Destroying Arms

It really is scary to see what some coaches will do for today. Last week my son's Pony team (13-14 year olds) played against another team in the area. The starting pitcher for the other team was a 13 YO who had not pitched all year due to a sore elbow (according to their manager). He proceed to throw a complete game, 7 innings with 124 pitches (from my scorebook). I would guess that 40+ of the pitches were curveballs - essentially he threw one every time he was ahead in the count.

Their team (and ours) are both winding down sub .500 seasons - nothing about this game mattered from a playoffs or anything else perspective. The pitcher wasn't particularly effective, giving up 11 runs in a 11 - 4 loss.

I just don't get it...

Most of the time 2-3 innings is plenty for a pitcher at this age. Also allows a coach to develop more arms.

Once a 10U kid gets up to 60 pitchs he is going to be getting tired...in most cases.

Also many of these kids aren't throwing enough between games. I think this is a major cause of arm troubles. Kids need to play a lot of catch.

While we have not yet gotten to High School Baseball, I have found that several coaches at the 12U level DO NOT UNDERSTAND HAVING A PITCHING ROTATION! Even starting at an early age, Kids from 9-12U shouldn't usually be pitching more than 40-70 pitches per game!

There is entirely NO REASON FOR THIS!

I know of two boys now who now can't even throw more than 30 pitches each...Moreover, they are no longer effective and can't pitch with any velocity!

After seeing kids now, it is very easy to tell which ones have been schooled in a rotation with 3-4 other pitchers...The one's that pitch in a rotation are more fresh and seem to be able to consistently make their pitches without arm problems....Heck, one of our pitchers broke his hand at the beginning of the season this year playing basketball!

At this age it's not only NOT WORTH IT for the boys, they still have to deal with growth plates, etc. which also has all sorts of issues surrounding puberty...


If you son is ever going to excel and to have the opportunity to play for High School or even College, you must set limits!

And what is it all about !!!!!!!!!

The team "coach" getting a "trophy" to hang on his wall or place in his trophy cabinet and to be able to say "we" won the 8U World Series or something like that !!!

Walk into a "Academy" or "Team Base" and look at all the "trophies" -- it is their selling point--WE WIN !!!

Yes -- there are good coaches and good programs at the younger levels but there are not as many as there should be and it is the same at the upper levels

Something to think about for the LL stage:

In our LL we had a 6 Saturday course and exam, in February, that all interested coaches had to take and be certified to coach with us-- it got us better coaches and lowered our insurance rates-- AND it was funny how it filtered out all the "wannabes" as they were too busy or felt it was beneath them to go thru this process--


an added thought--

If we did away with 112U,11U,10U,9U and 8U Tournaments it might help the arm overuse situation--if we cannot control what the coahes do perhaps not putting them in that position will help

TR - I kind of like your idea of getting rid of tournaments for young kids, but I seriously doubt it will happen. In fact, as you know, I see more and more of these tournaments and organizations popping up. Some have absolutely no pitching rules to keep the coaches/managers in check.

You see very few young kids that are effective after 50-60 pitches. That ought to tell us all something.

The sacrafice bunt is the only thing that should be sacraficed in the name of winning. Over just the last six years I have seen tournaments relax their pitching rules to the point that they could get rid of them and not make much difference. The reason for this is the same reason that 12u and younger tournaments will not go away. Money. Tournaments make money.

Pitching rules are relaxed for the purpose of attracting more teams. Pitching has become so diluted across so many select teams today that if strict pitching rules were enforced many teams that travel to out of town tournatments would be unable to compete because they don't have enough quality pitchers to be competitive. Top USSSA major teams needed a minimum of 7 very good pitchers to be competitive at the USSSA WS. Now with their super regional setup it probably takes 10 or 11 top pitchers to really make a serious run at the title.

