Draftee "path"?...

It's different for everyone.
College players sign, few play in rookie A, most in short season A or regular season low A depending on the team and their level of experience. Some can be in High A by mid to end of summer. HS players, because it is their first time away from home and age, often attend complex rookie camp but then move quickly into rookie A league, short season or long season low A. Some teams don't have all 3 levels of low A ball.
Fall instructional league generally is if you need instruction or need more work you didn't get in during season (rehab, change of position, or needed position to field teams) HS player, or if you are a late sign. Many temas now fill their fall instructional leagues with players from the Dominican. Fall instruction can be the pits.

If a player shows promise and has done well in season, it's an invite to spring training.

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Good info TPM, thanks!

So all things being equal($, round)...it is better to sign early and get to work?

No advantage to waiting and signing late if you are a late round HS sign, and want fall instructional league to fully hone skills as much as possible before seeing Low A games??

44
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quote:

Originally posted by observer44:
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Good info TPM, thanks!

So all things being equal($, round)...it is better to sign early and get to work?

No advantage to waiting and signing late if you are a late round HS sign, and want fall instructional league to fully hone skills as much as possible before seeing Low A games??

44
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I am not fully understanding your question.
If a player wants to play pro ball he should sign as soon as possible because the sooner you sign the more time you get needed to advance and learn. milb is about learning everyday. It never stops.
A HS later round pick most likely will spend two years in rookie low A, which is a lot different than low A long season. Lot of that is designed due to age, that's why many players decide to attend college first to avoid that. Every organization does things differently. But generally teams don't move 17,18 year olds quickly up to leagues with 22,23,24 year olds unless they are top picks and have future MLB talent and mature.
And all teams use fall instruction for different reasons. Spring training determines where you will go that next season, most of the young players remain in extended spring camp for practice until after the draft, then head out to their destination.

Ob44,
you have a pm.

quote:

And all teams use fall instruction for different reasons. Spring training determines where you will go that next season, most of the young players remain in extended spring camp for practice until after the draft, then head out to their destination.

TPM, that must vary a lot by organization. I know of one, and read about others, where up to 20 or more of the slots on each of next years minor league rosters are known by October of the prior year. In other words, how you performed in the season just completed plays a huge role in where you get assigned, if you do, the following Spring.
In Spring Training, there are about 20 or so guys at each level playing/competing for those remaining 5 spots at each level of full season.
In terms of a late signing, if you are a high pick and a college player, it will be less troublesome than a late sign for a high school draftee.
For the latter, teams do like to use short season to acclimate them to professional baseball and all it entails so they are ready from day when when the full season of 144 games begins. If you signed late and have little to no experience with travel and being a professional, it is very tough to just jump in for full season. If you are a high pick out of high school, teams don't like to waste a season when you did not sign, or signed late and then another full season by having the player in extended and then to short season. That is nearly two full years they view as a loss of development...and for the player, two more drafts of players they like as much or more.

INF,
I was trying to make a point that a better spring than fall helps determine where one might end up.

My sons friend did very well first season and he was assigned to high A spring squad, he did so well in the spring he was moved to the MLB spring training then he went straight to AA. His dynamic spring moved him along, needs now has brought him to AAA one year out of college.

My own was assigned to low A, he had a fair rehab fall and very good spring which sent him to high A. Most of his original team mates are now in AA.

I think we are saying the same thing...this varies by organization.
Some move players very aggressively and for some, you can be an All-Star and dominating and they still don't move you, even if you were a high pick.
For instance, last summer, one former high school player who had been #1 pick had a very dominant year in the MWL offensively and stayed there the entire year.
Other organizations promote players quickly until they get challenged and struggle.
I also agree that for some, Spring Training does make a difference. But our experience and information was that most decisions had been made long before Spring Training started for the vast number of players. Again, varies by organizational approach.

I am glad that we agree.

The question was what was the "normal" path for a draftee. Normal for some may not be for others and lots depends on being a HS or college draftee.

My personal opinion is that a late HS pick should head off to college.

Don't know that there is a "normal". Which organization, which position & how fat is the club at that position, how old is the player, hs/JC/college, where was he drafted, what was his bonus, what phase is the moon in, is there an R in the month, animal-vegetable-or-mineral? Word is if you try to figure out what the organization is thinking, you'll go crazy.

Expected would be short season for college players, rookie ball for hs/young international players. Instrux can be to give DL'd players more time and can also be for players they'd like to have a closer look at --- which would be a good thing --- and usually for first, maybe second year guys. Instrux is great when you're invited and you're glad to see it over.

