Early Commits/Ivy, Patriot, NESCAC

There are no early commits to high academic schools that do not give athletic scholarships because those schools may not (can not) give commitments until the Admissions Offices grant acceptances. The earliest this can happen is Oct-Nov of senior year for schools that send out likely letters, or mid-Dec of senior year for schools that do not do likely letters for players that apply Early Admission or Early Decision.

 

This is the gut-wrenching situation for players who have a choice between high academic schools...on the one hand... and D1s who can offer NLIs at any time to players in any high school class...on the other.  It is important to keep in mind that NLI offers are not 100% clinches either until the NLI is signed in mid-Nov, but when players are offered NLIs and they accept, they are recorded as "commits".

 

I know this probably did not answer all your questions, so go ahead and ask follow-ups. I am sure that Fenway, and I, and others would be happy to try to fill in the blanks and caveats.

That definitely answered my question. However, I guess the tougher question is how does a recruit handle an offer from a D1 school not real high on list, when he may have to wait 6 months or more for his or her more desirable Ivy/Patriot/NESCAC choices. What is said to that D1 coach to possibly preserve that opportunity in case the more desirable  academic choice schools fall through, or at that point will it be too late for that more traditional mid level D1 school.

The early NLI signing period is usually the second week in November. High academic schools that give likely letters know this and they usually send them out shortly before this. The high academic schools that do not give likely letters can point to recent experiences with their recruits, but they can not give you 99% comfort level until the Early Admission/Early Decision results come out in mid-Dec.

 

You can be honest and express sincere interest in the D-1 up until the early signing period. But once they mail you the NLI, it is fish or cut bait time....and if you do not have a likely letter..and all you have is a promise from a high academic school coach to support the player's application at Admissions.... it is time to break out the Rolaids.

 

Personal soul-searching has to be done if the player "commits" to a D-1 prior to the early signing period....bird in the hand....while deep in his heart he would prefer to go to a high-academic non-scholarship school...bird in the bush.

 

Is it unethical or otherwise improper to lead on the D1 coach if the intent all along is to go to the high academic....and take away a slot from the kid who was next on the D1's list? I don't know. Gotta take care of yourself I guess, because everyone else is, would be one response.

 

But regardless, it is the risk of non-admission to the high academic school that would drive you to the Rolaids.

 

The recruit either accepts the offer, declines the offer or requests an extension.  There are no easy answers here, and every situation is different.  If you tell a traditional D1 coach that you are being recruited by one of these academic schools, he'll know their timetable & their process.   I'd be very honest with your intentions.

 

Green Light mentioned the "gut-wrenching part" in his post.  In my experience, your question is one of those "gut-wrenching parts" with academic recruiting in Ivy/patriot/nescac.   For some true D1 caliber players who also possess the necessary academics it can be a very difficult choice to make.....declining an offer for something you think you may get in the future.     

 

There are a handful of posters I've personally corresponded with over the years who had a real difficult time with this...they had D1 offers in hand and interest from Ivys/Patriot League schools at a specific point in time.  The traditional D1 recruiting/offer timetables didn't overlap with Ivy/Patriot and D3 offer timetable .   However, some of them are now at Stanford, Yale, Columbia, Princeton and Cornell.   I think their decisions were personal ones, but I also think they knew what they really wanted.   In addition, they truly understood their skill sets relative to others, and the overall admissions risks/rewards. 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks very much for that insight. Always great responses and extremely helpful.

The only additional point that I can add to this discussion is that, in general, science and engineering majors are not compatible with most competitive D1 programs. Had I known this before I went through the recruiting cycle with my son we probably would have taken a different approach. Also you have to be aware that an NLI will get you into a school but not into a major, for a lot of schools you have to apply and be accepted into a program within the school. Just something to think about. 

 

Offers are a good problem to have!

 

Good luck.

 

 

That's very good information and definitely something to think about.  Sounds like there is no right or wrong way to approach, but just to evaluate all considerations and make an informed decision. 

It definitely helps if your player has determined that he is looking for high academic options when these situations present themselves and I don't believe the player needs to wait until fall of senior year. Our son was actively pursued by a top D3 academic program over the spring/summer with an early read in July. (99%). He also gave his info to a couple patriot league schools in July and ended up committing to a patriot league in mid August.  As with other timelines, I think these ones might be creeping earlier as well. Taking SATs and subject tests early make the coaches job easier in getting the early reads.

Thanks very much for that information.  How was your son exposed to those schools: college prospect camp, Head First, other showcase events?  Thank you.

