Don’t change Little Johnny’s swing

SBK

Good hitters will hit good pitching--in fact they should thrive on it

Average hitters won't hit good pitching and in fact real good hitters have more problems with mediocre pitching than real good pitching

"Hitters" are "hitters" no matter what the pitching level

Coaching may have nothing to do with it-- you are a hitter or you arent--caoching only make good hitters better but it cannot take a .250 hitter and make him a .350 hitter

TR,

Couldn’t disagree with you more except maybe when you said increased strength doesn’t help hitting in a post a couple months ago.

Even the most fundamentally sound top hitters may not hit the top level pitching if they don’t see it on a regular basis. It’s not unusual for most all rookie hitters at all levels to go through an adjustment level and struggle. It happens to college freshman that now face pitching that even the worse pitchers may be better than the top pitchers they faced at the high school level. The same goes for players in the minors who not only have to face better pitching, but also now have to face it with wood. Some players who were considered good hitters at the previous level will now be eliminated while the players that are truly top hitters will soon come to the top. Many of the players that fail to hit at their new level have broke mechanics or lack enough bat speed.

When you say that “real good hitters have more problems with mediocre pitching”, I don’t accept it and if that is truly the case, I don’t believe they were truly a real good hitter. Does this same hitter do well in batting practice against even worse than mediocre pitching? Then why do you accept the excuse that they can’t hit mediocre pitching during games because it’s not tough enough for them? I say the problem is either a breakdown in mechanics, mental or both.

When you say, “Hitters" are Hitters no matter what the pitching level” you underscore exactly what my main point of my initial post is. It is possible and in fact highly probable that a hitter can be a “hitter” against high school pitching but not be able to hit high-level college pitching. The two likely causes like I mentioned earlier are either, their bat speed may be enough to catch up to high school pitching speed but not faster or their swing fundamentals do not allow them to get their hands through on better pitching or some similar fault.

So that brings up the point of my initial post that seemed to have received very little interest the first time around. I contend that one of the reasons that there are truly very few hitters that eventually will hit top level pitching is because of the lack of training and instruction they get at an age where it might do them some good.

One of the reasons I believe is that many people see a young kid hitting the ball well and automatically believe that nobody should even suggest that the kid might need to make some changes. It’s too bad because while they may be successful at the level they currently are, they eventually are going to find that their swing mechanics will eventually hold them back.

So TR, when you say coaching may have nothing to do with it, I believe that coaching may have a lot to do with it. The problem is that by the time someone who may really know what they are doing tries to work with the kid, his mechanics has been ingrained so much that the only way to really help him at this point might be to break both his arms and just have him start over.

Parents and coaches, if you really want to develop a player for the next level, you need to look ahead and not get hung up on how your son was the top hitter at the recently completed Little League or high school district games”.

When you are lucky enough to find someone or the right information to improve your swing for the next level, do not give into the temptation to say, “Don’t change Little Johnny’s swing; he’s hitting good”.

I believe that *good* hitters can become better hitters, with the proper instruction. If a kid has a good eye but poor mechanics, I believe I can help him improve his swing. That's my job as his coach.

Maybe its because my kids are 13/14, I think my job is to get them ready for highschool. We work on a good rotational swing, anticipating and looking for certain pitches, and being able to wait on an outside pitch and drive it, or turn on the inside pitch. We work on the mental aspect (know the pitcher's tendencies so we can anticipate the pitch) and the phsysical tools (torque and numbers drills).

I just wish I had more time...

We just started a session with three "select teams" in our community. It really went well. My staff received so many compliments from the parents that that first session was so much more than they had expected. THEN, as everyone is leaving, there is always that one parent(s). Why, we tried to change their kid's swing. I mentioned that the young man was turning out and opening up too soon. He can't hit the outside pitch and it is either feast or famine for him as a hitter. I mentioned that at this point, I'd call him a swinger not a hitter. Well, just so I know, this young man hits for a lot of power and they don't want that changed. It would be funny but this young man isn't even in high school yet. Naturally, I had to then turn into a grumpy old coach.