There may be movement to other levels if a guy there is struggling, released, or injured. There's a knock-on effect if someone on the parent club is injured as well.

Some clubs are known for quick advancement; some are known for leaving players at the same level for more than a season. Some want you to hit every level and pull from AAA; some put their MLB prospects in AA and AAA is a Parking Lot for guys to play with MLers to rehab with. Jumping levels can be a very good thing, or it can be a place to plug in an organizational guy as a backup and be pretty meaningless.

In MiLB, a player plays both for his organization and for every other one. There are scouts from most teams at many games, checking for trade bait.

A couple of the roving coaches told my son to remember that the guys making the ultimate decisions are businessmen, not baseball men.

"what phase is the moon in, is there an R in the month, animal-vegetable-or-mineral? Word is if you try to figure out what the organization is thinking, you'll go crazy."

From every thing Ive seen this statement makes the most sense. Every time I tried to figure out what the organization is going to do I've been wrong!

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Great info from all...thanks!

I wanna focus on this for a minute....

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando: Instrux can be to give DL'd players more time and can also be for players they'd like to have a closer look at --- which would be a good thing --- and usually for first, maybe second year guys. Instrux is great when you're invited and you're glad to see it over.

So...Correct me if I am wrong...But...

...if I were a late round pick...and I wanted to manipulate my best chance to avoid getting lost in the shuffle and wanted to gte my best chance at a "a closer look"...If I were smart and I could get away with it, I might purposely sign late (Mid August), too late for rookie or short season and go directly to instructional league and thereby improve my chances to get personal attention/instruction and a much closer look?....

Now admittedly many things would have to fall into place...but does this make theoretical sense? Is it done?

44
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OB,
That's hard to say as Orlando pretty much summed it up in her statement.

Some organizations may frown upon the late signing and let others who worked all summer have the oportunity, while others may think the player needs to attend instructional because he signed late.

A late round pick (Second Day guy, I assume, but how late?) holding out until August might find himself without a job. That's way late in the season and every passing week gives a bubble guy the opportunity to prove his worth. They know what they have (with wood, at that level) with the bubble guy; the draftee is an unknown. How much PT can he show with a month or less of games?

What you're suggesting might work, but I would consider it a gamble. Regard instrux as practice with scrimmages; the season is games. Which would you rather judge a player by?

On the Fall plans vs. ST plans, I think rosters are penciled in for the Fall and confirmed or altered in ST. What kind of shape the guys show up in at ST is critical. We've allseen it on the MLB rosters, expecting a guy to have a slot on the 25 man who loses it in ST.

quote:

Originally posted by observer44:
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Great info from all...thanks!

I wanna focus on this for a minute....

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando: Instrux can be to give DL'd players more time and can also be for players they'd like to have a closer look at --- which would be a good thing --- and usually for first, maybe second year guys. Instrux is great when you're invited and you're glad to see it over.

So...Correct me if I am wrong...But...

...if I were a late round pick...and I wanted to manipulate my best chance to avoid getting lost in the shuffle and wanted to gte my best chance at a "a closer look"...If I were smart and I could get away with it, I might purposely sign late (Mid August), too late for rookie or short season and go directly to instructional league and thereby improve my chances to get personal attention/instruction and a much closer look?....

Now admittedly many things would have to fall into place...but does this make theoretical sense? Is it done?

44
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O'44,
There isn't much chance that would work for a late rounder.
Fall Instrux is by invitation of the club, only. Very, very few late round picks are invited unless they were a late rounder who should have gone much higher. The other one who mightget an invite is the player who signed and during short season really surprised the club with his play/performance and earned the invitation by that play.
Finally, any late rounder who tried to play the system that way would likely find himself unsigned. You get one offer within 15 days of the draft. If, as a late rounder, you pass on it, the team moves on and signs the next guy. They do not negotiate with you. Once they have signed the players they need to fill all short season rosters, or use all the draft bonus money they budgeted, they stop signing.

If your a late round HS player you are going to complex ball for the summer, which is like instruxs .
I think you'll get more chances to impress in complex ball than in short season..... Complex ball is more about instruction and evaluation.

A pick that may have gone higher and fell for whatever reasons may get an invite to instrux. It all depends on the player and what value he may bring to the club. Some teams are patient, the player may go off to play for the summer to prove he is worth more than they want to give, this can be dangerous. Last year the Cards had a early pick who did that, he had a bad summer, no way were they going to give him the 800K he was demanding.
The only problem ad INFdad suggests, is that it is now almost a month after the draft, international draft, teams are spending money they may have given to others and signing FA if needed.

