Elbow Problems?

First - go to another doctor and get a second opinion. I'm probably going to show my ignorance here but I've never heard of that Dr you mentioned. I hope he's a great one but there sounds like a problem is in the elbow that needs fixed. Hopefully I'm wrong but you will be much better off going to another doctor for another opinion. Elbow problems are nothing to mess around with.

Second - hard to really say about his mechanics without seeing them. If you could post a video that would probably help out a lot.

Third - how well does his high school coaches know pitching? If they have good knowledge then hopefully they are working on fixing his mechanics to stop the pain. If they don't know anything then find a good private coach that knows what he's talking about.

Fourth - no offense but if this Dr. you mentioned said he has perfect mechanics then why is he having elbow problems? Obviously no matter how good your mechanics are there can still be problems.

Fifth - I think I understand what you are talking about when you mention the hyperextending the elbow. If he was truly doing that then he's got HUGE problems but probably what is happening (and this is a guess without seeing it) he's probably opening his front side too quickly which makes his arm late. This sometimes causes the elbow to come through earlier than the rest of the arm. That leads to the pain / stress usually.

Hopefully I'm absolutely wrong about all this and it's just growing pains he will get out of with nothing serious. But please get him to another doctor to double check what the first one said. You don't want your son to go through elbow problems and the rehab associated with it.

Best of luck and keep us posted as to how he's doing.

Valgus Extension Overload. That's what it sounds like to me. But I have to agree with coach2709; find another healthcare professional to take a look. An athletic trainer, physical therapist, another orthopedic physician, etc.

quote:

I'm probably going to show my ignorance here but I've never heard of that Dr you mentioned.

No ignorance there. He doesn't appear to be a physician. Type the name into google...

There is a kid on our team who throws hard and he complains of elbow pain quite often. The video I have of him shows that he opens up early and his forearm is bent back for quite some time as he drags it through to release. he also shows to be leading with the elbow more than usual. Some of the pictures taken of him in his ****-phase look abnormal- looks like his arm is gonna twist off at the elbow joint.

Son had same problem at 16, throwing in mid-80's range. Tall and skinny. Initial PT did not help. Referred to name ortho for nerve evaluation and problem turned out to be lack of strength in deceleration muscles, causing hyper extension with each pitch. PT focused on bicep, shoulder and upper back solved the problem.

Sorry 20dad but I've never heard of him. I don't mean that as a disrespect because he probably knows his stuff.

coach, no reason you should have heard of him.he is a very interesting guy,really captures your attention. mostly known up in these parts.

i know you meant no disrespect, my attempt at humor.

Actually Dr. Bagonzi is one of the guys I first discovered when trying to learn more about pitching when my son first showed interest in it.

He was one of the first to recognize the power of the Internet in communcations, and was one of the first instructors to understand the use of weighted baseballs in the improvement of velocity. His book "The act of pitching" is one of the books you should have in your library. Class act of a guy and he has to be getting up their in age. Would have liked to meet him, but he is just too far away.

Hsdad66,

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“My 15 year old son”

What is the biological age of your 15 chronologically year old son?

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“complained of elbow soreness at the end of last year”

There are 3 main areas of discomfort in the elbow with the traditional pitching delivery.
On the inside (medial), on the outside (lateral) and at the back (posterior). Which one does he produce?

quote:

“The doctor told him it was tendinitis and that his issue was on each pitch his elbow would hyper-extend thus creating stress on the elbow”

Medical Dr’s always diagnose this area incorrectly!

At the back of the elbow where the pain emanates? right above the elbow is where the triceps tendon attaches to the olecranon process of the Ulna bone. Under this tendon is where with the traditional supinated (thumb up during drive and finish) pitches (supinated curve, cutter fastball, slider) cause the olecranon process of the ulna bone to ballistically crash into the humeral fossa causing trauma then repair deposit that limits your range of motion more and more with every pitch and can never gain back the lengthier range of motion.