My son played on such a team for three off the last 6 years and plays against a local team that is set up this way now. Generally these teams baserunning and defensive performances are subpar but they are very tough to beat due to their pitching. In a lot of ways, these teams play a different game and can be very succeful if your son is a real (and I mean real) stud pitcher. (mine isn't in love with pitching but likes to come in and close a game now and then)

We did so much traveling in the past that as 14Us now, we are selective about the tournaments we enter and are much more interested in playing tournaments that have teams that we haven't seen. We palyed the Easton Super Series in Omaha last weekend and were the only local team. It was great. It was very competitive with teams that would rank in the middle to upper middle range of in USSSA majors but not at the top. Most of the teams had about 2 quality stating pitchers with a healthy fall off after that. Kinda like the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears, not to good, not to bad, but just right.

I was watching a 14U tournament game this weekend, as a casual observer. The starting pitcher for one of the teams had pitched an outstanding game, leading 7-0 after 6 innings. I overheard one of the parents, who was keeping a scorebook, estimate the boy's pitch count to be in the 80-90 range at that point.

The kid came back to the mound for the 7th inning and got two outs fairly quickly. That's when his control left him. Several walks and hits later, the score was 7-5. I overheard the parent with the book say that he had thrown over 40 pitches at that point. The coaches finally pulled the kid at around the 50th pitch (in that inning) with the score 7-6 and the bases loaded.

Either way you look at it - 50 pitches in the inning, or 130-140 for the game - that's way too many pitches for a 14-year-old IMO.

I can one up that. We were meeting for our Dizzy Dean 14 U end of season tournament. We were talking and figured out that one pitcher during the regular season pitched 23 innings in four days not counting 3 other games that week that no one knew how many he pitched. Can you imagine he hurt his arm last week and could not pitch? Unreal. I get worried when I pitch my kids 4 innings at a time.

1st game today for us in the Nebraska state tournament 14U majors. Opponent pitched one pitcher who threw ~120 pitches, 95% all curvballs. By the end of the third inning he was throwing with his elbow low and no longer had his fingers on top of the ball. His rather good mechanics in the 1st inning had totally deteriorated.

Our team 8 runned them in the 5th.

This kind of behaviour, by the adult in charge of looking out for the kids saftey no less, is child abuse. This is precisely the kind of thing that causes me to question highly competitive youth sports. Somehow, through luck or whatever, I have managed to keep my son involved in highly competitive baseball without him suffering or being put in an abusive situation. He has had coaches that, for the most part, were able to separate their desire to win from their responsibility to their players safety. Obnoxious parents aside, he has had a very postive experience over the last 6 years. I have seen so much bad and abusive coaching that I wonder if more kids are hurt rather then helped trying to compete in high stakes competition at such young ages. I do think that the kids handle it better then most of the adults who are in control of the childs sports experience.

Had to rant...It just makes my blood boil to see a kid abused like that on a team that really belongs at the AA or AAA level and probably would be if not for the coaches highly infalted ego. Even if they were to beat us, the kid still loses. Sad!

they are all a bunch of a**holes. All they care about is making themselves look good and not about the well being of the kids. To me having a 12 year old kid throwing a 150 pitches in a game and throwing loads of curveballs then pitching 3 days later should be considered CHILD ABUSE.

heatthrower96

I'm only 16 now, but when I'm an adult little league baseball will be a different game at least on my team.

Pitching is much more delicate than the average person believes it to be! Conditioning and proper mechanics are of utmost importance BEFORE allowing a child to take his place on the mound! Unfortunately, many coaches skip these fundamental steps and simply choose their "hardest" throwers as their starting pitchers! Ideally, I try to spread the workload amongst most of my players...sometimes that's not an option if you want to remain competitite! However, the least a coach should be doing is to keep a pitch count. I believe pitching is so important, that we actually have an MLB pitching instructor at our practices every week, working with all of our players. Even the ones who don't think they can pitch! It is unreasonable to think every team has this option, but at least an effort should be made to invite a couple of college pitchers, who are more than happy to stop by and help out! I often see teams spending their money to secure rent space at a batting cage, when there are so many other options available. Instead, I would think they would secure some time for pitching instructions instead...That's just my opinion!