GM's are pretty smart, they don't like to be manipulated. I can't imagine a lower round player trying to outsmart the organization, they have more experience at it than the player.

quote:

If I were smart and I could get away with it, I might purposely sign late (Mid August), too late for rookie or short season and go directly to instructional league and thereby improve my chances to get personal attention/instruction and a much closer look?....

So, if you waited a year to take a job out of college, would you expect to be promoted at the same time the other employees with a year of experience?

MLB teams draft about 50 players and don't expect to sign all of them.

When they sign the amount they expect to sign and spend their budgeted amount of money, they don't sign anymore.

I wouldn't want to be in the bottom 25 to be signed.

quote:

If I were smart and I could get away with it,

Your're not and you won't.

quote:

So...Correct me if I am wrong...But...

quote:

Finally, any late rounder who tried to play the system that way would likely find himself unsigned. You get one offer within 15 days of the draft. If, as a late rounder, you pass on it, the team moves on and signs the next guy. They do not negotiate with you. Once they have signed the players they need to fill all short season rosters, or use all the draft bonus money they budgeted, they stop signing.

Sorry, infielddad, I didn't catch that in your post or we posted about the same time.

But, repeating that several times is probably a good thing.

If you want to play MLB baseball, and an MLB team ask you to do anything (show up for a tryout) (ask you to sign a contract), the "smart" thing to do, is to do what they ask.

They pick about 1,500 a year to play.

If you don't, another one will.

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:

I wouldn't want to be in the bottom 25 to be signed.

[/QUOTE]

FO, you probably didn't mean that the way I'm taking it.

But there's a whole lotta guys who would take that over zippo.

Right, Orlando, I didn't mean it the way it's stated.

Here's what I meant.

I wouldn't want to be in the bottom 25 "remaining" to be signed.

hahaha....short A is rookie ball. Mrs. TPM.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuilder:
hahaha....short A is rookie ball. Mrs. TPM.

I don't know any player in short season A ball that considers themselves to be in 'rookie' ball, and the MiLB site identifies them as totally different levels : AAA, AA, Class A (advanced), Class A, Class A (short season), and Rookie. So technically, short season A ball is NOT rookie ball.

I don't care about technicalities. In pro ball. Short season baseball is considered "rookie" League. Most every player in those short season leagues are in their 1st season of pro baseball and the ones who played the year before. Well, they would be a "two year rookie ball player". Thats just the way it is in the industry. Trust me.

Your in rookie ball until you get on a "full season club".

If there weren't a league designation in MiLB of Rookie, sb, you would be correct insofar as a first-year player is called a "rookie". However, as FBM has pointed out, Short Season is a separate league and designation within the system, and any player transferred from SS to Rookie would, indeed, know he had been demoted.

Not technicality; reality.

You all make good points, technically swingbuilder is correct, and IMO Orlando and FBM are also correct.
Player destinations are different for every player on different teams and my understanding is according to age and ability. A first year player is definetly a rookie.
According to the question asked my answer was based upon the normal path for MOST HS players, unless very high picks, get assigned rookie complex ball then to rookie low A. MOST college players head to ss, low A or high A. A lot depends on the organizations needs as well.
Swingbuilder, is that better.

Your a good sport TPM. I was having a little fun with you as I knew you understand.

When we prepare for the draft and we get to a point in the preparation. We have a designation of 1) We don't want to take any two year "rookie" ball, PLAYERS.

That means PLAYERS that will have to play a second year in a league that is anything other than a FULL SEASON LEAGUE.

The Gulf Coast League is a complex league. Its "rookie ball"

The New York Penn League is a short season league. Its also "rookie ball" when we designate "NO PLAYER THAT HAS TO PLAY TWO YEARS OF ROOKIE BALL"

The preference would be for a player to sign and play rookie ball and then the second season he go to a "FULL SEASON" league.

I could name you over a hundred players who have played 3 straight seasons in a short season league. On the same team. That player is not ready to progress yet from the rookie league because a majority of the players he is playing against are in their 1st season of pro ball each of those 3 years yet he is in his 3rd season.

Also, going from High A to Low A is a demotion ORLANDO and the player also knows he has been demoted. Low A is not rookie ball. Its low A. Rookie ball is short season. Short season is a large majority of players that remain in "extended spring training". Know what that is, ORLANDO?

