Defensive 1rst & 3rd, question about MIF pick

Yeah this is all read on 2B part when we run this.  I've seen where SS runs the cut but I just think it's harder to see runner on 3B to make a good decision.  The 2B has the play in front of him developing to help determine let it go or cut and make play at 3B.  

The one thing I try to teach is if you cut the ball then you better go for the runner at 3B.  There's no point in cutting this throw and standing there.  That accomplishes nothing.  If they make the cut then they better make a play on the runner at 3B.

MIF cut is not an option for us because we run it in a little different manner.  What is an option for us in the throw through.  MIF are allowed to cut the ball and make a play on R3 on a throw through.

 I think that should be two different plays.  You run the option play if you like your catcher's chance at getting the runner at 2nd,  and you also like your 2nd baseman's arm and judgement.  You do the mandatory cut if the game situation dictates that the man on 3rd cannot score, and/or if you know the catcher has no prayer to get the runner at 2nd.

BTW - I like the sign misdirection idea. Cute, but does the catcher pick up the sign too?  He ought to know the play. Reminds me of LL - we'd have the catcher do all kinds of signs, but where he was standing relative to the plate was the "real" sign.

Do you guys ALWAYS run the MIF cut on every 1st / 3rd steal situation but have it precalled to be cut or go through?  Or do you sometimes play it straight up and throw through?

And just to make sure we are all on the same page - you're talking about the SS or 2B getting in the area just behind the mound and in front of the bag at second to cut throw from catcher for potential play on runner on third - correct?

I'm not a HS coach.  Just travel.

We used several plays for 1st and 3rd that would be called depending on the situation.

#1 is back to the pitcher

#2 is throw down to 2nd

#3 is fake to 2nd and throw to 3rd if there is anything there.

#4 is throw down with 2nd baseman option (yes, he gets between bag and mound)

#5 is throw down with 2nd baseman mandatory cut

Yes, the C knows whether his throw is being cut or allowed to go through.

Here's how it goes:

Let's assume I've decided I want our MIF to move in cut position if their R1 tries to steal.

Our C looks to the bench to see if it's throw-thru, MIF cut, P-cut, or pump-fake.

I give MIF cut sign to him.

Our C steps in front of the plate, signs the MIF cut, then gets back behind the plate, all of which takes maybe 10 seconds.

Our C looks to bench again.  Our MIFs look there too.

If I'm casually rubbing my nose (as if pondering what pitch to call), we're cutting the ball. If not, it's going through.

Believe it or not, I started doing it this way because it gives me an added ~10 seconds to ponder whether to cut it or let it through.

We sometimes play it straight up.

coach2709,

I don't mean to be argumentative, but if I'm reading this right, you have enough faith in your MIF to allow him to decide whether or not to cut the ball, but you don't have faith in his judgment to possibly eat the ball if a play on R3 looks unfavorable? (R3 is almost at home plate, or R3 didn't stray far from third base).

#4 is throw down with 2nd baseman option (yes, he gets between bag and mound)

The reasons we don't run this as an option play:

1.  Decision-making: I can't prove it, but I believe that over the course of a season we win more games if I decide ahead of time instead of having a 16 yr-old reading and reacting on the fly--under game pressure--in a close game--with an R3 less than 90ft from the plate.

2. Execution:  In the event that the MIFcut opts to allow it through--Unless the MIFcut is playing unusually shallow, even a slight delay in reacting to "Going!" will result in the MIF cut not having enough time to get far enough in front of second base to avoid screening the MIF at the bag.

btw, the reason I wrote "under game pressure--in a close game" is because that's the only time any of this matters, right?  If you're up by 7, everybody in the park knows you're throwing through. If you're down by 7, you're not.

We always took the out at 2nd base, I was always blessed with a good catcher and my pitchers worked very hard to keep the runner close.

I have found that the runner at 1st hardly ever runs at 100%. (maybe they don't think we will throw through because they don't like to)

After my catcher gives the sign, he always looks at 3b to make the runner think its coming his way. (I love it when the 3b coach tells him to stay close watch the fake)

when the catcher throws a bullet head high to 2nd have your pitcher fake a cut just to freeze the runner at 3b.

I would never give up a base without putting up a fight somewhere!

Doctor,

You've described what I would usually do if I always had really good catchers who reliably threw head-high bullets, and an entire pitching staff who was quick to the plate.

Usually my catchers are pretty good, but not really good.

Completely understand your question - no argument at all.

I expect and coach our 2B to come across and decide if there is a chance at the runner at third or not.  What we teach is to look at distance from the base and direction of shoulders turned.  

If the runner is fairly close to third then shoulders don't matter - let the throw go through to SS.

If the runner is far off (let's say a step or two outside of the cutout and down towards home) then we cut and go after him.  Maybe run at him or throw to our 3B.

If it's that middle area that's tough to determine if they are too far or not far enough we teach look at shoulders.  If the shoulders are turned toward home then we cut and make the play at 3B.  If the shoulders are square or turned back to 3B then we let the throw go through.

The vast majority of throws are going to go through to 2B.  But on that off chance the other team wants to try something they will tip their hand with either an aggressive lead (we cut) or they will start toward home with shoulders (we cut) a little early.  Outside of that the throw goes through with the 2B making the fake cut action as they come across.

Early in pre - season practice we will have OF off doing something else while we work this with coaches simulating runners at 3B.  We know what to give the guys in terms of looks as they come across so we get early teaching points in.  As the season progresses then we will incorporate the whole team being baserunners because it helps us work our 1st / 3rd offense while working our defense at same time.  We might spend a 20 minute block on this twice during the week in pre - season and a 10 minute block once a week during the season.

The reason I posted I don't want them cutting and holding a throw is by doing this we have given up a base without any attempt to get them out.  If a throw is cut then it better be because we have a very good chance of getting the runner at 3B.  Overall, we don't run the MIF cut play all that much except late in games or if we know the team is aggressive.  When you run this play you open yourself up to the offensive team start doing nothing but hitting and running on you.  This opens up your defense and all they have to do is put bat on ball and you're in trouble.

Last thought, and I think this will get us on the same page, if my 2B is coming across on a bad throw I want them to cut it then.  No point in putting the SS in bad spot to try and save the run.

Agreed and this is basically how we teach it. More often than not the throw goes through to the SS.

In addition, we'll call Green or Red from the dugout to indicate if we care about the runner at 3b or if we care about getting an out. It comes in very handy on the "leave early" or shenanigan type plays. Keeps the decision making process out of the kids' hands on which runner to key on. 

To answer the question..... 2nd baseman has choice to cut if we run this play. If I do not want it going all the way through, why throw it all the way? We will cut with the pitcher or pump fake with the catcher and go to 3rd. Like I said in a couple other topic post we have not taught this play the last two years.  Our MIF throw well enough to to come off the bag and throw home if R3 tries to score.

We have these calls

#1 Pitcher cut... even if not cutting he should fake like he is.

#2 Cut throw with 2nd baseman.... not running this year

#3 Throw to third... catcher has option on how to do this. He can straight throw or pump fake.

#4 Second baseman has bag and taking throw from catcher.

#6 SS has bag and taking throw from catcher.

No matter what is called our catcher's first job is to get the runner at 3rd if he can.

This is one of the things I love about coaching baseball. The players have to think.  There is no way you can tell them every single thing that can happen in every single situation that can come up.

d8,

You don't have 2b move into cut position to cut throws.

Does he ever move into cut position to freeze R3?

I quit doing this because we seemed to get burned with the second baseman out of position leaving the whole right side open for a base hit.