As the opposing coach in a situation where you see a kid being abused you could always rufuse to send a batter to the plate with that pitcher on the mound. You might have to forfeit but if it's not about winning anyway you could make a point.

In my opinion, the issue is that there is NOT a "one-size-fits-all" answer to pitching and pitch counts. Each player has a different capacity to throw safely, and it even varies between outings for the same player. As the parent of a pitcher you really need to educate yourself on the mechanics of pitching and then stay on top of the situation. Your son will also need to understand at an early age how important it is to be totally honest with the coach about how their arm is feeling. They need to learn the difference between normal fatigue and pain, and that pain is never something you "play through". As a parent, to protect your son's arm, you need to be the bad guy. Even if you are fortunate to have a coach that cares about arm health, it is still difficult for them to know the capacity of every pitcher at any time. IF necessary ... you need to be the one to say "he's done" or "he's not pitching today". Better to be unpopular and have a son with a healthy arm than to please the coach and team at your son's expense.

Drafted a 14yo pitcher this year who I don't think knows the difference between pain and fatigue, but I can't take chances so it is going to be tough getting him ready for the season.

BTW, RHP05Parent,
Did your son play against a kid named Trevor Moore last year? I saw him at a local camp and was impressed with his demeanor on the field.

A few years back when my youngest was 13 we were playing a tournement in the fall. Our team was well known and it seemed that everyone really wanted to make a name for themselves by getting a win over us. The first game we played was on a Friday night and we faced a new team that no one knew much about. Well the kid for the other team takes the hill a big tall lefty and he had good stuff. We finally got to him around the 6th inning and won a close one 4-1. The kid hit 100 pitches in the fifth inning and ended up around 125. Well on Sunday we are showing up at the park and we are told that the this team that we beat Friday night has made it out of the wild card bracket and we will be facing them again. We are sitting there thinking about who they are going to pitch. I look over in the bull pen and guess who is warming up? Yeah thats right the same kid that we saw Friday night. Well the kid has nothing and gets shelled. But thats not the worst of it. The coach leaves him in after the first inning where we scored about 6 runs and he threw about 35 pitches. As I am walking out to coach third base I go by their dug out and I say "Dont you think that kid as thrown enough this weekend coach"? The coach looks at me and says "Hey I'll coach my team you coach yours". Well now Im pissed right. I say I wouldnt have to say anything if you knew anything about coaching. Your killing that kid. The coach says "Thats my son and Ill pitch him untill I say hes had enough". I felt so bad for that kid. He finally took him out after the third inning.

That's just awful Coach May.

Here's a similar one... (pardon me if I've told this before).

Two years ago, our Minors team won our playoffs and moved onto the City Championship. We won our first game, and were in the second. Anyway... they had a LARGE kid on the mound who threw pretty hard, but he was having control problems. I suspect they had ridden him through their playoffs. In the 2nd inning, all of a sudden, he just drops to his knees in front of the mound, clutching his elbow and crying. I'm coaching 1B and their team was in the 1B dugout. So one of them went to the mound to see his pitcher, the other 2 are chatting "I don't know what happened???".

Now, I know I'm not supposed to fraternize w/ the other team during a game, but... I keep a pitch counter on my belt and count both teams pitches. I couldn't help blurting out, "Maybe 72 pitches in 1-2/3 innings is a bit much for a 9YO, huh coach?!!!".

Quick story: A boy that I coached in Tball and am still freinds with the family played against us in a fall tourney. He's a big kid and hard thrower. While we were waiting at a complex to see who we were playing in the finals we heard this team was in extra innings to get to the finals. This kid pitched most of that game and then drove 30 minutes to come play us and his coach started him in our game. He didn't last long and I caught up with his parents after the game to tell them that it was a bad deal to allow him to do that.
I just heard this past week he is schduled for an MRI because of elbow pain.

cball

What was the reaction of the parents when you chastized them ?

