Dual position players

There is obvious value in 2 way guys. However, not many are capable of doing it at the higher levels.

Even if a player is capable, often he is too valuable at one position (usually pitching) that coaches don't want to take any chances. Typically the 2 way guy at the higher levels of college is often a pitcher/1st baseman or DH.

The #1 ranked team in college baseball (DI) has a couple very good 2 way guys. Many colleges have no 2 way players. Needless to say, you really need to be very good at both.

At lower levels you will see it much more.

One of the big issues is that weight lifting programs differ substantially for pitchers vs. offensive players. So, if you're a pitcher and avoiding bench pressing, etc., you may not develop your power at the plate as you might have had you focused on your offensive position.

That problem is compounded when you see guys being pushed to 1B and DH to save their arms, because you can't win those positions unless you have HR power.

You do see some 2-way guys, but more often you see a kid recruited 2-way who migrates to one or the other once at school, depending on where he's stronger and what the team's needs are. I think some coaches do like having some flexibility coming in so that if a kid struggles at one role, he can still carry his weight on the roster in the other role.

To add to PGStaff's and Midlo Dad's comments, a couple of observations:

(1) To put 2-way play into perspective, by the time a 2-way player gets to college, he's competing for playing time with guys who have focused on either position play or pitching for several years. With the exception of the most talented, most advanced 2-way players, this creates a very steep hill for 2-way players to climb.

(2) If a player is good enough to make the roster as a 2-way player, he's just signed up for even more time committed to baseball than he otherwise would have. Given the expectation that he also perform in the classroom, that's a whale of a commitment.... and the whole time, he continues to compete for innings with teammates who are concentrating their practice and conditioning time on one or the other.

Many high school players who play well enough to go on to play in college, pitch and play a position well enough to start at both at the high school level. Very few are capable of continuing in a 2-way capacity when they move up to college.

It can be done but there are not a lot of them. My freshmen son was recruited by a number of D1 programs as an OF/P, but ended up playing for a high level DIII.

He is the only one on his college team, this year at least. (they have had others in the past) He lifts primarily for position, but also does all of the pitcher specific throwing work. His team has one of the highest ranked pitching staff’s in the country so there is not a lot of room for any freshmen pitchers. They project him as a starter, but because of his team’s depth he is coming out of the bullpen. Right now they want his bat so he is happy to get playing time on the field. I am quite sure that if he gets his velo up in the mid 90’s than he will be spending more time on the hill. They have told him they want him to bat when he is pitching, but when you see their number one pitch, and the intensity he has, I could see how it would be hard to compete at that level and continue to bat. I could see him in the role of a closer maybe.

As Midlo pointed out eventually I think he will migrate to one side or the other. There are guys who get drafted as a pitcher and get switched and vise versa. Not a lot but there are some. There is some advantage from a recruiting standpoint, but not a lot. College’s that compete at a high level are looking for the best players they can get at a position, so it is not really an advantage to be mediocre at two. As prepster pointed out the only reason he is hitting is that he beat out some other kids. If he didn't he would be sitting the bullpen like the rest of the pen guys.

A college summer ball teammate of mine was frustrated as hell he didn't hit anymore. He was one of the best high school hitters I've ever played against. He nearly singlehandedly upset our Legion team at states with his hitting and pitching. We were fortunte he ran out of innings. He was recruited as a P/1B. When he got to college he was told he's a pitcher only. He pitched in the CWS and MLB. I guess it worked out for him.

It is going to be very diffcult to be a dual player at a high college level. If you are a decent arm coaches will want you to focus the most of your time on that and not risk being hurt swinging everyday and playing a position.

Not to say it won't happen but it takes a very special person to do so. If it does happen you will most likely DH or play OF where you will not throw very much.

quote:

Originally posted by lambo:
It is going to be very diffcult to be a dual player at a high college level. If you are a decent arm coaches will want you to focus the most of your time on that and not risk being hurt swinging everyday and playing a position.

Not to say it won't happen but it takes a very special person to do so. If it does happen you will most likely DH or play OF where you will not throw very much.

Here's a strange combination on two accounts: Marcus Stroman plays second and pitches. What's even more amazing is he's 5'9" and hits 94 on the gun. He's a first ten rounds pitching prospect.

