My J.V coach keeps telling me to drive my elbow and hands down to the ball. Whenever I attempt to do this I get bad results. Can any one explain what this means, how to do it, and how to practice it? Thank you
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since your hands start in a relatively high position you must drive down to the ball. Some kids have a problem dropping their back elbow which will make their lead elbow come out high. Drive your lead elbow towards your hip until you lever out. Your hands follow the same path.
quote:Originally posted by Kingjamesp:
My J.V coach keeps telling me to drive my elbow and hands down to the ball. Whenever I attempt to do this I get bad results. Can any one explain what this means, how to do it, and how to practice it? Thank you
I don't believe your hands or elbows get "driven" anywhere. You need to watch some video of great MLB hitters to see what they are doing. The hips drive the swing, if you drive your front elbow to the ball you will be losing stretch and power.
Thats exactly what I wish I could have said to my coach, but I don't want to ride the bench all season.
So,how do you experienced coaches out there advise this young man to go forward when the coach seems to be giving bad hitting cues.
I completely agree with powertoallfields on this and teach my kids accordingly.
IMO,I would say get a good hitting instructor and learn how to hit the proper way and the rest will take care of itself but keep your mouth shut and listen to your coaches in the mean time.
I completely agree with powertoallfields on this and teach my kids accordingly.
IMO,I would say get a good hitting instructor and learn how to hit the proper way and the rest will take care of itself but keep your mouth shut and listen to your coaches in the mean time.
quote:Originally posted by Kingjamesp:
Thats exactly what I wish I could have said to my coach, but I don't want to ride the bench all season.
Keep working on your own and learn how to do it right. If you are successful, they will leave you alone.
Powertoallfeailds, from your experience if a coach is set on teaching every one to hit one perticular style, regardless of the players past success, would I be able to do what they say during practice but then go back to my style during the game, assuming I had good results, without the coach noticing or caring? The difference isn't huge it's just how much rotation back, weight shift, and the stride with the front foot.
As a hitting cue, driving the hands and front elbow to the ball is not a bad cue.
It usually really means to drive the front elbow and hands down into the zone as a means of generating bat speed.
It is a cue that emphasises arm extension into the swing.
Ask your coach to explain it further to see if you guys are on the same page.
It usually really means to drive the front elbow and hands down into the zone as a means of generating bat speed.
It is a cue that emphasises arm extension into the swing.
Ask your coach to explain it further to see if you guys are on the same page.
quote:Originally posted by Kingjamesp:
Powertoallfeailds, from your experience if a coach is set on teaching every one to hit one perticular style, regardless of the players past success, would I be able to do what they say during practice but then go back to my style during the game, assuming I had good results, without the coach noticing or caring? The difference isn't huge it's just how much rotation back, weight shift, and the stride with the front foot.
IMO, if you are successful in the game, he probably won't care, but if he does say something, just say, "Coach...I've been working really hard on my own to gain confidence with what you are teaching, but right now I just don't have it down."
Quincy, could you post a video of players driving their hands/arms DOWN to the ball and getting good extension.?.? The only place I typically see "good extension" once swings begins is when a player is reaching the power V position..... never before/at contact...
so the hands rotate/yank the torso and hips through??
so the hands rotate/yank the torso and hips through??
Check this link out...great book on hitting. http://books.google.com/books?...z19o598zc-qnxLI0lwRU
Ozone-
if that book talks about full extension (making a triangle with shoulders) of both arms AT impact, throw it in the trash....
but i would still LOVE to see some video of someone doing this, that wasn't fooled on a pitch....
if that book talks about full extension (making a triangle with shoulders) of both arms AT impact, throw it in the trash....
but i would still LOVE to see some video of someone doing this, that wasn't fooled on a pitch....
quote:since your hands start in a relatively high position you must drive down to the ball. Some kids have a problem dropping their back elbow which will make their lead elbow come out high. Drive your lead elbow towards your hip until you lever out. Your hands follow the same path.
Ozone... "relatively high" meaning pre-swing? or launch position?
why is lead elbow "high" and back elbow "down" a bad thing? Explain.
if you want to drive your lead elbow down until your swing levels out, are you swinging "down" at impact or "level" at impact?
