Infield08,
Would your son have a chance at starting if he wouldn't have revamped his swing and became a better hitter? Assuming that his defense was superior to his competition and still is superior to the competition?
Doughnutman, that's hard to say. It would be up to my son's college coaches to decide that.
I will say that in high school, his coach valued his fielding abilities more than the hitting power of the player who backed him up.
I will say that in high school, his coach valued his fielding abilities more than the hitting power of the player who backed him up.
Infield08,
I'll bet when they signed him they thought,"Kid is a great defender and a great athlete. We can teach him to hit because he has the ability. Definite potential. Sign him up!"
I'll bet when they signed him they thought,"Kid is a great defender and a great athlete. We can teach him to hit because he has the ability. Definite potential. Sign him up!"
I have not seen this thread until now. I agree with Coach May and PG.
Fielding is very important. Fielding and pitching go hand and hand. Without pitching, you cannot win in baseball. Also, fielding allows the smaller guys a chance in this game or otherwise all the players would start to look like the NBA or the NFL.
I think of Chuck Knobloch. I believe his career went down hill after he could no longer play second base.
Omar Visquel was the best ss I have ever seen and I believe one of the best baseball players I have seen. He made himself into a fine offensive player. When the Giants were in Cleveland this past summer, the fans gave him a 5 minute standing ovation when he came to the plate. A huge fan-favorite in this town. I cannot tell you how many BIG games Omar won with his fielding alone. Cannot tell you how many rallies he started with his timely hitting. His attitude was one of the best of all time. Everyone, including the fans loved being around the guy. I pray he is a first ballot hall of famer
Ask any pitcher's parent if fielding is important when their kid pitches. I'll bet I know what the answer is
Fielding is very important. Fielding and pitching go hand and hand. Without pitching, you cannot win in baseball. Also, fielding allows the smaller guys a chance in this game or otherwise all the players would start to look like the NBA or the NFL.
I think of Chuck Knobloch. I believe his career went down hill after he could no longer play second base.
Omar Visquel was the best ss I have ever seen and I believe one of the best baseball players I have seen. He made himself into a fine offensive player. When the Giants were in Cleveland this past summer, the fans gave him a 5 minute standing ovation when he came to the plate. A huge fan-favorite in this town. I cannot tell you how many BIG games Omar won with his fielding alone. Cannot tell you how many rallies he started with his timely hitting. His attitude was one of the best of all time. Everyone, including the fans loved being around the guy. I pray he is a first ballot hall of famer
Ask any pitcher's parent if fielding is important when their kid pitches. I'll bet I know what the answer is
Defense is important. But regardless of your defensive prowess, is a player going to move from Fr to JV to Varsity in HS or HS to college, or college to the pro ranks if he hasn't shown an ability to hit at the level he is currently at? Don't you need to show that you can rake at the level you are at to move up? Besides the Omar Vizquel(don't ask him about his painting unless you want to spend an hour nodding your head) or Ozzie Smiths of the world who are exceptional and HOF'ers due to their defense?
I always thought that players advanced based on their ability to hit. MLB'ers get to stay being a MLB'er when they get called up if they show the ability or potential to hit big league pitching. If they can't hit, they are gone regardless of their defense.
Is this assumption incorrect?
I always thought that players advanced based on their ability to hit. MLB'ers get to stay being a MLB'er when they get called up if they show the ability or potential to hit big league pitching. If they can't hit, they are gone regardless of their defense.
Is this assumption incorrect?
DM - I know what you are getting at but you are going way too far with your point imho...
The best baseball players are the ones who advance to the next levels and that is determined by five tools not just hitting. Obviously, depending on position, some tools are more important than others.
A .400 hitter is never going to play SS, 2b, 3b, CF, or Catcher if they cannot field those positions at a VERY high level. Yes they also need to hit but that is only one of five tools. Using your logic, the Rod Sox ought to run David Ortiz out there at shortstop or put Manny Ramirez in centerfield. Why don't they do that? Why do they play lighter hitting players like CoCo Crisp in centerfield or Jed Lowrie at SS? Clearly, there is a trade-off between power and speed/agility to be a good fielder.
