Dealing with injuries

My Son fractured his femur and is out for his final year of high school baseball. It is a very tough time for him. I would encourage you to follow your doctors advice and if any surgery is recomended, after a 2nd opinion, I would encourage your Son to get the surgery done ASAP so that he can rehad and be ready for his Junior year.

3boysmom,
I am sorry to hear about your son's situation and the MRI should tell you what is going on (if anything of serious nature).

Let us know when you get the results of the MRI.
A good lesson to be learned, a pitcher needs to stop what he is doing as soon as he feels uncomfortable.

Floridafan,
You have a pm

Back at you!

We just had one of our sophomore's go to Dr. Andrew's for severe shoulder pains after bullpen throwing. He had a severe(?) case of tendonitis due to the fact that all his large muscles had developed just fine but it was all the small muscles in the shoulder area that were underdeveloped and needed much strengthening. All the pressure a shoulder goes through when pitching was causing a great amount of stress on these small muscle groups. PT was his subscribed rememdy as well.

You can never go wrong by going to the doctor and following it up with a 2nd opinion. Follow their recommendations and work your rear end off.

There is a difference between pain and hurt.

Pain - something is wrong with your body. Things are not working correctly. Stop and get it fixed before it gets worse.

Hurt - discomfort that will not get worse or lead to other problems. You can play through this.

It is DIFFICULT to sometimes know the difference and when in doubt assume it's pain and get it fixed.

It's better to miss his sophomore year and play junior senior years and possibly further.

Floridafan - that is terrible and my heart goes out to your son. I can sympathize with him because I hurt my knee the week before we played sectional tournament my senior year. It stinks.

May I ask what is the difference between pain and real pain, the terms used in the originating post?

To me pain is pain


I agree with coach -- hurt and pain are two different concepts

There is a differnce between soreness and pain.

If something hurts, unlike the usual soreness or pain, IMO, it's a signal to stop what you are doing, rest or seek advice immediately from a qualified person.

I can tell you from experience that something "hurt" my son, which should have been addressed immediately. In his own mind he contributed it to a long season. I think it was a signal to stop what he was doing and rest. His hurt turned to pain and diagnosed as severe tendinitous causing him to miss his entire first pro season and almost 3 months of rehab.


We are not doctors and giving advice to play through "hurt" not knowing the entire situation is just ridiculous.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
You can never go wrong by going to the doctor and following it up with a 2nd opinion. Follow their recommendations and work your rear end off.

There is a difference between pain and hurt.

Pain - something is wrong with your body. Things are not working correctly. Stop and get it fixed before it gets worse.

Hurt - discomfort that will not get worse or lead to other problems. You can play through this.

It is DIFFICULT to sometimes know the difference and when in doubt assume it's pain and get it fixed.

It's better to miss his sophomore year and play junior senior years and possibly further.

Floridafan - that is terrible and my heart goes out to your son. I can sympathize with him because I hurt my knee the week before we played sectional tournament my senior year. It stinks.

Coach, I agree that there is a difference between the two, but you know my definitions are reversed

I think its "hurt" or "injured", both cause pain. Sometimes the pain caused by an injury is not as bad as the pain when just hurt, or the other way around

Hurt is pain but not serious, nothing out of place, broken or torn. Probably able to play through w/o causing injury, not always able to know. Sometimes playing just hurt will alter the way you move and end up causing an injury somewhere else.

Injury is pain and real damage to something that needs to be addressed medically

Still at the time of the pain its not always possibly to know if you're "hurt" or "injured".

knowing the difference between "hurt" & "injured"... if you're not sure err on the side of caution. In particular if its a bone or a joint.

In the original post when I first referred to having shoulder pain it was more soreness. The 'real' pain was shooting, severe pain. I'm sorry, I did not choose the best wording.

Its a very tough pill to swallow indeed. As hard as it is to do,he just has to rest.I found that to be the best medicine with my injury

I had 2 stress fractures on my spine,and was only cleared at the beginning of January.I sat out for 4 months of practice.I still have pain in my back,and my range of motion and explosiveness will likely never be the same again.I COULD HAVE USED MORE TIME OFF

Take as much time as he needs to heal,and listen to the doctors

I have been teaching baseball professionally for 30 years now and in the first 20 years I taught the “traditional throwing mechanics” with all the problems associated with it like Elbow injuries, Shoulder injuries, Back and leg injuries. Ten years ago I started testing on my self a new and superior throwing mechanic. I have been teaching these mechanics to all my clients now for 8 years and have had no injuries ”None” since I started teaching them. I personally pitch 800 to 1,200 throws of which half are maximum effort daily, that’s 6 days a week. I now never use a pitching machine like I used to have to use 5 days a week. All you have to do is go to DrMikeMarshall.com and read all of his material, it is all-free, and He is the only one who has it right. When your son gets his Dr.’s release to start throwing again, never go back to the way he did it before!!!!