I think the book say's full extension comes after impact. The swing starts down then to level at impact. Naturally the lead elbow is higher than the back elbow. When I say dropping the elbow It is really the back shoulder that drops causing the front elbow to get too high and a uppercut swing results.
This would be a great place to interject Rotational Hitting vs. Linear hitting. Hitters do not swing down at the ball - the hands stay inside the ball and the lead elbow travels up and around the body -- producing a slight uppercut. With the impact of a pitcher throwing overhand, the height of the mound and gravity, the ball is traveling on a downward arc -- to keep the bat on plane longer, a slight upppercut swing gives the hitter a better chance of making consistent, hard contact.
I've seen the discussions about this, and I'm not sure I really understand Linear vs Rotational.
but..... don't most of these guys look like they're swinging down to the ball?
http://www.recruit.hittingillu...com/RunningStart.htm
but..... don't most of these guys look like they're swinging down to the ball?
http://www.recruit.hittingillu...com/RunningStart.htm
Quincy- can't see the video for whatever reason, but know it is one of Ted Williams... isn't he the one that said in his book, The Science of Hitting, "I used to think the proper swing was down or level too...." page 13. 
Don't use clips of players who admit the high-level swing in on a slight upslope...
DANO- if you think those swings are "down", then you need to work on analyzation of video...
watch one from an open side... if the swing is "down" as you say, how is the bat head BELOW the hands on every swing well before or right before contact?
Don't use clips of players who admit the high-level swing in on a slight upslope...DANO- if you think those swings are "down", then you need to work on analyzation of video...
watch one from an open side... if the swing is "down" as you say, how is the bat head BELOW the hands on every swing well before or right before contact?
quote:I think the book say's full extension comes after impact. The swing starts down then to level at impact. Naturally the lead elbow is higher than the back elbow. When I say dropping the elbow It is really the back shoulder that drops causing the front elbow to get too high and a uppercut swing results.
Your book says AT and just after... throw it in trash - or at least rip out that page... unless you can find one pic of a player that is in that position at contact...
Level at impact? how do you have bat LEVEL AT CONTACT when the pitch is at knees or belt? How would you "swing level" in those locations?
Look at the link DANO posted and watch opensided views... unless pitch is high, every back shoulder is dropping....
quote:Originally posted by danocaster:
I've seen the discussions about this, and I'm not sure I really understand Linear vs Rotational.
but..... don't most of these guys look like they're swinging down to the ball?
http://www.recruit.hittingillu...com/RunningStart.htm
No! The bathead obviously has to travel down in the beginning since it starts above the head, but watch the path of the hands. As soon as they get on plane they travel up. Every one of these hitters has an upward swing and their hands finish higher than when they first reach plane. The only great hitter (that had any decent power numbers) I've ever seen that didn't have this route to the ball is Mel Ott, who started with flat hands near the waist. Some base hit type guys will level out the swing from just before contact through extension.
If the bat starts above the contact point it has to be brought 'down to the ball'. If you notice the swing, he is looking for contact right at or after extension.
DANO ....
Great group of hitters. Down to level to up. And the back arm is not fully extended until after contact. And since the dialog started with the question about driving your elbow and hands down, you can see that after the hips thats exactly what happens and that coach was trying to get accross.
Great group of hitters. Down to level to up. And the back arm is not fully extended until after contact. And since the dialog started with the question about driving your elbow and hands down, you can see that after the hips thats exactly what happens and that coach was trying to get accross.
Q- the bat head starts above the head, yes. and once swing is going, the hands go flat(or inverted really) which brings the bat head down BEHIND the hitter as it makes a shallow "U" shape (to start coming up) to get on the path of the ball coming in... but bat head works UP from that point, to the point of impact, as good hitters are matching the to paths (ball/bat head)...
Ozone, you're lost... keep driving your hands to ball and teach that and then watch you take 3-5 years off all your players "time" of playing the game...
Ozone, you're lost... keep driving your hands to ball and teach that and then watch you take 3-5 years off all your players "time" of playing the game...
They use to say ..start the knob to the contact point, which is very similar to drive your hands to the ball. Of course your hands come back inside if you keep your back elbow in.
quote:Originally posted by Ozone:
They use to say ..start the knob to the contact point, which is very similar to drive your hands to the ball. Of course your hands come back inside if you keep your back elbow in.
