Do Showcases and Submariners Mix?

1. I never saw a submariner at a showcase or a scouted tournament. Pitchers usually become submariners for the same reason pitchers become knuckleballers. They're done if they don't. Every submariner I've known of or heard of was made one in college. They had low arm slots and not a lot of velocity. Going submarine kept them in the game for situational pitching.

HPtx posted:

... In 2.5 years, my 6'4" 2017 has gone from throwing a submarine FB from 67 to 74 and has good movement.  So, he is projectable.  ...

My question is whether to focus on colleges specifically and not waste any more money/time on these showcases.  My 2017 is wanting to play ball in college, but is easily frustrated when all the radars go up for the fast pitchers, but they all go in college scouts' laps when he gets his turn on the hill.   

To be honest, HPTX, I don't think you'd find many who would agree that going from 67 to 74 over 2.5 years in HS would equate to "projectable".  The 6'4" part, yeah, but most will not be overly impressed with 74 at that height as a rising senior.  

So, your experience has certainly shown that velo is what draws most attention so your son will have to get past that frustration and target schools accordingly if he wants to play college ball.  Is the showcase a waste?  Depends on whether the right schools are there.  Are they the right target level?  Are they within the scope of schools your son would want to attend?  There are mid 70's sub guys out there, mostly at lower levels, but they have to meet all the other criteria as well...  other performance factors, grades, school match, affordability, etc.  

Your son should have a multi-prong approach, seeking the right schools individually, calling on resources/references such as connected travel coaches and instructors, attending showcases with right schools if feasible, playing with a travel team that will play in front of the right audience, etc.  Yes, submariners are a different breed and some coaches at some levels like them.  Your son just has to get busy finding the right match.

He will also probably have to come to terms with the fact that he is not likely to be recruited with any athletic $.   Just needs to find a fit with a school/coach that feels he would have a shot at earning a roster spot.  Hopefully, his academics are good enough to get some $ if needed. 

One never knows, but if I were you I wouldn't attend a PG showcase.  It's not likely to draw much interest.  We actually have had some submariners, it is always mentioned in their report.  If your son can really pitch I would look for good tournaments that draw college coaches.  A good performance against a good team, can create interest.

If your grades are outstanding you might want to look at HeadFirst.  There might be some DIII colleges there that will be very interested. Or just start sending your info to colleges you might be interested in.

BTW, there is nothing that says your son won't be a very successful college pitcher. Just have to find the right fit.

We had a lefty submariner on our HS team (2016 grad) who is going to a D3 academic school.  He actually pitched more last year as a Jr for our HS than he did this year (most likely because of a bad first outing this year).  I don't believe he went to many showcases last summer - he was on a good travel team that marketed their players well and then I believe he went to that D3's prospect camp in the Fall. He is a lefty obviously so it's a bit different than your son but we used to joke about how low his velo was.  During a scrimmage between regular season and playoffs he pitched an inning and we gunned him - he hit 77 multiple times.  I think he was sick of all the remarks about throwing 65.   

A true submariner not a sidearm guy? Interesting. Even a soft-throwing sidearm specialist like Javier Lopez sits mid 80's and can get into high 80's.

Anyway, you've gotten some good advice here.  I think if your kid wants to play above the D3 level he'll have to do what any pitcher who doesn't light up the radar gun would have to do -- go to Juco and prove he can pitch at the next level.  There's a relatively soft-throwing kid from our town who was average at best in HS and got zero D1 interest, then went to Juco and became a league and state MVP.  Right now he's juggling so many D1 offers it's silly.

Darren o day is one of the best relievers in MLB with a submarine throw but he reaches mid to upper 80s with his fb.

if you watch his arm slot it is basically side arm but he extremely tilts his body forward/tilts the back shoulder down so that the arm angle gets low. That might help for more power too.

https://youtu.be/8_MTAuxa1PM

My son's ACC team had a legit submariner, scrapped his hand on the ground.  He was a JC transfer and was spotted in a summer college league on the east coast.  He also played in a very good JC league in SoCal.  He could hit 82-83 with his fastball.  Going full submarine gave the ball better up and down movement. Seemed like every team in the ACC had a low slot guy. 

2015 RHP son always threw from a 3/4-slot with good, but not off the charts velocity that generated a lot of movement.  Entering his HS sophomore year, he decided on his own to go to a submarine approach and has stuck with it going forward.   He played summer ball for two years with a quite competitive East Coast-based travel organization and generated solid  interest from D1 programs.  He was used a little differently than other pitchers in his program, as he typically was the first person out of the bullpen when things got dicey in tournaments.  Being a submariner might have "hurt"  him in some ways, but it also opened a number of doors when programs were looking for someone who already possessed a set of submarine mechanics that were effective.  His size probably also helped in some ways ( 6' 4" , 225). His eventual school found him at a showcase he happened to attend before the start of his senior year. He was the starting pitcher in that showcase did well enough that he actually had an offer before he left the ballpark that night.

  He currently sits in the 82-86 range and  just finished his freshman year with 19 appearances having  held his own in a solid D1 conference. He also is comfortable with being a reliever, which in some ways takes a different mindset.  He tells me that he likes having multiple opportunities to pitch and have an impact on more than one game a week.