Stroy on the same line but at the HS level: I had a 6-3 LHP that a southern college coach flew in to see pitch on a cold Staurday morning-- his team was bad, his catcher even worse (12 PB's) -- the HS coach keeps the kid in and runs up a 150 plus pitch count in cold spring weather and in a losing cause to boot---the college coach goes after the HS coach after the game and really lit into him---The following day the boy calls me and tells me the HS Coach called him and said he , the boy, was in charge from then on---at seasons end the coach gets fired and the boy gets drafted thus turning down the scholarship he had been offered on the fateful day.

The boy is now out of baseball after two arm surgeries-- was it because of that Fateful day?
Who knows? But it certainly did not help the situation.

TRhit,
They played dumb,like "well he only pitched this many innings" and such. They are enthralled with their son being a stud hard throwing 9Yo and I don't believe the are looking past that.

We just started league play and this team was our first opponent. They let the boy pitch again I guess because they want to beat us so bad. I was out of town for the game but heard he really struggled. I have made a point to call the mom and talk reality to her then wash my hands of the situation.

Heres another crazy coach story. This kid as a junior was throwing in the low 90's and was on his way to being a solid draft pick. He pitched the kid 160 pitches and two days later came back with him for over 160 again, mind you these games were in early March in So. Illinois where it is still pretty chilly. Needless to say he has had rotator cuff surgery and is now two years later getting back into the 80's at a local juco.

The following is a article that a friend of mine just sent me. I Blanked out the kids last name since I do not know the actual source of the material. No one will ever ask a kid what his record was when he was 10, 11, 12, etc. Notice what Jarod has to say about all those wins when he was 14 and 15....

Have a great season everybody!
Dave Senor


Jeret -----, 16, started 64 games one summer for his traveling baseball team. Last year he had reconstructive elbow surgery normally associated with major leaguers.

Learning to Play in Spite of the Pain

"My arm hurt for years but I never went to the doctor," said Jeret -----, 16, the Atlanta pitcher, who underwent the surgery named for the Major League Baseball pitcher on whom it was first performed 30 years ago. The surgery involves removing a healthy tendon from one arm and inserting it into the other. Jeret had Tommy John surgery last year after the ulnar collateral ligament in his right elbow snapped in two as he was delivering a pitch.

"You know, like they say, you play with pain. If you're a good pitcher on a team of 14- or 15-year-olds, you're going to be throwing too much. Everybody wants to throw their ace out there."

Jeret was one of 51 high school pitchers upon whom Dr. James Andrews performed elbow reconstructive surgery last year, a tenfold increase from a decade ago.

Dr. Andrews advocates a laundry list of changes. It begins with stopping year-round play in one sport. "At least three months off," he said. For baseball and softball pitchers, he would also ban the radar gun.

"That thing has wrecked more arms," he said. "I'm sick of seeing these kids being torn apart."

Efforts to Reverse the Trend

Next month, a public-service campaign to educate young athletes, their parents and coaches about overuse injuries will be started through a partnership of the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons and the National Athletic Trainers' Association. The campaign includes a poster that shows a youth baseball team celebrating after a game with the headline: "What will they have longer, their trophies or their injuries?"

Jeret ----- is tossing a baseball again and is hopeful about returning to pitching - with a strictly enforced pitch count - by this summer. He wants to pitch in college.

"I'm the living example of someone who did too much," Jeret said. "I would tell young kids coming up now: 'Don't be such a hero. Take a rest.'

"I look back now at all those games I won when I was 14 or 15. They don't mean so much anymore. They weren't worth it."

I can't take anymore of these stories. It is up to people who do know what they are doing to go out and teach these "coaches" what they are doing to youth baseball pitchers.

I don't think most of these coaches mean to do harm. I just think they are clueless.

how that is nuts... as a player im would of told the coach i could not go ne farther (for the team and for myself) did he have the kid throwing sliders and curveballs also??? thats a good way to ruin a young kids arm as well

*wow