he throws a lot. Needs a bull pen in between his 5 day rotation. For his CBs to be sharp he needs to throw a lot.
He is on a summer collegiate team and is struggling because they don't work out or practice. He finds it frustrating. He also struggled after his 2 weeks off for exams. He has to throw and you can really see the difference when he dosen't throw a lot. Other pitchers seem to not need the work load.

I cannot understand why no one has said yet that this "five games in four days" NEVER HAPPENED!!! My Husband was the Coach of Phillip Clinard for many years, coaching him in s****r, football & baseball beginning when Phillip was just 4 years old. When we spoke with Phillip after the article, he was very upset that the Reporter had taken what he said "out of context". It is very sad that what was written in the Dallas Morning News is totally incorrect, and yet there is no recourse! These Coaches have an impeccable reputation. Once again,"five games in four days" NEVER HAPPENED!

5 games in 4 days could very well have happened, it's a matter of if he pitches in all of them. (This is a guess)

I spent a week in Tulsa one day....