What medical Dr’s do not understand is with the traditional pitching motion the triceps that powerfully extend your elbow is not even used (classic disconnection with the kinetic chain kinesiological force tenet) to drive the baseball when it should.

By producing a centripetal (forearm flying outwards centrifuging) traditional pitching motion he uses his peck (instead of the Lats) to drive the ball with the forearm just whipping around with no positive force from the upper arm (Triceps) causing the brachialis (antagonistic to the Triceps) to contract to keep the elbow from ballistically slamming together that it also fails at achieving.

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“It went away for a while with PT, but as the season started after his first outing he noticed the soreness again.”

The only thing that can stop this from happening is a mechanical change!

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“(which by Dr. John Bagonzi were said to be perfect)”

Dr.Bagonzi like all others whom promote and study the traditional pitching motion will never discover that what they teach destroys pitching arms and that no form of the traditional pitching motion will ever keep this and other problems dealing with it from happening but they just keep trying with out any real changes.

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“So how can I fine-tune his mechanics so that he does not hyper-extend his elbow while being able to follow through completely?”

The fix.

Tell your son to learn how to pronate(thumb down drive and finishes)the drive and releases of all his pitches by having his elbow hinge the way it is built with the elbow popping up at finish instead of across his chest and try to finish his arm in line with his now fully rotated shoulders heading towards his ball side hip now fully rotated. Stay taller to rotate faster and elevate his humerus during drive.

yardbird, based on this study A biomechanical comparison of the fastball and curveball in adolescent baseball pitchers

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The findings based on the kinematic and kinetic data in this study suggest that the rising incidence of shoulder and elbow injuries in pitchers may not be caused by the curveball mechanics.

How does that match up with what you are saying?

I'm not responding to any of the Yardbird technobabble but I would say that their findings regarding clinical relevance aren't overly meaningful. Lower moments does not mean that it isn't causing a problem. Further I don't see how they can conclude that the supination difference isn't significant. That really isn't a statistical issue.

There have been other studies that showed a greater incidence of shoulder problems in youth pitchers who threw a lot of curves. That seems to be real. Trying to extrapolate from lower moments to less arm problems is not good science unless backed up by data showing fewer arm problems.

IMO, and that's all it is, throwing too many curves can be a problem especially if it is a power type curve which has similarities to a slider. I do think that most pitchers could throw a lot of soft curves without causing problems other than with fastball development.

Sultanofswat,

This study pertains to a different area of injurious concern with in the shoulder and a different area in the Elbow than what the post was talking about but helpful.

When ASMI said the same thing it incorrectly gave people the wrong impression because
they left this injury out and did not discuss the fact that there is a pronated version of the curve, fastball and Slider making their statements not cover it all and bad science.

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“BACKGROUND: The incidence of shoulder and elbow injuries in adolescent baseball players is rapidly increasing.”

This is due to one thing! Elevated competitions performed by youth pitchers.
All the same supinated pitches were around Long ago and all the same variations in traditional centripetal mechanics. Nothing else is new or has changed.

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“One leading theory about this increase is that breaking pitches (such as the curveball) place increased moments on the dominant arm”

This would only be true if there were no ambidextrous pitchers and the curve is a new invention? This is not the case.

Supinated pitches increase the collision stress at the back of the elbow, this is where the particular injury I discussed is concerned and the study covers curves as a lesser injurious aspect of inwards humeral rotation at drive and Valgus stress at initial forwards force that cause other injurious problems.
Remember it is all supinated pitches that eat at the back of your elbow with this injurious mechanic.

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“HYPOTHESIS: There is no difference in the moments at the shoulder and elbow between fastball and curveball pitches in adolescent baseball pitchers”

Curveballs are less stressful at the shoulder and UCL of the elbow than fastballs, this has long been known but supinated curve (sliders and cutters) balls slam the Ulna and Humerus together more violently than any other pitches, time to learn the pronated versions.

When the discussion among leading kinesiologists finally goes over to the differences between supinated pitches opposed to pronated pitches will these injuries ever disappear.