SBK, I have the attention span of a squirrel, so be patient. I think I understand what you are trying to say, however when I read it again, I think you missed your own point and please don't hesitate to tell me if I am wrong. Your point is..."Don't believe that success at one level begets success at the next level". If so, I think that is a very smart statement and it simply means "Don't rest on your laurels". Well shoot that isn't entirely bulblighting to me or anyone else who makes this game their passion.

If your message is that all hitters can hit at the top level with proper instruction, I am with TR on that. Let me say it my way, real folksy...somes have it and somes ain't. The ain'ts can be taught, drilled, cajolled, enticed and motivated by the best dang coaching on the planet (if you can get them to waste their valuable time) until the cows come home and at some point the hitter will reach his potential and that's it. If it weren't so, every college coach in America would quit recruiting out of area and set up a youth program in their own college town and train the first 40 that walk through the door at age 12.

I guess light hitting minor leaguer George Brett didn't need Charlie Lau???

Think........please think.

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Originally posted by Teacherman:
I guess light hitting minor leaguer George Brett didn't need Charlie Lau???

Think........please think.

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Since George Brett reached the big leagues to stay at age 20, I would not call him light hitting. He was in the big leagues when most guys his age are Sophs in College.

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Originally posted by Teacherman:
I guess light hitting minor leaguer George Brett didn't need Charlie Lau???

Think........please think.

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Teacherman, you might just as well have sent me to Timbuckto. You lost me with this one.

HalfMoon

I think you know what I’m getting at but allow me to try to do a better job of clarifying it.

I agree with your conclusion that most hitters that, even with the best instruction will not be able to “thrive” on top level pitching since there are a lot of other factors that the “haves” as you call them have, such as bat speed, hand eye coordination, mental advantages, etc.

But what I have observed is that many hitters have "absolute" faults in their swing that if corrected at a young enough age could allow them to at least advance as far as their talent would let them instead of only being able to advance until the pitching they face exposes their swing shortcomings.

Many hitters continue to reinforce technique that allow them to only have success against mediocre pitching and then they and their parents and coach wonder why they can’t even move top pitching. How many times have you seen a good, strong athlete in little league crush the ball by throwing their body into the ball with their big swing? They are having success so they are encouraged to not make any changes to their swing. Now when they get a little older, the pitcher starts changing speeds, direction and location, they struggle and eventually quit the game or become a typical high school hitter that never is able to hit top pitching very well.

My point is that even if a hitting instructor knows that the young kid should make some adjustments right now, many parents and coaches would not want anyone making changes to their kids swing because of the success they are having right now in their current level of ball.

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...You lost me with this one.

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You were lost long before that.

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Since George Brett reached the big leagues to stay at age 20, I would not call him light hitting. He was in the big leagues when most guys his age are Sophs in College.

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When did he meet Charlie Lau?

Why would you say that George Brett was a light hitting minor leaguer? He shot through the minor leagues in a flash. Lau was not his hitting coach in the minor leagues.

Teacherman, why don't you just explain to all of us ignorant folk George Brett's history?

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Originally posted by Teacherman:

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...You lost me with this one.

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You were lost long before that.

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Cut it out! The Blue Collar Comedy Tour is already booked!!! Then again, your killing me.

bbscout

We all seem to forget that Teacherman has one purpose here-- put everyone down- nobody else has any knowledge

Didn't Brett get to the majors without Lau ???
and then it was all refined and fine tuned--but it couls wll have been thatBrett would have hit as he did without LAU

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...but it could well have been thatBrett would have hit as he did without LAU

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I assume that's Connecticut for "it could have been". And it doesn't surprise me that you know what made Brett the hitter he was. See ball, hit ball, right?

Obviously you didn't see his HOF speech.

SEE his speech ??? I usually listen to speeches

By the way ---if you dont see it you cannot hit it !!!

Havent been on the board in a while.

Figured I would just stop by and see what was going on.

And lo and behold - we have the teacherman/rshard/etc..... still coughing up cyber hairballs. LOL

Cya later.