Exactly.  I mentioned this to another poster just today.    Just as elite D1 recruiting timelines are creeping up, there is also a trend with academic schools to recruit more aggressively with kids with an established academic performance and SATs under their belts.   Good call Rally Cap and congrats to your son!

Kevkev29 he did a demarini Top 96 and a Perfect game along with camps at a few D1 schools he really cared about (plus emails and visits). I think the clincher for him was making a top travel team in our region with a great reputation. This was a team coaches came to watch. He is an infielder, not a pitcher which can be more challenging.
Thanks Fenway. He is very excited!

That's great. Congrats and thanks again for sharing that.

I have been off the boards for a few weeks. This post hits home in son's case . As our oldest had this same scenario play out in the recent past.

 

As Fenway mentioned if the player has true aspirations to play for an Ivy or another program that is much later to the table with their offers you must know or try to determine what the realistic chance is of getting an offer for your desired school.

 

Our boy had some solid offers in hand and had to pass as deadlines from those coaches came and passed. He passed since he/we felt quite certain that he was on track academically and athletically for the type of school where he wanted to land. We received  outstanding advice and info from Fenway along the way!

 

Taking the SATs as early as possible and getting those results as well as transcripts to your desired schools RC asap gave him the confidence that he was in good shape from that end. Reach out(your son) now to schools of choice coaches to see if they have seen him play etc, and where he may stand in terms of what they are looking for. Try to get as good of a read as possible as to the liklihood of getting an offer from your school's of interest.

 

It can be gut wrenching passing on offers when you wait out the process.As Fenway said it can be a difficult time. Just try to be as realistic as possible,as to, will he qualify academically and is he what the coach wants baseball wise at your school of choice.

 

Congrats Rally to your son and best of luck Kev. Feel free to PM if you have any specific questions.

My son, who is currently a college senior, had the same situation as well. He had several offers from academic D1's and interest from 2 different Ivy League schools. In his case he went the opposite way from your son. He definitely was on the lower end of the scale, and although the coaches emphasized they had been able to get similar players into their schools, the offer he accepted was just to good to pass up, with the chance that he might not eventually get in either Ivy League school. Thankfully he is exactly were he should be and doing fine. 

I sent Kev a PM, but thought it was worth making a post publicly in the event that someone else interested in some of those schools stumbles upon this thread….

 

Next summer we will be SEEING a ton of schools from the Ivy (5 schools), Patriot (4 schools), NESCAC (5 schools) & Centennial (8 schools) Leagues on our 2 High Academic College Bus Tours.  Plus some high academic schools in other conferences.

 

The details & itineraries are here… http://www.playinschool.com/bus_tour

 

And as for a response to the OP, all of the posts above are on point.  But not sure I saw any mention of what I would describe as a "trickle down" effect.  The best of the best get first choice.  Then the next group down, etc, etc.  Many of the schools in these conferences simply do not fall into the category of "best of the best" from an athletic stand point.  So they tend to not be on a super accelerated recruiting schedule the way a South Carolina, UCLA or Virginia.  There are quality teams in those conferences, but none that would be year in year out powers.

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

 

 

When you say, "Take the SAT as early as possible," what do you mean?  I think it is normally taken spring of junior year.

Agree that it is normally taken spring of junior year. Taking it earlier(fall/winter junior year) allows you to find out if you are in the ballpark score wise to consider an Ivy as a legit possibility.It can be even more helpful if you have other offers with decision deadlines on the table. When communicating with coaches you are more likely to get a coach to take a look or respond if your have already taken the SAT and have a score that is in the acceptable range. Also studies show scores will increase on the 2nd or 3rd attempt. It did in our sons case. So taking it now/winter and in the spring is not a bad idea.

Summer after junior year is extremely busy for players on a travel team. Our son took SATs starting fall of junior year and wrapped it up by June of junior year. The first test was done "cold".  He had a reality check and worked to get himself in the high academic/ Ivy range. Subject tests are required at many of the top academic schools and are not offered as often as SATs and often require extra prep.

You can take the SAT whenever you want.  Our eldest did it in 8th grade, which I thought was way too early.   But it turned out to be a good call, as he did pretty poorly on it, so he tried the ACT in 9th grade, and did very well on that. He did even better the 2nd time as a soph, and he's currently prepping for his third try as a Jr.  He feels that just one or two or more points will really pay off come admission time.   Our 2017 will take both for the first time this spring.

JDFarmer,

 

My son took the ACT for the first time in February of his Junior year.He scored well but would have been a borderline admit to the high academic schools.He took the test again in early June and scored high enough to qualify for any school.