These don't look like Marshall mechanics. Sure he might be pronating, as most hard throwers do!!! But he is reaching behind the acromonial line, has a big kick and stride, and I see forearm flyout; these are all Marshall no-no's. He also comes across his body more than my son does.

Ps...I love it when glorified PE Teachers and coaches claim to know more than medical doctors. I think that is called practicing medicine without a license in most states.

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My 15 year old son complained of elbow soreness at the end of last year.

HSDad66. I'm not going to try to sway you one way or the other on this mechanics issue. There is more than enough conflicting info out there to wade through and certainly plenty of varying ideas here.

Foremost, as a Dad, I always felt my number 1 job was to protect my son's arm. I feel that way for two reasons. First, I experienced elbow soreness (left-handed pitcher) most of my playing days and had to leave the game for two years (this was before TJ surgery) as it got to where I had to support my arm and couldn't pick it up over my head. And secondly, no one else has the same interest that I (we) have in keeping him healthy!

Let me get to the point; the growth plate in the elbow DOES NOT close until biological 16 years of age! Proven fact, no debate on this one. Too much strain on a growth plate will result in injury, premature closure, and a lesser range of motion. You best limit his competitive baseball pitching until his arm/shoulder is mature. And if he is to remain a pitcher, he needs proper training methods to prepare the ligaments and bones for the stress of pitching competitively.

I been a student and teacher of Martial Arts for over 30 yrs. We practice nearly everyday. You literally throw hundreds of full power rear punches a week, tens of thousands to get the 1st Black Belt level. These are full power to full extension where the elbow locks(just like throwing a baseball). Rule #1 in Karate is to "twist the fist" at impact. Guess why? Most people think it adds force at impact. But no, what is really does is protect the elbow while performing at full speed! Try it for yourself. Hold both arms up with your elbows pointing outward and parallel with your shoulders. Your thumbs should be pointing up. Now powerfully punch forward with all you have. Can you feel the stress on the elbow and doesn't it hurt? Now do it again, but this time twist the arms inward so that the thumb is pointing down at impact. Properly done, you can perform it this way hundreds, even thousands of time and you will NEVER feel any elbow pain (we limit how much kids can train at full speed, however).

You will find that by turning the elbow inward and downward (supinating) that you feel no pain and their is no stress to the elbow joint, hence no injury will occur.

So, to speak to throwing the curveball; most pitchers can't supinate on that pitch, so yea, too early, too much is going to cause elbow issues .. you can take that to the bank!

Listen to Doctors with the same skepticism that you may employ in listening to us here. I've learned in the MA (martial arts) training that you don't want to allow slightly injured (tendonitis) muscles, bones, ligaments to entirely to go unused. You alter training to protect an injury but never allow it to rest completely for long periods of time or the muscle will atrophy.

By the way, my son has never, and I do mean never, had a sore arm. He begins his College Baseball career next Spring.

Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
By the way, my son has never, and I do mean never, had a sore arm. He begins his College Baseball career next Spring.
Good luck!

Prime, mine being a lefty and a junior at the collegiate level now, had never, and I mean never, had a sore arm before. It really doesn't mean much other than he hasn't had a sore arm before. It can change in an instant, believe me.

IMO get to NY and see a dr if you are like a serious baseball guy who sees at least a scholarship in the future. I go to Dr. David Alchek (spelling...) and Dr. Stephen O'Brien. I had Tommy John and flew to Alabama to see Dr. James Andrews and it was made very clear to me how a Dr. can make a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:

I been a student and teacher of Martial Arts for over 30 yrs. We practice nearly everyday. You literally throw hundreds of full power rear punches a week, tens of thousands to get the 1st Black Belt level. These are full power to full extension where the elbow locks(just like throwing a baseball). Rule #1 in Karate is to "twist the fist" at impact. Guess why? Most people think it adds force at impact. But no, what is really does is protect the elbow while performing at full speed! Try it for yourself. Hold both arms up with your elbows pointing outward and parallel with your shoulders. Your thumbs should be pointing up. Now powerfully punch forward with all you have. Can you feel the stress on the elbow and doesn't it hurt? Now do it again, but this time twist the arms inward so that the thumb is pointing down at impact. Properly done, you can perform it this way hundreds, even thousands of time and you will NEVER feel any elbow pain (we limit how much kids can train at full speed, however).

