This has turned into a great thread. Totally agree with FO and the luck factor.
I honestly don't believe Swampboy and Dad04 are saying different things. We can create a scenario in each case where the kid who reached for the sky made the right decision and the kid who went where he felt the most love made the right decision.
If a kid feels he is a D1 player and all he is offered is a walk-on to prove that point, then it is up to the kid and his family to move forward.
One kid will be told "We are offering you a chance to make our team and compete for a starting position." Another kid will be told "We see you as an immediate impact player" followed by a generous offer backing up that statement. Can the low scholarship guy make it? Of course. The risk is enormous however. The guy getting the money is going to get the first crack at it however. Just how life works. If a kid is willing to reach and willing to live with the consequences which can sometimes mean sitting the bench for years until "luck" breaks his way, then I say go for it.
I don't believe a kid is selling himself short however if he goes where a coach has shown the most love and adores his talent. In that situation, the kid may get the best development opportuntiy even if the talent around him is not quite the same. The coach may simply believe so much in that player that he'll do everything in his power to make it so.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I don't believe a kid is selling himself short however if he goes where a coach has shown the most love and adores his talent. In that situation, the kid may get the best development opportuntiy even if the talent around him is not quite the same. The coach may simply believe so much in that player that he'll do everything in his power to make it so.
Good stuff.
I actually beleive they are saying almost the same thing too.
I agree with FO, you really don't have any idea if your choice was right until you look back in the rear view mirror.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Swampboy,
I know of a situation where a HC invites players each year to try out in the fall. The program always has much more than 35 allowed on a D1 roster each fall. It's a state school with state tuition so if the player has grades that qualify, then they have paid tuition. Many of these players have family that have attended, and they grew up wanting to wear that schools uniform and be a part of the program, which is ranked among the top 5 in the country.
In some cases, many of these players have opportunities at smaller successful D1 programs with scholarships. Most if not all are cut, they leave to attend JUCO, their only option late fall.
IMO, these players were never really wanted, they provide the players that will make the roster opportunities to be more competitive, thinking that they may not make the team. This is how this coach does his business, I am not for or against this but just giving you a scenerio of what takes place.
So, in your opinion, is it ok to walk on and most likely not make the team or should they have gone to a program where the coach actually recruited him seriously and offered to pay for his tuition, for one year at least.
TPM,
I was never talking about walk-ons at all. I only go so far as to endorse boldness, not recklessness. I was talking about choosing a small scholarship at a major conference school over a large scholarship at a mid-level D1. I looked at the roster for my son's school: the number of 2011 players minus the seniors and the juniors who went pro plus the publicly announced incoming signees is already more than 35. Anybody who walks on in these circumstances needs to know his chance of even getting evaluated is approximately zero. If you have enough game to succeed in those circumstances, you should already have a scholarship somewhere.
Great thread. Very good reading. Great points by all. I will have some things to say on this. But its going to be a year or two before I am ready. Until then, Swampboy your son is going to be just fine. And Dad04 your just stating what you know and speaking from very good experiences. There is no way my son would have ever signed with the school he is at out of HS. No way. And if he was back in HS and getting ready to make a college choice. There is no way he would sign with anyone else. I will stop there and let you guys take care of this thread. For now. lol
Ok, getting closer, you feel that we think that getting a larger scholarship means that you are more wanted?
That is why I brought up that scenerio. You were getting confusing.
I don't necessarily think that more money means more love, you can be real wanted but the coach has no money to give. IVY LEAGUE, D3. There are plenty of players I know of who didn't get anything, for all different reasons but they truely felt that they would make an impact at where they would attend, plus get their degree. I guess that would mean that you and I are somewhat saying the same thing.
That is why I brought up that scenerio. You were getting confusing.
I don't necessarily think that more money means more love, you can be real wanted but the coach has no money to give. IVY LEAGUE, D3. There are plenty of players I know of who didn't get anything, for all different reasons but they truely felt that they would make an impact at where they would attend, plus get their degree. I guess that would mean that you and I are somewhat saying the same thing.
quote:I looked at the roster for my son's school: the number of 2011 players minus the seniors and the juniors who went pro plus the publicly announced incoming signees is already more than 35.
Ding, Ding, Ding!
Some of them won't make the cut.
Some freshman get cut.
Some sophomores get cut.
Some juniors get cut.