If you believe in separation and whip effect, you can not drive your elbows down to the ball. The split second you move your elbows before the bathead is launched, you will loose stretch and batspeed. Once max hand load is reached, the knob doesn't lose relationship in distance from the body in any direction until the bathead passes the bottom hand (in a great swing that is).
Ozone-
so if pitch was low and away, where the point of impact would be over the plate/deep, you would instruct your players to push/pull the knob of bat to the spot over the plate where impact should be made... how do you keep your back elbow in when you cast your hands...??
so if pitch was low and away, where the point of impact would be over the plate/deep, you would instruct your players to push/pull the knob of bat to the spot over the plate where impact should be made... how do you keep your back elbow in when you cast your hands...??
You never cast your hands ..remember full extension happens at or just after contact. The knob of the bat only starts the swing plane. The elbow always stays close to the body until contact. The old towel drill still comes in handy.
Oz- yeah... still waiting to that video/picture of a hitter at full extension (power V) at contact... post today if ya have time... would love to see it...
knob of bat is inanimate... it doesn't start anything...
knob of bat is inanimate... it doesn't start anything...
quote:The old towel drill still comes in handy.
A good referance picture for young hitters to reach extension with their lead hand.
As for being at full extension, at contact. Seems to me that most hitters that make contact at this point, have been completly fooled on the pitch. The ability to keep the barrel in the zone thru extension is the only factor allowing them to get a small piece of the ball.
These shots are great. Look at Soriano ...he seems to be staying on the ball until full extension. Extension always comes after contact, using the term "at" only helps to visualize the "just after contact" explosion of full extension.
http://www.recruit.hittingillu...com/RunningStart.htm
http://www.recruit.hittingillu...com/RunningStart.htm
Front elbow up,back shoulder down,even on a high pitch(low pitch,front elbow is even higher) and arm extension hasn't been reached yet.This all from a contact hitter,not a power hitter.
AND,while we are at it,no bug beeing squawshed here.
AND,while we are at it,no bug beeing squawshed here.
The ultimate contact hitter,I think his elbow is too high.
IMO,this is the most common path to the ball,notice how the path of the hands match the path of the shoulders.
tfox-
great stuff... love how "at contact" arm angle is closer to 90 degrees than "full extension...
love how guys were talking earlier in this thread about front elbow down is correct... then "dropping back shoulder" is bad... to me all pics look like there is some serious shoulder dipping going on... doesn't seem to be hurting these guys...
Eckstein's lack of bug squishing is priceless...
if people would stop using coaching cues that they were brought up hearing, and actually look at the evidence, they would start to figure things out... if 96% of the best hitters in the world do it, something about it must be useful...
great stuff... love how "at contact" arm angle is closer to 90 degrees than "full extension...
love how guys were talking earlier in this thread about front elbow down is correct... then "dropping back shoulder" is bad... to me all pics look like there is some serious shoulder dipping going on... doesn't seem to be hurting these guys...
Eckstein's lack of bug squishing is priceless...
if people would stop using coaching cues that they were brought up hearing, and actually look at the evidence, they would start to figure things out... if 96% of the best hitters in the world do it, something about it must be useful...
quote:Q- the bat head starts above the head, yes. and once swing is going, the hands go flat(or inverted really) which brings the bat head down BEHIND the hitter as it makes a shallow "U" shape (to start coming up) to get on the path of the ball coming in... but bat head works UP from that point, to the point of impact, as good hitters are matching the to paths (ball/bat head)...
-Diablo
"since your hands start in a relatively high position you must drive down to the ball. Some kids have a problem dropping their back elbow which will make their lead elbow come out high. Drive your lead elbow towards your hip until you lever out. Your hands follow the same path."
-Ozone
OZONE/Q-
Which of these quotes do you think is happening in the last photo Fox posted (the frames)... look at hitter's hands in every frame... they are not going anywhere, player is getting them flat/inverted... as kinetic energy is working up body... notice the more inverted the hands get the lower the pitch is ends up being... i.e. look at Ichiro's hands and how inverted they are - pitch is so low... relative to Eck's and ChiSox guy... they are trying to match planes, they are not "attacking" anything...