Yardbird could you point out the difference between Marshalls motion and the classic motin ? Also how does it reduce injury ?

BobbleheadDoll,

Dr.Marshalls mechanics differ in that they allow your body to throw more like an Outfielder from the mound, which in turn causes many mechanical improvements in linear motion, Muscular advantage and injury preventive Kineseological articulation.
Because these mechanics do not cause injury the athletes can train with 100’s of times more resistance for strength to withstand Ballistic Kinetic movements.

His main discoveries are whether you use his full mechanics or acquiesce with a leg lift are to:

1. Pendulum swing your arms up to drive line height before you glove arm touches ground.
2. Do not over rotate your shoulders past parallel to the driveline.
3. Lock your Humerus in line with your chest at drive line height.
4. Drive ball inside of vertical (over center mass).
5. Pronate your forward drive.
6. Pronate all releases.
7. Create powerful late rotation and pronation snap.

Yes he definitely needs to go get an MRI. The doctors say that if you have tingling in your ring finger and small finger then most likely a ligament is torn.

I think this (below) is what he is experiencing. I would be interested to hear what the diagnosis ends up being. Could you let us know?

STRESS REACTION:
Upper-limb stress injuries to bone are relatively rare, accounting for 2.8-8.2% of stress fractures among athletes [1, 2]. These injuries are caused by an imbalance between bone tissue breakdown and repair in response to physical activity. At normal levels of activity, the two processes are in balance. In cases of physical overuse, however, tissue breakdown exceeds repair, and a stress response occurs in the bone. Female athletes may be at slightly higher risk of stress injury than men owing to impairment of repair mechanisms caused by associated menstrual irregularity and eating disorders (female athlete triad)

YARDBIRD .... Mike Marshall is had his system for thirty years. In that time how many of his students have played pro ball or major D1 using his mechanics? I'll save you the trouble. The answer is none. Even Jeff Sparks (the Marshall poster boy) didn't completely use Marshall's mechanics. This is all I'm going to say on the subject. There are a couple of posters on another board touting Marshall as the greatest pitching coach of all time. It's obnoxious. There are all kinds of claims of greatest, yet who these pitchers are is a secret. I found one. He had a 7.07 ERA with a 2+ WHIP (lack of control) at an obscure D3 in Massachuetts. Can you do better. Give me a name. I could give you my MM pitcher's name but there's no sense invading the privacy of a kid with a 7.07 ERA. Show me on the field of competition where Marshall's techniques have been successful at high levels of ball.

RJM,

I believe the discussion was about throwing injuries not who has played pro ball. Last year in pro ball after just two months there was 98 pro pitchers on the DL from throwing related injuries, this group of players is a perfect example of how not to apply force to a baseball. The injury ratios in all high level (High school Varsity, JC, College and Pro) baseball from throwing is alarming and in a state of non-change.
At every level players play against their peers and it does not matter what level you play at when it comes to injuries. Players that I have trained using Marshall’s mechanics have performed very well and are now just old enough to be considered for the draft and College.

I am sure you hope these techniques pan out when these children become men?
Have you tried them yourself?
I have already noticed in the last 5 years a definite change in MLB pitchers towards
Marshals mechanics and as time goes by these men will start to test and implement them on their own and it will be difficult for them because of their propreoceptive awareness problems from throwing traditionally.

30 years ago Dr.Marshall worked with many NFL QB’s to get them to pronate the football and now they all pronate the football. In that same time MLB coaches and players whom are mostly uneducated when it comes to Physiology, Kinesiology and motor skill acquisition have refused to implement mechanical change and you see what the result is.

Yardbird do you have a video of a pitcher with Marshalls mechanics ?

I personally don’t swallow what he is selling. I think he is an opportunist using big words and preying on people’s fears.
You cannot relate throwing a FB to pitching. You also can't relate an OF to a pitchers motion. They are throwing on a different plane.
If the method was good MLB would embrace it. Who would be stupid enough to not want to save all those injuries from happening to very expensive pitchers? In fact he is considered some what of a joke. I personnaly haven't see an actual guy throw with his mecahnics to say one way or the other.