Some seniors get cut.
Some don't ever make it to campus, some can't stay on campus.
There's a whole slew of famous factors that go far beyond baseball that will eliminate many players .
With the change to a minimum 25% scholarship, I'm not sure the love=the money theory is that applicable anymore.
With everyone getting a minimum 25% not as many getting 100% (there never were very many, except a pitcher, or two) anymore.
When some were getting 10%, or just books, and others getting 90%, then the argument was stronger.
I have also recently noticed that several major D1 schools that I follow are now announcing just SIX or so, signees, as opposed to 10-15 a few years ago.
That was not a scientific survey, just a brief observation.
With school starting just around the corner, here is something for incoming freshman to work on, and, the first hurdle he'll face.
Run your *** off before you get there............
That's what your son should be focusing on.
I guess my whole philosophy comes down to three main points for my son. Like Dad04, I am paying the bills here for this. While Dad04's son seems to be the ideal player as far as college goes we all know that not all kids, especially at 17 and 18, are all that mature.
I have told my son that I have three criteria before I will put my hard earned money toward his long term education. I want these things accomplished and I am happy to toss down what is needed to help him accomplish it.
1. Will he get a good education there and will he continue to be intellectually challenged there.
2. The baseball program there, if he chooses to play baseball at all, has to be one that will allow him to both play and compete at the best of his ability.
3. Does the school help the athlete out to acheive the first two goals? Will he get the help he needs if he has trouble with goal one or goal two?
I want my son to succeed as both a student and as an athlete. I spend time and money to help him achieve both and am happy to do so. I also remember what it was like going to college, especially as a young 18 year old. I think I spent my first two years of college majoring in beer drinking, pot smoking and skirt chasing and ended up with a whopping 2.1 gpa after my first two years.
I also ended up joining the Army at 19 so I could get out from the bills because my father got so ticked off at me that he decided to not fund my idiotic lifestyle. I didn't have the extra pressure of high level athletics at the same time.
I wised up after four years of being a private in the Army. I am also lucky, my son is both smarter and more mature that I ever was at his age. But I also know that college is a whole new life and I want to make sure that he is going to get help if he needs it. I can't and shouldn't be there to help him at that point.
I have told my son that I have three criteria before I will put my hard earned money toward his long term education. I want these things accomplished and I am happy to toss down what is needed to help him accomplish it.
1. Will he get a good education there and will he continue to be intellectually challenged there.
2. The baseball program there, if he chooses to play baseball at all, has to be one that will allow him to both play and compete at the best of his ability.
3. Does the school help the athlete out to acheive the first two goals? Will he get the help he needs if he has trouble with goal one or goal two?
I want my son to succeed as both a student and as an athlete. I spend time and money to help him achieve both and am happy to do so. I also remember what it was like going to college, especially as a young 18 year old. I think I spent my first two years of college majoring in beer drinking, pot smoking and skirt chasing and ended up with a whopping 2.1 gpa after my first two years.
I also ended up joining the Army at 19 so I could get out from the bills because my father got so ticked off at me that he decided to not fund my idiotic lifestyle. I didn't have the extra pressure of high level athletics at the same time.
I wised up after four years of being a private in the Army. I am also lucky, my son is both smarter and more mature that I ever was at his age. But I also know that college is a whole new life and I want to make sure that he is going to get help if he needs it. I can't and shouldn't be there to help him at that point.
I would think a larger scholarship is going to warrant more opportunities to prove you can't play versus a walk on or even a 25% player to prove you can. Big difference. Similiar to the 1st rounder for signs for $1 million he will get 4 to 5 years to prove he can't play as upper management has to justify the larger investment and give plenty of time in hopes what they thought they saw when player was drafted will come true versus the 35th rounder who signs for $5,000 who gets one year to prove he can play.
quote:I think I spent my first two years of college majoring in beer drinking, pot smoking and skirt chasing and ended up with a whopping 2.1 gpa after my first two years.
All on that list.
FO,
Mark B, there's a slight difference there in your analogy of the pros versus college.
In the pros you might have 4-5 years to prove yourself.
Your college freshman will have about 30 days during fall workouts to prove himself.
If you don't hit in the top 9 on the roster in college, you won't play.
If you are not in the top five-seven pitchers on the roster, you won't pitch.