I saw George Brett's Hall of Fame speech, and in fact spoke with him about 20 minutes before he delivered it. Mainly, if I recall correctly, he spoke about his father, his brother and his teammates and the others who helped him greatly. It was a class speech from a first-class guy. For anyone who is truly intersted, the text of the speech can be found on the Hall of Fame website. It was a great day with most of the living Hall of Famers in attendance, including Ted Williams and Henry Aaron. Inducted that day were Brett, Robin Yount, Nolan Ryan and Orlando Cepeda, along with a few others. Geoge Bush, then in the early days of his run for president, was in the audience.

TR

I do have something of a disagreement with you on this one. A good hitting coach can take some .250 hitters and make them .350 hitters at some levels, perhaps even college. But there has to be some specific things wrong.

For example, coaching a hitter on strike-zone discipline can add a lot of points to an average. Part of that might include the old Ted Williams strike zone thing with the baseballs and the count. I don't know how many folks use that anymore, but it does work. A serious swing flaw can sometimes be worked out that gets a hitter going. Perhaps other folks can give other examples, too.

It's mostly a nit-picky thing. Even the best hitting coaches can't make most .250 hitters 100 points better. But ...

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Originally posted by TRhit:
SEE his speech ??? I usually listen to speeches

By the way ---if you dont see it you cannot hit it !!!

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I saw it.....I guess you didn't.

That is the difference between us-- I listen you watch--

Old Vaman

I hear you-- but most 250 hitters are 250 hitters plus or minus and what also intrigues me and this is not a knock but it seems most of the so called "best" hitting instructors were .250 career hitters at best in their MLB careers.

TR

Only explanation: Do as I say, not as I did?

Could well be

I have a question: If a hitting coach is not valuable to a players development at all levels, why does every professional team have one with them at all times? They have a hitting coach at rookie ball all the way through to the major leagues. I happen to believe that a hitter can be improved at all levels when a qulaity coach is available to him.

"We all seem to forget.........."

TRhit, there you go, again.........Saying "we" like others around here want you speaking for them.........I can tell you that many around here don't.....

Blue Dog

"We" is certainly better than your using "I" and "WRONG" all the time

SBK,

I have a few issues with some of the things you have said. I think you have a point although you do a poor job making it. You seem to talk in circles. You seem to call out coaches for allowing poor mechanics to rule in favor of success. You say that "good hitters" are allowed to use "poor swings" at the cost of winning. I think you give coaching too much credit. For instance:

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it is not normal for a hitter to be consistently off balance when they are swinging? It is not normal for a hitter to consistently be sawed off on an inside pitch. It is not normal for a hitter to not be able to actually drive a ball to all fields. It is not normal for a kid to be lunging or on their front foot so much that they have to swing down on the ball.

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These factors are not going to allow success no matter what level of pitching. I would hardly consider anyone who swings like this a "good hitter" no matter what the stats might say.

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It’s pretty sad when a college coach takes a look at an excellent high school hitter who has worked hard and is a good kid but the experienced coach recognizes that the kid’s swing probably won’t allow him to catch up to better pitching and therefore does not offer him a scholarship.

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In who's eyes is this kid an excellent hitter? Is this more of a "parent goggles" problem than a hitting mechanics problem?

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Hitters, you want to know why you do not have a picture perfect swing? It’s probably because you’ve never received the right instruction or if you have, you were not willing to pay the price to make it your natural swing.

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Who's natural swing? The kid's or the instructors? Or some guy that wrote a book who hit .265 in triple A one year? Is it "natural" if it has to be taught? Doesn't natural imply instinctual?

As for the "picture perfect swing" Who has that? Is it Ken Griffey Jr? Is it Ichiro? Is it Eric Davis? How bout Jeff Bagwell? Or Gary Sheffield? Which one is "perfect"??? I'm so confused

Now I agree there is an amount of improvement that can be made with hard work and proper coaching but to suggest you can make a college hitter out of someone who has less than spectacular "tools" gives too much credit to coaching.

In addition it attempts to marginalize the true(and RARE) God-given ability that many great hitters have!

JMHO....for what it's worth.

Blazer

you have a PM

TR,

Back atcha

Whew Blazer25, that was a lucid, well-thought out, interesting argument. Did you get someone to write that for you?