RJM- I faced Stroman in high school several times. He played shortstop for his summer team and was their closer. It was really unbelievable watching him play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ture=player_embedded

Here's a question I have debated over quite a bit ,

You have a dual guy who is a great hitter deserves to be in the lineup great college hitter. But has draft potential on mound and scout interest. Are you doing that kid a disservice by letting him play a position everyday, risking injury and a potential career. Or should u just let him play the game ?

If asked several scouts this same question and received several different opinions and answers

lambo ... I believe you would get arguments on both sides from college coaches. I know of college coaches who smoke pitchers arms to get to the CWS. So the real question in your scenario and mine is what perccentage of college coaches care more about winning than pitcher's arms?

I'm not implyng the Duke coach doesn't care about pitcher's arms because Stroman plays both ways. I saw the same thing at Boston College with 1B/relief pitcher Mark Belfiore. He was a first round selection as a pitcher.

Josh Dezse from Ohio State plays 1st and is the closer. Last weekend against Georgia Tech he had three homers in one game. Turned down $550,000 summer of 2010 to sign with Yanks.

quote:

Originally posted by lambo:
Here's a question I have debated over quite a bit ,

You have a dual guy who is a great hitter deserves to be in the lineup great college hitter. But has draft potential on mound and scout interest. Are you doing that kid a disservice by letting him play a position everyday, risking injury and a potential career. Or should u just let him play the game ?

If asked several scouts this same question and received several different opinions and answers

Is it a disservice to play college baseball at all? There is risks in every day life and these players have chosen to play college baseball so let them play.

we will use our pitchers as a DH if they have a STICK

Huston Street was a SS and UT's closer.
Buster Posey was FSU's catcher and even closed some games to name a few.

Interested in this topic since it looks 4thGen will be doing some pitching this year at a high level D3. The past two years he's been strictly a SS. His team graduated three really good pitchers, (one was an All American as a two way player). All fall he's been throwing with the pitchers and has pitched effectively in preseason scrimmages. His situation is a little complicated since he is an infielder but he may spend some time at 2nd to reduce wear and tear on his arm. He's pitched in summer ball and says right now his arm feels great. Of course, he was always a two way player up to college and some schools recruited him as a PO. He's a baseball player and is happy for the chance to contribute wherever he can help the team.

Son spent most of his college freshman year (last year) as a OF/closer. This year he ended up having minor elbow surgery and a new coach, who has him as a 1B. Currently he is working his way back to pitching. He does pitching specific workouts as far as weight training is concerned. Lots of time spent working extra to get both parts of his game in. He used to not do a lot of fielding work, but had not played 1B since he was 15, so this year he has spent lots of extra time on fielding.

Original coach who recruited my son told him he considered him a player and a half. He is currently the only player on the roster who sees time as a two-way guy.

Many times the player will end up just picking one or the other once they get into their college career, but on the other hand, this summer a coach offered one of our players two-players worth of a scholarship because he viewed his abilities as a pitcher and an infielder as basically signing two separate players. It seems the more options a college coach has to work with the better and the more value they see in a player, even though down the road they may specialize them into one role or the other.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseballaddict4:
Many times the player will end up just picking one or the other once they get into their college career, but on the other hand, this summer a coach offered one of our players two-players worth of a scholarship because he viewed his abilities as a pitcher and an infielder as basically signing two separate players. It seems the more options a college coach has to work with the better and the more value they see in a player, even though down the road they may specialize them into one role or the other.

Welcome to the HSBBW.
I am not sure I agree with all that you have posted.
Players don't pick their positions, others do it for them. I have seen a college coach convert position guys to pitchers even when they didn't want to. It's all about where you are needed most.
A lot also depends on the program.
Do colleges coaches give two way players MORE $$ because they view them as two seperate players or that they see a strong potential to be very strong in one position or another later on?

quote:

I'm not implyng the Duke coach doesn't care about pitcher's arms because Stroman plays both ways. I saw the same thing at Boston College with 1B/relief pitcher Mark Belfiore. He was a first round selection as a pitcher.