BobbleheadDoll,

“Yardbird do you have a video of a pitcher with Marshalls mechanics?”
I quit using video 20 years ago as a waste of time, If a parent will bring in game video I will look at it, I also request game video to look at the slower mechanics like the start of a swing or the start of the delivery but any of the ballistic movements can not be seen well enough to diagnose anything so I stick with stricked Motor skill development.
When the price of the newer Digital Hi speed video cameras comes down I will again return to video analysis. Marshall has free video for you to see at his site. Check out the end of his video it shows one of his pitchers who worked his way into the Big leagues using his leg lift version of his drive mechanics.

“I personally don’t swallow what he is selling. I think he is an opportunist using big words and preying on people’s fears.”
He is not selling anything, it’s all free at his web site, and He is an honorable man who has spent his whole adult life researching the way to eliminate injuries from the throwing motion. Fear is one of the reasons all dismiss his findings!

“You cannot relate throwing a FB to pitching.”
I can relate them, you may not wish to.

“You also can't relate an OF to a pitchers motion. They are throwing on a different plane.”
I just related them and Marshall’s mechanics are considered Crow- step mechanics that allows you to throw more like an outfielder than a traditional pitch mechanic.

“If the method was good MLB would embrace it.”
Many in the MLB are already stating to embrace it they just will not let go of there Traditional leg lift and that’s OK because even with the inferior leg lift these drive lines work. Kevin Gregg comes close with his delivery but fails with the drivelines.

“Who would be stupid enough to not want to save all those injuries from happening to very expensive pitchers? “
Being uneducated has its costs. Do you think the owners of these teams are aware of Marshalls methods or have been told by their coaching staffs.

“In fact he is considered some what of a joke”
Galileo was considered somewhat of a joke by Pope Urban the V111 we know how that turned out. Every detractor of these mechanics that I have ever ran into has never tried them, this group I like to call the “Urban league”.

“I personnaly haven't see an actual guy throw with his mecahnics to say one way or the other.”
So why did you comment about them negatively?

UPDATE

We got a call from his doctor yesterday telling us that the MRI showed a SLAP tear in his labrum. He is referring him to a specialist in his office that has more experience with this particular injury. They are scheduling him for surgery but the soonest they can do it is May 1. He is pretty upset right now and wants to get it done right away. As it stands he will not be able to play this spring but wont be rehabbing as he will be waiting for surgery. I have asked that he be added to their cancellation list in the hopes he can get in sooner. I am now doing my research to make sure that the doctor we have been referred to is the best for our son.

3boysmom: I'm sorry to learn of the diagnosis. Bummer. My son, a hs junior at the time, was diagnosed with a SLAP tear, too, and had the surgery in September of his senior year. With a May surgery scheduled, your son should be healed in time for the very important junior year and equally important senior summer and fall seasons.

I hope that the doc's schedule will open up and he'll be able to have the surgery soon. The waiting is a drag! Good luck to you all.

quote:

Originally posted by 3boysmom:
UPDATE

We got a call from his doctor yesterday telling us that the MRI showed a SLAP tear in his labrum. He is referring him to a specialist in his office that has more experience with this particular injury. They are scheduling him for surgery but the soonest they can do it is May 1. He is pretty upset right now and wants to get it done right away. As it stands he will not be able to play this spring but wont be rehabbing as he will be waiting for surgery. I have asked that he be added to their cancellation list in the hopes he can get in sooner. I am now doing my research to make sure that the doctor we have been referred to is the best for our son.

oh, wow, a SLAP tear is quite painful. I didn't realize it was this serious. You did say a shooting pain went down his arm but it seemed as though the pain went away and he was still throwing but perhaps when the pain went down his arm he stopped throwing and did not continue at all. I have heard of this SLAP tear before but I have seen that more with people who break their fall than I have with pitchers. I knew a pitcher who took a long time to recover from a SLAP (probably because he did not follow the recommendations of the doctor to a tee). Did they do the MRI with contrast? I assume so (which means they had to inject the shoulder with a substance)?

Bolded taken from below web-site
Diagnosis of a SLAP tear can be quite difficult, as these injuries may not show up well on MRI scans. SLAP tears tend to be seen best on MRI when the study is performed with an injection of contrast. A contrast MRI is performed by injecting a fluid called gadolinium into the shoulder; the gadolinium helps to highlight tears of normal structures, including SLAP tears. Sometime the diagnosis of a SLAP tear is made at the time of surgery.

