Dodgers Triple Play

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Here's the video.. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play....55&topic_id=11493214


What is the home plate umpire signaling initially? Hands up=foul ball, right?

First, hands-up means "time."

However, I believe that INITIALLY he is backing up to get out of the way and raised his hands in an involuntary gesture as I have done many times officiating basketball when the ball heads for me. They aren't as high as he raises them for "time". I have seen many people act in the same manner. After that initial move however, I have questions. It appears he made a second hands up move prior to pointing fair.

Right now, only Dale knows for sure.

I agree with all of that. First he was just trying to get out of the way, then maybe he signaled foul, then he signaled fair.

My question: Is there any reason to make this call so quickly? Even if the defense fielded the ball and made any kind of play, the umpire could still, several seconds later, say, No, it was a foul ball.

Nothing would be harmed by letting it play out for a few seconds, right?

And, the base runners should have run. Fair or foul, the ball was on the ground, get going. Worst thing that could happen then is they'd go back to their base on a foul ball.

From just watching the video, it does look like he gives the signal for foul, then points fair. But I also think this video serves as a teaching tool for coaches to show their players, that you play it out until you are told otherwise. In this clip, the Dodgers did that, the Padres didn't.

I still think that the umpire gave confusing signals at the least, and very well could of been wrong (since once you kill it, even if you are wrong, you cannot unring that bell) and umpires can learn what not to do when clearing the catcher from this video. So all in all, we have a very educational video for everyone.

quote:

But I also think this video serves as a teaching tool for coaches to show their players, that you play it out until you are told otherwise. In this clip, the Dodgers did that, the Padres didn't.

So even if an umpire raises his hands, the players should keep going? That is what the Padres were arguing.. the umpire put his hands up as if to say "foul" or "dead ball" or whatever. Whether he meant to do it or not is irrelevant..

I am not saying the reaction wasn't unheard of, but this is another video to show players that they should always play it out, they can always be put back.

The Padres had an understandable reaction, but why they are not running anyway is beyond me.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:


Right now, only Dale knows for sure.

Yup. But he will be kicking himself for the mechanic for a while. Regardless of what he was thinking, he appeared to signal time, then fair.

It happens to the best umpires, and Dale is certainly one of them.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Here's the video.. http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play....55&topic_id=11493214


What is the home plate umpire signaling initially? Hands up=foul ball, right?

First, hands-up means "time."

However, I believe that INITIALLY he is backing up to get out of the way and raised his hands in an involuntary gesture as I have done many times officiating basketball when the ball heads for me. They aren't as high as he raises them for "time". I have seen many people act in the same manner. After that initial move however, I have questions. It appears he made a second hands up move prior to pointing fair.

Right now, only Dale knows for sure.

Since this is a HS site, the take away for baserunning instruction is, "as soon as the ball hits the dirt, you run like a frieghtened idiot until somebody tells you to stop"

quote:

Originally posted by cyclonehokiece:
From just watching the video, it does look like he gives the signal for foul, then points fair. But I

He never "signals" foul. The hands-up signal if for time. If there is a foul that is followed with a verbal "Foul" or a point to foul territory. Scott does neither. One can argue he signaled "time" and debate over what he was thinking. But he did not signal "foul".

From MLB:

"After review and discussion with the umpire, we have determined that the call itself of a fair ball was correct. However, while making the call, there was an incorrect mechanic, which appeared to confuse San Diego's base runners. At no time did the umpire verbally kill the play on the field. After reviewing the entire situation following the game, the umpire realizes his hands were in an exaggerated upward appearance similar to a call that would indicate a dead ball. While we all agree that it was a fair ball that did not hit the batter, the umpire recognizes that the proper mechanic was not executed as he tried to avoid the catcher."

I read somewhere in BB lore, that umpires signals are the call.. story goes; the signals were adopted to accomdate a player with a hearing disability and that the hand signals are gospel, period.
I agree with that.

There's also a good umpire story about a famous base stealer sliding in clearly ahead of a tag, the umpire signals OUT and cleary to F4, F6 and the BR calls safe.. As he double punches the out signal, the BR say's "but you called me safe."
ump say's "yeah but 60,000 people saw me call ya out.. sorry you're out...

This play;
Shame, this would have been a great one to get right..
He came pretty dang close, I agree totally; he didn't mean too.

I replayed it a dozen times, hoping he'd not do it again!!
I saw both hands raised, after he recoverd from the initial dodge. I give him that much.. but he clearly brought em back up..

I think the Pad's got hosed and maybe this shoulda been corrected, I don't think you get a T play there..

I'll watch it again tomorrow, did anybody notice what the other umpires did?

So, if you were coach, any options?

Can one protest a misapplication of:

9.02
(b) If there is reasonable doubt that any umpire’s decision may be in conflict with the rules, the manager may appeal the decision and ask that a correct ruling be made.

Mr. Umpire sir, you signaled foul killing the play. You then put the ball back in play. I believe the proper decision would be to award any outs or bases you feel would correct your error. If you stand with this decision I am officially protesting that decision.

All I can say is "Thank God it wasn't me". I have made those same hand moves trying to get away from catcher... He probably did not even see the ball hit the bat. His Base Umps failed to assist him and it turned out to be a crazy event. He did finally point the ball fair but the runners were trapped by his hand movement. My heart goes out to him as he probably hasn't slept since.

I would never eject a Coach when i made a move like that. i would just eat the dirt and move on.

He certainly looked like he signaled time the second time. What would have been nice is if one the BUs had bailed him out by saying they killed it when they saw his movement. It would have been fixed, the triple play goes away and everybody is good.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
He certainly looked like he signaled time the second time. What would have been nice is if one the BUs had bailed him out by saying they killed it when they saw his movement. It would have been fixed, the triple play goes away and everybody is good.

Except at that level, the Dodgers manager would probably have been ejected if the ball was called foul. This is one where someone is going to go at the MLB level. While I also would of liked to see the ball called foul (since an umpire's action caused the runners to react and put them in jeopardy), Donnie Baseball would of come out and asked why the plate umpire pointed fair then, and would of probably gone on until he got tossed.

Pointing fair would be irrelevant if one of the BUs had "interpreted" the hands as time and echoed it. Once he echoed it the ball has to be dead. It may have still caused an ejection but stuff happens.