I have heard the expression that if you can hit they'll find a place for you but after awhile, a player will start running out of positions to get themselves in the lineup. If all one can do is DH, they have eliminated 1/2 of all big league clubs from being their employer. I would never advise a young player to limit themselves that way. Look up Knoblauch's stats. He still had decent numbers at the end of his career but he did not have the power numbers to play a corner outfield spot. There may have been injuries involved as well that I am unaware of.
The best baseball players are the ones who advance to the next levels and that is determined by five tools not just hitting. Obviously, depending on position, some tools are more important than others.
A .400 hitter is never going to play SS, 2b, 3b, CF, or Catcher if they cannot field those positions at a VERY high level. Yes they also need to hit but that is only one of five tools. Using your logic, the Rod Sox ought to run David Ortiz out there at shortstop or put Manny Ramirez in centerfield. Why don't they do that? Why do they play lighter hitting players like CoCo Crisp in centerfield or Jed Lowrie at SS? Clearly, there is a trade-off between power and speed/agility to be a good fielder.
I have heard the expression that if you can hit they'll find a place for you but after awhile, a player will start running out of positions to get themselves in the lineup. If all one can do is DH, they have eliminated 1/2 of all big league clubs from being their employer. I would never advise a young player to limit themselves that way. Look up Knoblauch's stats. He still had decent numbers at the end of his career but he did not have the power numbers to play a corner outfield spot. There may have been injuries involved as well that I am unaware of.
My son recently played with a nationally recognized program. This was a U13 team and fielding certainly mattered.
When we played defense more than one team would just shake their head with the opposing coach asking just how in the world do we hit it by them. There is not a pitcher around who would not want to pitch for this team.
All of that being said, all of the kids could still hit! Some for power, some for average, and some for both.
I am sure that even Ozzie Smith and Omar Vizquel could hit when they were younger to some extent. You cannot have a great glove and be basically helpless with a bat and hope to keep playing. Especially the older you get.
Based on what I have seen, if you just cannot hit for average or power you will likely be on the outside looking in regardless of the prowess with the glove.
My advice for any boy with a dream is learn to play the game the right way. Take the extra base, lay down the bunt in a critical situation, take that inside pitch the other way and punch it through for a base hit on a hit and run. Run out the pops ups and ground balls to the pitcher. Along the way you will have to be able to hit unless you are a pitcher.
Hitting a baseball is the hardest thing in all of sports. That is why hitting is at such a high premium. You can overcome errors and a lead with great hitting. No amount of great defense will put runs on the scoreboard just keep runs off the board for the other team.
Just my 2 cents.
Great discussion!
Bill
When we played defense more than one team would just shake their head with the opposing coach asking just how in the world do we hit it by them. There is not a pitcher around who would not want to pitch for this team.
All of that being said, all of the kids could still hit! Some for power, some for average, and some for both.
I am sure that even Ozzie Smith and Omar Vizquel could hit when they were younger to some extent. You cannot have a great glove and be basically helpless with a bat and hope to keep playing. Especially the older you get.
Based on what I have seen, if you just cannot hit for average or power you will likely be on the outside looking in regardless of the prowess with the glove.
My advice for any boy with a dream is learn to play the game the right way. Take the extra base, lay down the bunt in a critical situation, take that inside pitch the other way and punch it through for a base hit on a hit and run. Run out the pops ups and ground balls to the pitcher. Along the way you will have to be able to hit unless you are a pitcher.
Hitting a baseball is the hardest thing in all of sports. That is why hitting is at such a high premium. You can overcome errors and a lead with great hitting. No amount of great defense will put runs on the scoreboard just keep runs off the board for the other team.
Just my 2 cents.
