Edgar

It will be interesting to see what happens with HOF elections now that the bar has been lowered to The Baines Line. There are several players from his era with similar numbers who are not in the HOF.

RJM posted:

It will be interesting to see what happens with HOF elections now that the bar has been lowered to The Baines Line. There are several players from his era with similar numbers who are not in the HOF.

Baines was veteran's committee, wasn't he? Usually the normal voters aren't putting guys in as easily.

He was, well the new version on the Veteran's committee.  The latter was split into 4 committees, based on era...opens the door for Dale Murphy and Crime Dog, but their voting won't come up until 2021.

Wish Donny Baseball had a couple more quality years, just not enough...

RJM posted:

It will be interesting to see what happens with HOF elections now that the bar has been lowered to The Baines Line. There are several players from his era with similar numbers who are not in the HOF.

It's the Tony LaRussa line.  Or whoever on the veterans committee is awake and sober that day.

People like things or people that they can describe with superlatives, as in "the greatest closer of all time".

Even as a dyed-in-the-wool Yankee hater I think Rivera deserves to be the first ever HOF member to be elected unanimously. 

Harold Baines WAR 38.7 384 HR 1628 RBI .289, .356, .465, .820 

Dwight Evans WAR 67.1 385 HR 1384 RBI .272, .370, .470, .840 6 Gold Gloves

RJM posted:

Harold Baines WAR 38.7 384 HR 1628 RBI .289, .356, .465, .820 

Dwight Evans WAR 67.1 385 HR 1384 RBI .272, .370, .470, .840 6 Gold Gloves

Lance Berkman

Unpopular opinion, but I think passing on a borderline player is better than voting them in. What I like about the baseball HOF is how exclusive it is. Some great players who were the faces of their franchise for a while not getting in just proves how elite that group really is. In the NFL and NBA it seems like everybody gets in

PABaseball posted:

Unpopular opinion, but I think passing on a borderline player is better than voting them in. What I like about the baseball HOF is how exclusive it is. Some great players who were the faces of their franchise for a while not getting in just proves how elite that group really is. In the NFL and NBA it seems like everybody gets in

Issue right now is that the writers are split on the Steroids or most likely did Steroids guys.  This splits all the votes.  It has for years. Put them in.  The games happened.  If they failed a test, put it on their plaque.  Then the ballot will "unclog".  And deserving guys will get in.

And don't whataboutpeterose me.  He's ineligible.  And I don't care if he's in or out.

Edgar in and Mariano is unanimous.  With Halliday and Mussina as well, this is a pretty good year for the HOF I think.

If you want to argue that Cobb, Ruth or others were better baseball players, I respect your opinion and understand your reasoning.  But can we agree that no one was ever more of a class act than Mariano Rivera?  I can't imagine a better man to point out to a young baseball player and say "that is how a man should behave on and off the field."

Go44dad posted:

RJM posted:

It will be interesting to see what happens with HOF elections now that the bar has been lowered to The Baines Line. There are several players from his era with similar numbers who are not in the HOF.

It's the Tony LaRussa line.  Or whoever on the veterans committee is awake and sober that day.

Baines is a obvious mistake, almost every writer sees it like that. He seems to have gotten a gift by some friends in the vc.

PABaseball posted:

Unpopular opinion, but I think passing on a borderline player is better than voting them in. What I like about the baseball HOF is how exclusive it is. Some great players who were the faces of their franchise for a while not getting in just proves how elite that group really is. In the NFL and NBA it seems like everybody gets in

I don't think that's a particularly unpopular opinion.

I don’t believe in keeping the PED users out of the HOF. Greenies are PED’s. They were swallowed up like candy for years.

The only way to keep PED users out of the HOF is wipe out all their stats and have their teams forfeit all their wins. Since this is absurd let them in. 

Surprised Mario was the first unanimous. He pitched in the "steroids era" which kept some voters from anyone who played in the era. Once Ripken, then Maddux weren't unanimous, I didn't expect to see one. Jeter is up next-- he'll probably be the second. We've seen some critiques of Maddux in another thread. Mario was the best (RP) of his position. But #8 of the O's...c'mon! He changed the SS position.

RJM posted:

I don’t believe in keeping the PED users out of the HOF. Greenies are PED’s. They were swallowed up like candy for years.

The only way to keep PED users out of the HOF is wipe out all their stats and have their teams forfeit all their wins. Since this is absurd let them in. 

I agree with you...the only problem is how to adjust for those candidates who (probably) didn't take them.  Fred McGriff, for example.

I am not a steroid guy...that being said the testing was incomplete. Does anyone believe all the users were known? Is there any doubt that as many pitchers were using as hitters? We all know that MLB was aware and complicit about the entire process across the board during that era. 