Now if anyone who reads this thinks I'm dissing Blazer25, don't. We know each other, he's coached my son and I have come to tolerate er..really like him. Of course I want my kid to get playing time. Love ya like a much, much younger brother, man!

Blazer, Thanks for taking the time to try to move this discussion forward. You may be right about me doing a poor job making my point. I’d prefer to chalk it up to a difficult topic and my inability to spend hours dissecting it.

I think most people are not even aware that there is a problem so it would be pretty tough for them to solve it.

Here’s the problem with different wording. Most players hitting mechanics are geared to hitting mediocre pitching. They have always had success because they are probably decent athletes to begin with, therefore they, their parents and their coaches do not feel that they need to make anything more than subtle changes to their swing. As soon as they face better pitching, their swing faults are exposed such as lunging on off speed, not being able to get their hands through on inside heat, casting, etc. These breakdowns in these “good” young hitters may not be real obvious to most casual observers while they watch them feast on mediocre pitching, but they are there and they are enough to cause the player not to be able to hit good pitching.

By the time these flaws are exposed by better pitching, they could even be in college and making fundamental changes to their swing then is probably tougher and more painful than most kids want to go through.

My point is that players who want to play at the next level need to develop fundamentals that allow them to compete and should not be lulled into thinking that their hitting is necessarily on track to be successful at the next level because they are currently having success against mediocre pitching. It is important that players who have higher goals look after their own interests because most coaches and parents would not even have a clue what I’m talking about because they just see Little Johnny as an excellent hitter because the stats tell them so.

Blazer,

To answer a few of your questions:

You feel I might be giving coaches too much credit but actually the opposite is true. Most youth coaches and parents probably have no idea what I’m talking and I doubt I could explain it to them if I had the time.

You ask what’s the “perfect” swing? Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder and we all have our own ideas. I believe, as do some others that there are some swing “absolutes” that all hitters should use, and whereas some other things are just style and each player can personalize and not adversely affect their chance for success. The players whose swing incorporates these absolutes at the earliest age are at an advantage.

I also believe that if a player is left to develop his own natural swing, their swing will contain faults that will prevent them from eventually hitting top-level pitching. This should not be a real profound statement. Watch any young kid first grab a bat and try to hit. It is their natural inclination to step their body into the ball and reach out to hit it. Left to their own devices, as they get older the only thing that changes is that they continue swinging like this but are stronger. Swinging like this is not the recipe for consistently hitting good pitching but most players continue to swing like this with making only subtle adjustments, as they get older.

I believe all hitters whose swings are serious flawed can be improved but I am under no illusion that they have the ability to become a good college hitter. My point is that I’d like to see them held back by their athletic ability and not because of their swing mechanics.

Getting good instruction at a young age makes a difference. What good instruction is and will the parent or kid realize and take advantage of it if they found it, is a different story.

SBK

The reason the good players play "up" is to play against better pitching and better competition. By doing this they eliminate what you talk about

Incidently I truly believe that a good hitter is a good hitter regardless of the pitching--in fact most good hitters hit better against good pitching than they do against mediocre pitching.

TRhit,
Take any current group of 10 hitters you want and I'll pick 10 pitchers. I'm willing to bet that they'll have poorer stats against those pitchers than they do overall.

Good hitters hit better against good pitchers than mediocre hitters do but they don't hit better against good pitchers than they do against mediocre pitchers.

CADAD

Bring it on--- I love good pitching I like good hitting even more

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Originally posted by TRhit:
SBK

The reason the good players play "up" is to play against better pitching and better competition. By doing this they eliminate what you talk about

Incidently I truly believe that a good hitter is a good hitter regardless of the pitching--in fact most good hitters hit better against good pitcching than they do against mediocre pitching.

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And there you have it.

Nothing is eliminated. What you have is survival of the fittest.

What you could have is a few more surviving if they understood the changes necessary.

Teacherman,

You get it. And to add just a little, the sooner they understand the "changes", the better chance they might be able to make them.

TR,
Ought to be interesting. I'll put together my list of 10 active pitchers and you put together your list of hitters and we'll agree when to post our lists. Then we can check their stats against each other (which may be easier said than done).

CADAD,

Looking forward to seeing the results on this experiment. Should be very interesting.