Great discussion!
Bill
quote:Originally posted by Doughnutman:
...Don't you need to show that you can rake at the level you are at to move up?...
I don't get the whole "rake" metaphor as it relates to hitting. Seems more suitable for describing a good fielder.
"Attica!, Attica!"
Cleveland Dad,
Don't you think the Red Sox would trade CoCo for Grady Sizemore or Chris Young and Lawrie for Hanley Ramirez in a heart beat? I know that good hitting doesn't mean you can play defense. But a good bat gets you on the field. A slugging SS will replace a defensive specialist every time. Isn't Boston getting rid of Varitek? Tell me who works the pitchers and umpires better than he does. For all the things that he does for the staff and defense, his leadership in and out of the clubhouse, he is still gone because of his hitting.
Don't you think the Red Sox would trade CoCo for Grady Sizemore or Chris Young and Lawrie for Hanley Ramirez in a heart beat? I know that good hitting doesn't mean you can play defense. But a good bat gets you on the field. A slugging SS will replace a defensive specialist every time. Isn't Boston getting rid of Varitek? Tell me who works the pitchers and umpires better than he does. For all the things that he does for the staff and defense, his leadership in and out of the clubhouse, he is still gone because of his hitting.
Wragg arm,
Most phrases in baseball are pretty weak.
Hitting ropes, have anyone actually hit a rope? It just kind of wiggles.
Hit a bomb, all I can picture is the Bugs Bunny cartoon where he tests bombs. Not good.
Line drive, well that just doesn't make sense. How can a two dimensional object such as a line ever drive a three dimensinal car?
Hit a rocket, see Bugs Bunny reference.
Moon shot, Good in Tennessee but no where else.
He killed it, not good anywhere unless you are hunting.
None of it makes sense. We need better sayings.
Most phrases in baseball are pretty weak.
Hitting ropes, have anyone actually hit a rope? It just kind of wiggles.
Hit a bomb, all I can picture is the Bugs Bunny cartoon where he tests bombs. Not good.
Line drive, well that just doesn't make sense. How can a two dimensional object such as a line ever drive a three dimensinal car?
Hit a rocket, see Bugs Bunny reference.
Moon shot, Good in Tennessee but no where else.
He killed it, not good anywhere unless you are hunting.
None of it makes sense. We need better sayings.
quote:For all the things that he does for the staff and defense, his leadership in and out of the clubhouse, he is still gone because of his hitting.
Completely agree. He would have been gone five years ago if could not catch however. These are not mutually exclusive skills. There is a point where good hitting will not save a poor fielder and good fielding will not make up for poor hitting.
The most misleading thing about this thread is that it implies that non-pitchers should basically worry about hitting. I cannot disagree more. The best strategy for a young ballplayer is to learn how to throw and field in addition to hitting. It will give them MANY more options to PLAY. The one tool guys are very limited. The first base position is one of the most competitive hitting positions in college and the pros. If all a player can do is play there, they better be able to hit them a long ways and often or they just might have to rely on raking the leaves next fall.
quote:You can overcome errors and a lead with great hitting. No amount of great defense will put runs on the scoreboard just keep runs off the board for the other team.
Do you think the Red Sox fans felt this way when they saw the ball go through Bill Buckner's legs in 1986? Late in the game, on the road, you cannot overcome an error as the game will be over.
Again, the same aguments being made here for hitting can be made for defense. Both are important. The best teams seem to find a balance between the two commodities.
quote:A .400 hitter is never going to play SS, 2b, 3b, CF, or Catcher if they cannot field those positions at a VERY high level. Yes they also need to hit but that is only one of five tools. Using your logic, the Rod Sox ought to run David Ortiz out there at shortstop or put Manny Ramirez in centerfield. Why don't they do that? Why do they play lighter hitting players like CoCo Crisp in centerfield or Jed Lowrie at SS? Clearly, there is a trade-off between power and speed/agility to be a good fielder.