All the photos are photos I have found on here or other places on the web.
Diablo,Yes,my son gets told so much not to dip his back shoulder that it is almost comical at this point.One of the best hitters in his age group in the area. I have posted this several times but not sure you have seen it.He is only 9 in this video and has much better follow through now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjeotQgQtU
Funny,the first day of hitting instructions with a hitting instructor,we were told that the front elbow will work up higher the lower the pitch gets.He also said that the front or lead elbow should be in a straight line to the end of the bat at contact.This subsequently will have the bat parallel with the shoulders.
ALOT,of what he said is quite evident in the photos.
Diablo,Yes,my son gets told so much not to dip his back shoulder that it is almost comical at this point.One of the best hitters in his age group in the area. I have posted this several times but not sure you have seen it.He is only 9 in this video and has much better follow through now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjeotQgQtU
Funny,the first day of hitting instructions with a hitting instructor,we were told that the front elbow will work up higher the lower the pitch gets.He also said that the front or lead elbow should be in a straight line to the end of the bat at contact.This subsequently will have the bat parallel with the shoulders.
ALOT,of what he said is quite evident in the photos.
I will say though,I feel that many that try to learn rotational hitting or whatever name they want to give to it,forget to extend which I think is detrimental to the swing.IMO,there must be extension,it is just that the timing of it is crucial.Too many are trying not to extend at contact end up never reaching extension.
I also feel that the wrist have been forgotten in the swing with many of the instructors today.Even my sons coach never mentioned them.He did mention and worked on relaxing the muscles and creating batspeed through relaxing and letting it go but the wrist were never mentioned.My son had a former minor leaguer as a coach and he PREACHED wrist.So we started trying it and I believe they are important as well.
I also feel that the wrist have been forgotten in the swing with many of the instructors today.Even my sons coach never mentioned them.He did mention and worked on relaxing the muscles and creating batspeed through relaxing and letting it go but the wrist were never mentioned.My son had a former minor leaguer as a coach and he PREACHED wrist.So we started trying it and I believe they are important as well.
From what I've read here and other places on the internet, rotational hitting approach seems to make sense.
If I'm going to teach this to my son and/or his team mates, I've got to learn more about it. It's not that I've been lazy about studying up on coaching, it's just that I haven't seen anything that talked about rotational hitting (or called it that anyway) Of the books that I've always gone to is the Bragg Stockton book. Anyone familiar with it?
What is the best place to start to study up on it, to give the right cues?
If I'm going to teach this to my son and/or his team mates, I've got to learn more about it. It's not that I've been lazy about studying up on coaching, it's just that I haven't seen anything that talked about rotational hitting (or called it that anyway) Of the books that I've always gone to is the Bragg Stockton book. Anyone familiar with it?
What is the best place to start to study up on it, to give the right cues?
Think leverage. A smaller force applied down on the lever produces a force multiplied depending upon the length of the lever from the fulcrum.
Downward to extension magnifies the bat speed by the same principle.
In a perfect world, all contact would be made just after extension.
Downward to extension magnifies the bat speed by the same principle.
In a perfect world, all contact would be made just after extension.
Q-
umm that whole lever thing doesn't work out exactly... because you can't forget that the amount of work done is given by force times distance.
Sooo to move a certain unit of weight (bat) with a force of half a unit, the distance from the fulcrum to the spot where force is applied must be twice the distance between the weight and the fulcrum.
For example, to cut in half the force required to move a weight resting 1 meter (about length of bat) from the fulcrum, we would need to apply force 2 meters from the other side of the fulcrum. How you gonna do that?
The amount of work done is always the same and independent of the dimensions of the lever (in an ideal lever).
umm that whole lever thing doesn't work out exactly... because you can't forget that the amount of work done is given by force times distance.
Sooo to move a certain unit of weight (bat) with a force of half a unit, the distance from the fulcrum to the spot where force is applied must be twice the distance between the weight and the fulcrum.
For example, to cut in half the force required to move a weight resting 1 meter (about length of bat) from the fulcrum, we would need to apply force 2 meters from the other side of the fulcrum. How you gonna do that?
The amount of work done is always the same and independent of the dimensions of the lever (in an ideal lever).