The size of your scholarship won't matter, it was a one year commitment that's a sunk cost. It won't be renewed next year if you don't perform, or show potential to perform.
Check your school's last year stats page and see how many out of the 35 played, especially the freshman.
In the pros you might have 4-5 years to prove yourself.
Your college freshman will have about 30 days during fall workouts to prove himself.
If you don't hit in the top 9 on the roster in college, you won't play.
If you are not in the top five-seven pitchers on the roster, you won't pitch.
The size of your scholarship won't matter, it was a one year commitment that's a sunk cost. It won't be renewed next year if you don't perform, or show potential to perform.
Check your school's last year stats page and see how many out of the 35 played, especially the freshman.
I deleted my post, I can't top the above!
I don't count on even 25%.
TPM Wrote:
TPM - I am familiar with a program that is run like this, and it maybe the one that you are referring to. I have a real problem with the way this program is run and I think it shortchanges the kids who are chasing their dreams. I wish many more of them had more guidance and awareness of how they do things at this school before deciding to attend.
quote:
Swampboy,
I know of a situation where a HC invites players each year to try out in the fall. The program always has much more than 35 allowed on a D1 roster each fall. It's a state school with state tuition so if the player has grades that qualify, then they have paid tuition. Many of these players have family that have attended, and they grew up wanting to wear that schools uniform and be a part of the program, which is ranked among the top 5 in the country.
In some cases, many of these players have opportunities at smaller successful D1 programs with scholarships. Most if not all are cut, they leave to attend JUCO, their only option late fall.
IMO, these players were never really wanted, they provide the players that will make the roster opportunities to be more competitive, thinking that they may not make the team. This is how this coach does his business, I am not for or against this but just giving you a scenerio of what takes place.
So, in your opinion, is it ok to walk on and most likely not make the team or should they have gone to a program where the coach actually recruited him seriously and offered to pay for his tuition, for one year at least.
TPM - I am familiar with a program that is run like this, and it maybe the one that you are referring to. I have a real problem with the way this program is run and I think it shortchanges the kids who are chasing their dreams. I wish many more of them had more guidance and awareness of how they do things at this school before deciding to attend.
BillBill,
The program just won the CWS two years in a row, and actually it's no secret that Ray Tanner over recruits each fall. He doesn't make promises, just an opportunity to "try out". This is not the only program that does this but in general, most of the larger programs are pretty responsible and only recruit what is needed, sometimes an overflow happens when some are drafted or not drafted. Imagine getting to college and the first day of meetings 40-45 show up. What challenge is there for you at that point as a freshman without any commitment? How do you FEEL as a freshman (even with a scholarship), chances are you are NOT going to see much serious playing time for awhile, in fact chances are you are going to burn a year of eligibility.
I think that this is where the article picks up in does it matter where you go.
I don't get the value of coaches having more than 35 show up for fall, be honest with the kids, tell them chances are they are not going to make the roster and let them go where they are really needed, that is my opinion on being wanted vs not really wanted, regardless of scholarship offered.
JMO.
The program just won the CWS two years in a row, and actually it's no secret that Ray Tanner over recruits each fall. He doesn't make promises, just an opportunity to "try out". This is not the only program that does this but in general, most of the larger programs are pretty responsible and only recruit what is needed, sometimes an overflow happens when some are drafted or not drafted. Imagine getting to college and the first day of meetings 40-45 show up. What challenge is there for you at that point as a freshman without any commitment? How do you FEEL as a freshman (even with a scholarship), chances are you are NOT going to see much serious playing time for awhile, in fact chances are you are going to burn a year of eligibility.
I think that this is where the article picks up in does it matter where you go.
I don't get the value of coaches having more than 35 show up for fall, be honest with the kids, tell them chances are they are not going to make the roster and let them go where they are really needed, that is my opinion on being wanted vs not really wanted, regardless of scholarship offered.
JMO.
I HAVE FOUND THAT IF A PLAYER HAs ability and is a hard worker the luck will take care of itself
I agree, most players work really hard, however, if you are a low/mid D1 player trying to work hard on a championship D1 roster, it doesn't work. JMO.
Go to where your ability might get you a starting spot on the roster and you can handle the course load.
It's not fun struggling to keep up at any level.
Go to where your ability might get you a starting spot on the roster and you can handle the course load.
It's not fun struggling to keep up at any level.