ClevelandDad, Very good points, however, Manny is now with the Dodgers.
Cleveland Dad,
I do agree you have to have a certain amount of ability at defense to play and all players should strive to be the best they can at every aspect of the game. But Buckner got his spot due to hitting. The coaches knew he was limited on defense but they still played him. Both are important, but offense dominates defense when it comes to playing time.
I hate to go back to Varitek but it really bugs me and I am not a Red Sox fan, just a Varitek fan. There is a reason that Boston got those no hitters. There is a reason that the young pitchers reached their potential real fast. His defensive ability, ability to call games and leadership won plenty of games for Boston yet he still was cut over what? 20-40 points on his average? In my opinion, they will lose more games next year due to the fact that he isn't behind the plate even if they bring up/sign a catcher who hits 300.
Just more proof to me that offense is the most important aspect.
I do agree you have to have a certain amount of ability at defense to play and all players should strive to be the best they can at every aspect of the game. But Buckner got his spot due to hitting. The coaches knew he was limited on defense but they still played him. Both are important, but offense dominates defense when it comes to playing time.
I hate to go back to Varitek but it really bugs me and I am not a Red Sox fan, just a Varitek fan. There is a reason that Boston got those no hitters. There is a reason that the young pitchers reached their potential real fast. His defensive ability, ability to call games and leadership won plenty of games for Boston yet he still was cut over what? 20-40 points on his average? In my opinion, they will lose more games next year due to the fact that he isn't behind the plate even if they bring up/sign a catcher who hits 300.
Just more proof to me that offense is the most important aspect.
Varitek was not cut..he is a free agent. The sox have reportedly "offered" him a one year deal to allow him to improve on his poor numbers from last year. As a sox fan I value his ability behind the plate, but this past year he was just short of an automatic out! He killed more rallies by hitting into double plays or forcing runners etc. If he came up with runners in scoring position and less then 2 outs we'd almost pray for a strikeout so he didn't kill the inning! At his age his offense is clouding his defensive ability. As far as his handling of pitchers he is still near the top of his game but his arm has weakened as he rarely throws out any runners any more, plus he had quite a few passed balls this past season. I DO think his divorce had an affect on his play during the season. I hope he signs a 1 or two year deal with the Sox and that the sox find a young catcher for Tek to mentor and take some of the load off, 130+ games is just too many at his age. But to do so they will have let Wakefield go (which would make me happy...)he is holding up two spots for younger players..a spot in the rotation as well as the backup catcher spot as that person needs to be able to catch the knuckle ball.
quote:Originally posted by redsox8191:
Varitek was not cut..he is a free agent. The sox have reportedly "offered" him a one year deal to allow him to improve on his poor numbers from last year. As a sox fan I value his ability behind the plate, but this past year he was just short of an automatic out! He killed more rallies by hitting into double plays or forcing runners etc. If he came up with runners in scoring position and less then 2 outs we'd almost pray for a strikeout so he didn't kill the inning! At his age his offense is clouding his defensive ability. As far as his handling of pitchers he is still near the top of his game but his arm has weakened as he rarely throws out any runners any more, plus he had quite a few passed balls this past season. I DO think his divorce had an affect on his play during the season. I hope he signs a 1 or two year deal with the Sox and that the sox find a young catcher for Tek to mentor and take some of the load off, 130+ games is just too many at his age. But to do so they will have let Wakefield go (which would make me happy...)he is holding up two spots for younger players..a spot in the rotation as well as the backup catcher spot as that person needs to be able to catch the knuckle ball.
Very well said, and having to grt off the JUICE, could not have helped his numbers either. Look at all the catchers in the league, numbers went down as the season wore on for the over worked guys, no juice. I LOVE IT!!!!
I still think a catchers defensive ability carries more weight than it does at any other position, less maybe shortstop and that too is debatable. You get a good defensive catcher that can hit well, not alot of those guys running around, some but not many.