Mussina was suspended for HGH at one point wasn't he I am almost certain got a long one? Why does he get an exclusion but Clemons, Bonds and others don't? 

Chico Escuela posted:

 But can we agree that no one was ever more of a class act than Mariano Rivera?  

I will only give you a push with Chase Utley, he was also legendary in doing things the right way. 

old_school posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

 But can we agree that no one was ever more of a class act than Mariano Rivera?  

I will only give you a push with Chase Utley, he was also legendary in doing things the right way. 

Utley played hard and worked hard, for sure.  He did get suspended two postseason games for breaking Tejada's leg with a questionable slide... (I'm not saying it was a dirty play--if there had been no injury, it's hard to imagine a suspension being imposed.)  And there were at least two incidents of using the f-word in public--into a microphone in the case of the Phils World Series celebration.  

IMO, Utley is the kind of player you suggest to your kid as a role model when it comes to effort and intensity on the field.  Off the field?  The incidents above certainly aren't enough to condemn the man.  But I don't know if I'd put him in Rivera's league.

old_school posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

 But can we agree that no one was ever more of a class act than Mariano Rivera?  

I will only give you a push with Chase Utley, he was also legendary in doing things the right way. 

Mets fans might disagree. But my son saw him as a role model.

Chico Escuela posted

 

Utley played hard and worked hard, for sure.  He did get suspended two postseason games for breaking Tejada's leg with a questionable slide... (I'm not saying it was a dirty play--if there had been no injury, it's hard to imagine a suspension being imposed.)  And there were at least two incidents of using the f-word in public--into a microphone in the case of the Phils World Series celebration.  

The F bomb at the World Series parade / ceremony was epic, it brought down the house...it did nothing but endear him to the public. My mother wasn't even upset about it and she damn near killed me more then once for using words she didn't approve of when I was a kid.

old_school posted:

Chico Escuela posted

 

The F bomb at the World Series parade / ceremony was epic, it brought down the house...it did nothing but endear him to the public. My mother wasn't even upset about it and she damn near killed me more then once for using words she didn't approve of when I was a kid.

When it happened, I remember thinking "yeah, I definitely can imagine getting caught up in the moment as a World Series champ attending a parade in my honor."  So, I'm not trying to argue Utley is Public Enemy No. 1 or that he should lie awake at night consumed with regret, or even that I'd have done things differently if I were in that position.  But at the time he was almost 30 years old, an MLB veteran--a public figure at an open mic in a place where he had to know young kids were present... 

On the other hand, I can't imagine Rivera making that kind of slip.  Which, for me, just highlights the preternatural dignity with which the man carried himself.  I don't think it's a slight to Utley to say he didn't reach the same level.

There's a legitimate debate in this thread about whether long careered Berkman (52.1 WAR), Martinez (65.5 WAR), and D. Evans (67.1 WAR) should be in the Hall, and we've got a 27 year-old Mike Trout currently sitting at 64.7 WAR.  Makes you really shake your head about unbelievable that guy is.  The comp is Willie Mays through 7 seasons, and that throws out Mays' 1951 full season, and shortened 52 season from the calculation.  I'd personally like to see the Hall stay "elite".

like2rake posted:

There's a legitimate debate in this thread about whether long careered Berkman (52.1 WAR), Martinez (65.5 WAR), and D. Evans (67.1 WAR) should be in the Hall, and we've got a 27 year-old Mike Trout currently sitting at 64.7 WAR.  Makes you really shake your head about unbelievable that guy is.  The comp is Willie Mays through 7 seasons, and that throws out Mays' 1951 full season, and shortened 52 season from the calculation.  I'd personally like to see the Hall stay "elite".

Only 23 people in the HOF have a higher OPS than Berkman.  Not Aaron, not Mays, not F Robinson.

I don't think he is a HOF'er, but to be one and done with 1% of the vote is ridiculous.  He deserved the conversation.

In case anyone thinks there’s an all time great missing his career WAR is 78.1 ... Joe DiMaggio

like2rake posted:

There's a legitimate debate in this thread about whether long careered Berkman (52.1 WAR), Martinez (65.5 WAR), and D. Evans (67.1 WAR) should be in the Hall, and we've got a 27 year-old Mike Trout currently sitting at 64.7 WAR.  Makes you really shake your head about unbelievable that guy is.  The comp is Willie Mays through 7 seasons, and that throws out Mays' 1951 full season, and shortened 52 season from the calculation.  I'd personally like to see the Hall stay "elite".

Yeah, there are very few people in sport that you watch and that you know are among the greatest ever. Trout is quietly one of those guys,  similar to Mantle and Mays. I grew up watching a lot of Andre Dawson, and he was a GREAT CF'er, whose stats and body were unduly affected by the abomination of a stadium that he played in for the majority of his career, but even he is a cut or two below Trout.