I would like to know how the surgury goes and when the doctor says he can throw again after the surgery. The Bicep muscle is involved as well so I would be interested to know the therapy they put him on.

http://orthopedics.about.com/cs/generalshoulder/a/slap.htm

Yardbird the negative comments are what I have heard. I believe I asked for you help in showing me actual video so I can see what you describe in your your promotion. If I am negative it is because I have always heard a lot of talk but no video.
You seem to be adding more talk.
Show me what you are talking about.
If as you claim it will help prevent injuries I am sure many would be interested.
When I read about Marshall I can't help but get the gut feeling he is ******* in the gullable. Show me I am wrong.

OHHHHH NOOOO we have a Dr. Marshall bigot in the house....

Quick run for the door....

3boysmom,
I am sorry to hear about the diagnosis, but switchitter brings up good points, did you son have contrast with the MRI?
I would definetly be sure that is the diagnose before you proceed with surgery. I think that sometimes surgery seems to be teh solution when it can lead to other issues. Shoulder surgery is not always a success.

I do not believe that he had the MRI with contrast. His dad took him in for the test as I had to take the 7 year old to his basketball game. We are taking him and his MRI to a different doctor for a second opinion. That appointment is on March 3 so I feel we will know a lot more after that. If we do have to proceed with surgery we will go forward with the second doctor as we have gotten recommendations from his pitching coach and a few others and he can do it much sooner than May 1.

When stating an opinion about a subject especially one dealing with debilitating injuries it is always better to take the high road and embrace the possibilities. I have no video but will work on it. The fact that I am willing to come on to a Nationally known message board and relate through words what I have practiced, taught and witnessed might lend it self to some kind of believability. When you hear people give their opinion on something they really know nothing about or are very willing to make up false statements about the subject in a negative light, maybe their motives should be questioned not the messenger.
When I tell you something here I am fully aware that everything I say will go down in posterity to be easily brought back at a later time, so maybe lying about it would not be a good idea.

Dr.Marshall works primarily on rehabbing injured adult pitchers, He is the worlds leading expert in the field and has determined the cause of all throwing related injuries and how to fix the injurious mechanic that caused them.

Right now he is working on an X-pro named Joe who pitched for the Mets organization. Joe suffered a SLAP lesion and was told to get it surgically repaired by the Mets Dr’s.
Joe decided to give Dr.Marshall a call and hear his recommendation. Dr.Marshall told him not to go under the knife and he would fix his throwing mechanic and the Labrum tear would not be affected anymore. Joe now is throwing maximal effort with no pain anymore and he trains 100 fold more resistance than the traditional motion can be trained at.

When the surgeon is done ask him how to apply force to the baseball and see what he has to say, I guarantee you he will have no clue and tell you to go back to your pitching coach to learn good mechanics when the “Traditional mechanic” is what landed him in the OR.

quote:

Dr.Marshall works primarily on rehabbing injured adult pitchers, He is the worlds leading expert in the field and has determined the cause of all throwing related injuries and how to fix the injurious mechanic that caused them.

Right now he is working on an X-pro named Joe who pitched for the Mets organization. Joe suffered a SLAP lesion and was told to get it surgically repaired by the Mets Dr’s.
Joe decided to give Dr.Marshall a call and hear his recommendation. Dr.Marshall told him not to go under the knife and he would fix his throwing mechanic and the Labrum tear would not be affected anymore. Joe now is throwing maximal effort with no pain anymore and he trains 100 fold more resistance than the traditional motion can be trained at.

When the surgeon is done ask him how to apply force to the baseball and see what he has to say, I guarantee you he will have no clue and tell you to go back to your pitching coach to learn good mechanics when the “Traditional mechanic” is what landed him in the OR.

Is this self proclaimed leading expert ?

The 1st mistake you make is that you say I know nothing about this. I have know about DR Marshall for years and all I ever hear is BS. The video of how pitchers throw differently would go a long way to make me a believer. His BS is all about the magic pill and geared to extract money from his desciples. Do you really believe that people whould not embrace his motion if it actuall was true. I would be the 1st in line even if my son has not had an arm injury. My opinion is it is hokus pokus . If he had discovered the miracle pitching motion it would be the new classical motion. It is all about "pay me and I will reveal the secret" so superstar Jonny will not hurt his arm and ruin his MLB prospects. You sound like you are on the pay role. No video ? after all these years ? Interesting ?

Nothing like a good hook to get people to part with their money.

How did we morph from a discussion on how to deal with injuries to a promotion for "DR" Mike Marshall?