 

I would encourage your son to finish up his testing by the end of his Junior year.His senior year will be full of AP classes,fall ball,tournaments,football/basketball games,homecoming,volunteer work,and everything else that goes with the last year of high school.My son is very happy he did not have to worry about ACT testing this year.

 

Good luck !

 

 

 

In summary, I think what everybody is saying is this is not a normal situation, and possibly you can gain an advantage by taking SAT/ACT earlier.  I'd like to suggest Fall of junior year if your son is ready.  The point to be driven home here is impress the academic coaches with your baseball, and demonstrate you have the grades and academics taken care of.  This can give you an edge, and any edge is a good thing in whatever option (D1, Ivy, Patriot, NESCAC) you decide.  But ultimately it will be your baseball skills that determine the baseball level, and you academics will determine the academic level.   Combining baseball and academics can open some doors that aren't available to everyone..

 

It used to be normal that D1 guys didn't sign sophomore year!

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

I hope nobody reads that as a recommendation to take the SAT/ACT sophomore year.

 

I am familiar with a situation like that. In that situation Critical Reading in particular started very low compared with the final take in Senior year. Taking the exam in sophomore year almost begs a three-take because you don't want to be showing the soph scores (typically this is the case..... I know there is probably a parent out there whose kid got a 2400 sophomore year). So you take it again junior year to get a better record to give coaches....and likely once more to see if you can pass muster for an academically selective school...if that is the objective.

 

Problem with this is that some academically selective schools kinda look funny at 3-takes with the idea that the student may be a score-chaser. Admissions officers I have heard uniformly suggest no more than one re-take, unless there are some kind of extenuating circumstances.

 

Also, the schools that are offering to sophomores are not the academically selective schools. They tend to be the powers...and to the best of my knowledge are making these offers without reference to SAT/ACT.

1) Generally, a player who has an early D1 baseball offer will have several options at the higher academic schools you mentioned, IF he also demonstrates very high academic performance. If he knows what his top few schools are, he probably should try to figure out where he stands on their recruiting lists before turning down good offers. I know the elite academic schools can't make official early offers, but many coaches know who they want by then and will tell your son if he is one of their top guys (If they haven't seen him play yet, ignore the last part).

2) Even if the early offer is not a top choice, your son owes it to himself to keep an open mind and find out as much about the school and program as possible. If nothing else, he will figure what out he wants or doesn't want from his college experience and he will gain valuable experience interacting with coaches, players, academic advisers, etc.

3) If, after gathering all the info, the school and program are still not what he wants, IMHO you can "let it go" and feel okay about it. Son was very clear in communicating to the coaches that he was saying no to the academic part of the school, NOT to the baseball part, since he really felt like he could have been happy in any number of schools' baseball programs.

 

 I know this is not necessarily a popular term on this site, but I am a firm believer in the "broken leg test;" I know too many kids who went somewhere purely for athletics and ended up transferring (or dropping out) when the athletic part didn't work out as they expected.

 

It IS hard waiting (and waiting, and waiting, and waiting...)

 

Green Light - Can you state sources for the "3-take" comment?  And isn't every baseball prospect an "extenuating circumstance" being that there will only be 30 on a campus?  Athletes DO get help in admissions.  Even at academic schools.  Trust me.  I would know.

 

Out of the very small group of schools that are offering 9th & 10th graders, I think saying that they "are not the academically selective schools" might be a pretty big stretch… UVA, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, UNC all happen to be in that small group of early offerers & top academic.  

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

 

2016 catcher from OH recently gave a verbal commitment to Vanderbilt.

 

 

Yes.

 

Yale. Brown. Princeton. MIT. I have heard reps from all these schools advise applicants that taking the same standardized test more than twice has diminishing returns and is not encouraged.

 

Can you state who has said 3-peats are encouraged...and let the parents out there decide how they would like to advise their kids

 

By academically selective I was referering to NESCAC, Patriot, Ivy...consistent with the thread. I am standing by my comments. Yes, the schools you mentioned, plus Stanford and some others not in Ivy, Patriot, NESCAC are all excellent athletic scholarship schools.

As far as I know, students decide which sets of scores to submit. Those schools will only see 1 set if that is all they submit, even I they took the SAT 4 times.

That varies school by school. For example, Yale requires all scores to be submitted. And if a school offers Score Choice and a student takes advantage of this to report component scores from multiple tests, the school will see how many times the test was taken.