Just an update: Stroman is pitcher only this season at Duke. His first two seasons he was a two way player. But this year he's the Friday starter and that is pretty much all. A couple of pinch hit AB's and pinch runner appearances so far.

He's a remarkable athlete, which everyone who knows him is aware of. I would have to say he is an average college level bat - and that is no doubt why his third (and probably last?) year of college ball he is pitching only.

It's been a pleasure watching him play with my son for three years. He's truly a special talent.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Just an update: Stroman is pitcher only this season at Duke. His first two seasons he was a two way player. But this year he's the Friday starter and that is pretty much all. A couple of pinch hit AB's and pinch runner appearances so far.

He's a remarkable athlete, which everyone who knows him is aware of. I would have to say he is an average college level bat - and that is no doubt why his third (and probably last?) year of college ball he is pitching only.

It's been a pleasure watching him play with my son for three years. He's truly a special talent.

Meanwhile, Duke catcher, Jeff Kremer's batting average and on-base percentage are .357 and .472 through the team's first 19 games this season! That's pretty special, too, dad!!

quote:

Originally posted by Prepster:

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Just an update: Stroman is pitcher only this season at Duke. His first two seasons he was a two way player. But this year he's the Friday starter and that is pretty much all. A couple of pinch hit AB's and pinch runner appearances so far.

He's a remarkable athlete, which everyone who knows him is aware of. I would have to say he is an average college level bat - and that is no doubt why his third (and probably last?) year of college ball he is pitching only.

It's been a pleasure watching him play with my son for three years. He's truly a special talent.

Meanwhile, Duke catcher, Jeff Kremer's batting average and on-base percentage are .357 and .472 through the team's first 19 games this season! That's pretty special, too, dad!!

I follow the Duke team despite Chris being out for the season. Wow that Kremer kid!

TPM,

As someone who was converted from an infield to pitcher in college, I 100% agree with the fact that position changes are sometimes not either wanted or even predicted. I think the key statement that you made is about it all depending on the program. In the case of the scholarship offer I was referring to, it was a smaller school so I think they viewed this particular player as a "big fish in a small pond" being able to contribute at a high level at both positions.

In terms of seeing strong potential later on I think your exactly right. Great example is the one made about Stroman at Duke. It seems sometimes these two-way players come into school as quality both ways and for whatever reason one aspect of their game develops much better than the other, and like you said the coach puts them where they are needed most. Being dynamic and even giving a coach that option though can be attractive when being recruited.

One other issue I didn't see come up was "time".

A P/OF has to workout with the pitchers, throw bullpens, etc. He also has to work out with the hitters and take OF. He also has to be a college student.

Obviously some do it, but it takes a lot of talent, time management and brains.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
One other issue I didn't see come up was "time".

A P/OF has to workout with the pitchers, throw bullpens, etc. He also has to work out with the hitters and take OF. He also has to be a college student.

Obviously some do it, but it takes a lot of talent, time management and brains.

I mentioned the extra time in my post, but maybe not strong enough. You can't imagine how much additional time goes into trying to be a dual player. You can't be in 2 places at once, and some coach is always complaining that he wasn't doing enough in their area. Something usually has to give.

Last year my son didn't spend a lot of time on outfield fielding. This year he was moved to a new position and had injury that has prevented him from pitching yet this year, but he is working back towards doing both again soon. I know his fall was crazy with learning to play 1B as well as pitch.

While it is true there are more time demands on a two-way player, sometimes your time is more efficiently used. IE your program tends to be more tailored. I know in my son’s case he does not have to shag, he does not have to hit fungos, he does not have to do some of the more mundane activities pitchers sometimes end up doing. He gets inserted into hitting groups ahead of others so he can go throw a pen, etc, so there are some advantages. His team is so deep in pitching this year, many of the relievers are getting limited innings, but for him this is being made up with more time in the field, because of some injuries, at least this year.

It will be interesting to see what happens when games are "do/die". I watched Aaron Brown almost give a mid week Pepperdine game away in the 9th this week, and I am not sure if it was because he did not have time to warm up in the pen or what. I can see if a player evolves into a number 1-3 starter that the coach may well want to rest a player a couple of days prior to an important start.