Hope this is helpful.

HPtx; every Japanese HS team has a true submarine pitcher, LHP and RHP. When our American team toured Japan, the Japanese submariners would neutralize our hitters.

Bobhttp://goodwillseries.org/

My son converted to sidearm/sub midway thru JUCO (soph) Fall season.  It was his choice and coaches came around to the idea after a couple of bullpens and prodding by catchers.  My son realized that 86-88 mph RHP are a dime a dozen and he needed something that would be unique to move him to D1 or strong D2 (he turned down a good NAIA scholarship...ugh). He did a sidearm camp at Miss State just prior to the season starting and received positive feedback from Chad Bradford and that was enough to tell him he was on the right track.  So, he knew it was do or die at that point.  It really took that whole JUCO season to adjust, and they used him as a starter and a reliever that season.  He was being followed, but offers were not pouring in.  

I agree with PGStaff, skip the showcases and focus on tournaments.  Coaches need to see a sidearm/sub cause ugly swings against good hitters.  In addition, send video to coaches that carry sidearm guys on their rosters....and, that isn't as easy as it sounds.  It's not like they put "RHP-sidearm" on the roster.  I noticed a few sidearm guys in the D2 regionals and CWS,  and one team had multiple sidewinders.  There are coaches out there looking for the right fit and it appears that acceptance of having something unique in the pen is going up.  

D1's and D2's generally want to see at least low-mid 80's for strikes (movement is a given). My son currently pitches for a team that made it to the D2 CWS and it was great to see that his choice worked out for him.  I never imagined that I would see him pitching in the D2 CWS, let alone in the championship game.  Point being, sidearm/subs can find a place in a program at many levels, if they find the right fit.  Finding that fit, however, can be a long and frustrating process.  My son did not sign with his D2 until June 2015.

Lastly, don't be discouraged during the process!  Not a ton of coaches will show interest, but it only takes one.    My son was aware that his current coach liked a sidearmer on his staff and it just so happened that his was graduating.  My son sent the coach some video and it went from there. And, his coach has mentioned multiple times how grateful he is that my son sent that video.  He is very blessed to be where he is today. 

Best of luck and keep us posted.

A mid-70s submariner who can actually pitch (that will be key, of course, at that velocity) can absolutely find a place to play. Higher academics will help, since DIIIs should be a big part of the target market.  At the academic showcase my son attended last year, the couple of really low 3/4 and sidearm guys were of immediate interest to several coaches.

Son has a teammate who's a 5'7" RHP and throws, if not actual submarine, really low sidearm with tilt. Probably peaks around 75, but FB sits much more like 70. Has significant movement on the FB and off-speed and solid control and he typically gets great results as a reliever coming in behind someone throwing in the 80s. He's going to a JC and had some other options.

My son is a submariner (lefty). Does not throw hard (77-78) but good movement. Did some showcases last summer in Mass as a Jr...not many 2 and gathered plenty of D3 interest. He will be pitching at SJC in Maine next year ( great D3 program in NE).  Remember if you you don't throw hard gotta be different.

Ok....a lot of good advice here.  Thank you.  FWIW, after this past summer, my 2017 now has a good amount of JUCO and D3 interest.  Some from showcases and some from tournaments.  It was disheartening for him to be graded a "6" in a PG Showcase, only to make an "All Tournament Team" at a PG Lakepoint tournament the next weekend.  The low grade was definitely because his submarine FB is slow, compared to regular-slotted arms.  He showed equally well at both events, striking out many batters.  PG doesn't yet recognize submariners as an effective off-speed-only pitching skillset, so yes, I wish we had not gone to that showcase.  I'm wondering as well, as to whether that grade was a determining factor for some college coaches to not pursue him further. 

In any event, his summer concluded with about 25 relief innings and an ERA of well-under a 1.00.  That was against some good talent, including plenty of D1 commits.  He was more than pleased and is working hard to start off the "off-season," with a couple of scouting opportunities to go in August.  As an uncommitted, incoming senior, I'm sure he will find a place on someone's roster, when all the jockeying concludes for the 2017 commits.    

Focus on DIII. DIII programs are always looking for a submarine pitcher who they can develop over time without roster limits. They can work on mechanics and velocity development and I have seen kids emerge in their Jr and Sr years after not getting much time on the field in Fr and Soph years. 

My son is a sidearm guy not really a submarine guy. He has been a closer most of his HS and brief college career. We found going to PG events was not worthwhile as PG has no classification for low slot kids and the data they report is misleading.  His summer coach would occasionally let him start a tournament game to get him some exposure but I think coaches didn't buy into the sidearm starter. We found emails and voicemail asking if coaches were interested in a low slot guy was best first step then attending specific school camps were most productive.

Look for college coaches who has that sort of pitcher on their roster. I know that Butch Thompson (@ Auburn now) likes them and even put on a "submarine camp" every year while he was at Mississippi State. I am sure there are others.  Now, that's not to say that a coach wants to load up his pitching staff with sidearmers/submariners but I would imagine each coach wouldn't mind having an effective one.

Caveat: trying to project pre-college statistics against actually college hitters may be difficult.