 

Bottom line: check each school's policy.

This is from the College Board site:

 

Here are some general points about score change that may help you advise your students.

• 55 percent of juniors taking the test improved their scores as seniors.
• 35 percent had score drops.
• 10 percent had no change.
• The higher a student's scores as a junior, the more likely that student's subsequent scores will drop.
• The lower the initial scores, the more likely the scores will go up.
• On average, juniors repeating the SAT as seniors improved their combined critical reading, mathematics, and writing scores by approximately 40 points.
• About 1 in 25 gained 100 or more points on critical reading or mathematics, and about 1 in 90 lost 100 or more points.

http://professionals.collegebo...soning/scores/retake

 

There is a debate going on in another thread about the utility of "odds" or whether kids even should be made aware of the odds. But here they are, for what it's worth. If a kid does well enough first time at SAT to be in the mix for Ivy, NESCAC, Patriot (the higher the scores as a junior) the more likely the score will drop!

 

Taking the test twice is usually not a big risk and can be productive....unless there is a great first score. Taking it 3 times...for Ivy, NESCAC type schools...absent extenuating circumstances such as illness.....is something I would not recommend.

 

Here is another chart showing score gains from junior to senior year. For the highest level scores (the stats you would expect for Ivy-NESCAC wannabes) the average increase in reading was -5 and for Math was 2.  But your kid could be the one to bust these trends, take this as information, not a directive.

 

http://media.collegeboard.com/...e-Gain-Loss-2013.pdf

Good info GL.  Thanks for sharing.

Interesting.  I was always under the impression that even if you sent them particular scores from a given sitting, the college board would still send everything, or at least give access to other scores.  I did not know you could limit that.  That may be what college board labels as "score choice."

Correct. But you gotta figure out your strategy from the start. If you send all the scores from the first sitting and then decide to go "Score Choice", well all your original scores are already in. Even in these circumstances, though, the Score Choice (or "superscore") schools promise that they will only take into account the highest scores in each section.

 

And then you gotta watch out for the schools like Yale that require all scores to be sent

Great advice. 

An observer here. 2014 son (and mom & dad) went on visit to D3 and was told by HC that the visit was an offer.   After a week of thinking, son decided to commit to said D3.  Sent an email to recruiter and head coach and both replied with "that's great, congrats, look forward to.....etc.".   Son called and spoke to recruiter the following week about next steps.  Son has already been accepted to the school and communicated that.  

 

Green Light,  your statement above seems to imply that once accepted to the school, another "layer" of commitment can/will/maybe not take place.  is that what you were saying?  Just want to make sure we are doing everything right as this is our first rodeo.

 

Thanks

If your son has been accepted by the Admissions Office there is no reason to be concerned.

 

The context for my comments that you quoted was Ivy/high academic D3 schools where neither athletic scholarships (all of them) nor likely letters (some of them) are involved. These schools do not do rolling admissions either. They have Early Action/Decision results that come out in mid-December and Regular Decision results that come out in March-April.

 

For these schools, coach can not give 100% guarantees until the Admissions Office acts. In your case the Admissions Office has acted.

thanks,  in our instance, he was accepted in "early action/decision" and committed to the coaches about a week prior to having that knowledge.  Thanks again!

I am not so sure three cracks at the SAT for an ivy athlete is frowned upon? Our player visited with 4 different Ivy coaches(during his recruitment)after he had taken the SAT once. We asked about taking  it  again for a 2nd and 3rd time. Not one coach said it not a good idea in fact he was encouraged to take  it again. One coach did say re: "taking it a 4 th time you probably wont see your scores go up but it wont count against you".That was our case. Perhaps for non athletes seeking acceptance it is frowned upon? Three times was a charm in sons case just saying fwiw. For anyone concerned just ask the coach that is recruiting you their position on this.

Going back to a previous post suggesting trying to find out from the recruiting assistant or coach where you are on their priority of recruits, etc., wouldn't a player/parent have a really good idea where they stand by now in the case of a 2015 without having to ask or is that generally not the case? We are new to this. I know there are rules regarding communication, phone calls, etc, but if one is attending the appropriate camps, winter clinics, etc., wouldn't a coach want to let a recruit know by now how high they were on him, especially to make him think twice about accepting another offer from another D1 school who was in a position to make an offer. Or, could it really be that one is indeed on several Ivy/Patriot/NESCAC lists and potentially high on the list, but it really hasn't been communicated as of this time for a 2015 by a coach to that player.  Just trying to make sense of it all. Maybe some can share stories supporting either scenario.