Can we say SHILL !!!!!

BobbleheadDoll,

I have answered your direct questions about where to go to look at video.
I have told you that he does not charge a dime for any of his information. Injury prevention is what he is all about yet you seem to have an agenda? If you are taking what you know about Marshall from nay sayers who only speculate about what it does and how to do it then I understand where you are coming from.
If you actually go and study the site you may learn a great deal and come away with a different view.

Trhit,

You could say shill but that would involve selling something and since all of this information is free at his website I wish to only pass it on. I was talking about the subject of throwing related injuries that Bobble turned into something else, why? I do not know but maybe because they bought one of the charging Gurus mechanical plans and it failed on them? I can understand that.

The info that he emails you is free. The program is for money. I received his emails which as I said are a lot of talk. Yes they are free but they are about getting you tos isgn up for the program. I still have not seen a video or anything that shows me he has a "Marshall" motion that is different than the traditional beliefs.
I can assure you that DR Andres and his associates understand the application of force on a BB and still still have no definitive answer nor have they come out and said Wow you guys should all throw like Marshall preaches. That will save you from injury. Hasn't happened and never will.
Give me a link to an actual video and tell me what is different.

3boysmom, I too am sorry to hear about the injury. However, and I know this doesn't help now, he is a sophomore. He has a lot of good baseball left. If I could, I'd make sure that the coaching staff knows. I'd encourage your son to be active in the program if the coaching staff allows it. There are a lot of things your son could learn. Included in these would be opportunities to chart pitches which would enable him to learn how the coaching staff thinks, possibilities that the school trainer if you have one will be in on the surgery and rehab from the start, and to be honest an opportunity to be around the coaches in a manner that will demonstrate to the coaches that your son truly loves the game. JMHO!

I'M SURE THIS MOM ISN'T CONCERNED ABOUT ANY PITCHING WARS. Please, start a thread in the pitching forum and battle it out. (Of course I recommend that since I'm not the moderator there. )

As I have said before it is better to have to have the injury, if you are goingto have one, before you get deep into the recruiting process---there is still plenty of time to make things work---good luck with the surgery/PT process

B25 it is about injuries and his claim that it prevents injuries.

quote:

Originally posted by 3boysmom:
UPDATE

We got a call from his doctor yesterday telling us that the MRI showed a SLAP tear in his labrum. He is referring him to a specialist in his office that has more experience with this particular injury. They are scheduling him for surgery but the soonest they can do it is May 1. He is pretty upset right now and wants to get it done right away. As it stands he will not be able to play this spring but wont be rehabbing as he will be waiting for surgery. I have asked that he be added to their cancellation list in the hopes he can get in sooner. I am now doing my research to make sure that the doctor we have been referred to is the best for our son.

Can a slap tear be performed arthroscopically? I know a rotator cuff tear can be, which really speeds up recovery. I'd be interested to know.
In an RC tear done arthroscopically, three to four incisions are made for all the instruments and they usually use metal or bioabsorbable screws passed down through canulas (tubes) to "double-row" a mounting position for the torn tendon (which is reattached to bone using suture tie-downs). They then shave down quite a bit of bone spur (acromian) to allow more range of the shoulder flexion down the road but it also helps with the surgeon's view of the procedure. If normal shoulder surgery is performed, you have to fight through the huge shoulder muscle and if that detaches or separates from the bone then you have a huge problem.
The "scope" procedure is much more expensive to perform and fewer doctors can do it, but the rewards seem substantial without even including scarring.

UPDATE: I did find a procedure that is arthroscopic for the SLAP lesion or tear. This would tell me that you probably already know that the procedure for the "SLAP" is going to be an arthroscopic procedure (which is great if so!). Here is a very brief glance at the procedure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyd5MCbj774

I'll look for a full video of the procedure -- hopefully I can find one and post it here to prepare you for what is to come. I hope everything turns out great!!!

2ND UPDATE!
Here is a great video of arthroscopic surgery to a rotator cuff tear, HOWEVER, when they went in to repair rotator they immediately see a SLAP injury as well which they go ahead and repair first. This provides a great view of the SLAP (Labral) injury (which shows red and pinkish-white labral tear injury-you can see separation). The explanation using the plastic model by Dr. Henry is VERY informative. I hope this helps prepare you and your son.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEMGu2dMLH8&feature=related

regarding my above post. follow-up medical report based on the bottom-most surgical procedure. the tendon did attach to the bone with that double-row technique just fine. in fact with great adhesion/purchase.