I am trying to answer the original question "what is the normal path for HS later round picks".

May mean different things according to the team.
Cards have three shorter season rookie teams, GLC, Appalachian and NYP all begin playing after extended ends. Not all teams have three rookie level teams. Not all teams have ss. I have seen some HS players spend first season in GLC, then at Johnson City, that's two seasons (not full) of rookie. Some players spent two full seasons in Johnson City, one player spent time in Johnson City, onto NYP, then to low A. I think a lot depends on age as well. The path for college players and high school players appears very different.

Swingbuilder,
I told the MOMS to go easy on you!

Golly gee whiz, SWINGBUILDER, I do know all that; I have a very keen grasp of the obvious.

And I can't tell you how grateful I am for the primer on your terminology. Really. I can't.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuilder:
Short season is a large majority of players that remain in "extended spring training". Know what that is, ORLANDO?

SB, that isn't correct, at all, for the short season A ball leagues like the NY/PENN and the NWL. It is more true for the short season Rookie leagues like the Pioneer and Applachian.
To say the majority of players in the NY/PENN and NWL came from Extended just isn't right. The rosters in those two leagues are largely made from the draft and then combined with some Latin players in extended who are young and did not get an assignment in April. You might have up to and additional 3 that came through the draft in prior years who were in extended, but 3 would be a lot.
To say a "large majority" from extended make up the rosters in the short season NY/PENN and NWL isn't supported by looking at the rosters and how they are almost always made up of 20-23 or so players from that years draft and/or younger Latin players ranked highly within an organization.

Thanks TPM...I need that assitance!

Infielddad....did I say NY PEN LEAGUE and the NWL? I don't recall saying that.

What I said was a large majority of players in short season leagues.

That would include all short season leagues. You'd be surprised. I'll even make a wager that each of the 30 teams has at least 50 players in extended spring training. Then throw in a full team in the Dominican league and also a full team in the Venezualean League. That pushes the player total above 100.

Sorry Orlando, didn't mean to be a turd.

The path of a lower drafted HS player would almost always involve......

Season 1....Complex league, like the GCL. Some teams don't have a complex team. That means he would probably play in the Pioneer League or the Appalachian League.

Season 2.....Extended Spring training. Then a complex team, like the GCL or the Pioneer League or Appalachian League.

Keep in mind that a player is drafted late because the team feels his abilities are farther away from the big leagues and will need more time to refine. Words like crude and raw get used to describe the player.

Also, keep in mind that a player can move up at anytime to a higher league.

Season 3.....Low A ball is the goal. But not always the result. This is where guys get released because the team feels the player has reached his potential and still isn't good enough to make a full season club.

Hopefully the player moves from Low A to High A during the season.

Season 4......High A or Double A would be the goal.

Season 5.....Double A or Triple A with a chance at a call up by season end to big leagues.

Season 6.....Triple A or Big leagues.

quote:

The New York Penn League is a short season league. Its also "rookie ball" when we designate "NO PLAYER THAT HAS TO PLAY TWO YEARS OF ROOKIE BALL"

SB, in response to whether you said the NY/Penn league was short season, you did... and it is so it looks like we agree on both.

quote:

SB, that isn't correct, at all, for the short season A ball leagues like the NY/PENN and the NWL. It is more true for the short season Rookie leagues like the Pioneer and Applachian.
To say the majority of players in the NY/PENN and NWL came from Extended just isn't right.

This is your quote...I never said the above. you did. What I said was this.....

quote:

Short season is a large majority of players that remain in "extended spring training".

A majority of players in ALL of the short season leagues are made up of players that were in extended spring training. I wasn't specific to the NWL or the Penn league.

I don't know if you are talking about a "majority" which is where you are now, or a "large majority" which is where you were before. They mean something different to me by a "large" factor.
I think I have a decent grasp of the system and process, certainly enough to know that, absent an injury, being left in extended, at the end of Spring Training, at any stage in the process, means you can be playing for your baseball life.
If you are repeating a level, for other than injury reasons, you also can be competing for your baseball life.
If get get moved down a level, for other than injury reasons, you can be competing for your baseball life.
If you are injured, you are competing for your baseball life, but in a very different way.

Im at Large.

Also your comments would vary per org. But I have no problem with that. In some org's. Players are moved to help a club win. for example 1st half and 2nd half. Notice, I did say some Org's.

At "large," both of your points are well taken.