You will find that by turning the elbow inward and downward (supinating) that you feel no pain and their is no stress to the elbow joint, hence no injury will occur.

So, to speak to throwing the curveball; most pitchers can't supinate on that pitch, so yea, too early, too much is going to cause elbow issues .. you can take that to the bank!

Listen to Doctors with the same skepticism that you may employ in listening to us here. I've learned in the MA (martial arts) training that you don't want to allow slightly injured (tendonitis) muscles, bones, ligaments to entirely to go unused. You alter training to protect an injury but never allow it to rest completely for long periods of time or the muscle will atrophy.

By the way, my son has never, and I do mean never, had a sore arm. He begins his College Baseball career next Spring.

Good luck!

The turn of the wrist in a punch is correct. I always thought it was for power. But it is called pronation, meaning your wrist turns in or thumb down. Supination means your wrist turns out or thumb up.

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Originally posted by MTS:
The turn of the wrist in a punch is correct. I always thought it was for power.

Seems like a Sports Science episode covered this. Per the show, the turn produced substantial extra power.

MTS,

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“These don't look like Marshall mechanics”

Even though you visit and read Dr.Marshalls materials through his weekly e-mails, you have gone there as a detractor and disbeliever making anything you say here have little merit concerning these mechanics or injuries! As you learn even with your particular agenda as you have shown by the statement “Sure he might be pronating” that is a perfect example of why he rates high on the MTS scale totals. You cant say, “These don't look like Marshall mechanics” and then take away the main Marshall tenet of pronation of all pitches.

Try a stab at what he is performing more towards Marshalls tenets instead of coming off as mad at something?

Ironocly, this thread is about exactly what Tyler does best to eliminate this particular injury.

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“as most hard throwers do!!!”

More and more are! Most do not! Most fastball cutters, sliders and curves are still supinated and still taught this way by most but things are changing fast as acceptance of this material and testing is performed and brought to competition.

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“But he is reaching behind the acromonial line”

.
This is why he scores lower with the MTS on that mechanical aspect!
Not attaining alignment with the shoulder’s (acromial line) and field driveline (imaginary line between home plate and second base) will lead to poorer performed pronated pitches and possible shoulder to humerus misalignment (lag at initial forwards force) that will produce back side labrum issues and front side muscle issues.

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“has a big kick and stride”

He scores 0 with the MTS on this one and attains no forward’s mass at ball drive because of it. He attains over 100 MPH when throwing full Crow step motion and 98 with a leg lift.

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“I see forearm flyout”

He has less forearm flyout than most and very little on some of his pitches all helped by throwing all pronated pitches accepted his curve that he seldom uses and a very high Humeral vector.

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“these are all Marshall no-no's”

Marshall has critiqued him publicly.
He has a very high MTS scale number compared to other leg(useless)lifters, especially in the elbow injurious tenets.
He transitions at the middle of his rotation, unlike traditional(late transition) and closer to where Marshall wants it at the back (early transition) taking much more stress off the UCL by eliminateing much of the forearm bounce.

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“He also comes across his body more than my son does”

This I would have to see to believe you but since you have been studying Marshall’s materials for a long time now you might be right but I doubt it. Show us another poor quality video of him this time so we can all guess at what is happening.
The key question is does your son bring his humerus along with the shoulder rotation eliminating most of the shoulder stress. Notice how Matzeks Humerus is more in line with his shoulders at finish than traditional although made tougher to perform with his weak leg traditional leg drive. Finishing your Humerus across the pecks cause front side labral problems and backside muscle problems, better to finish with the arm at your back side hip fully pronated.

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“PS: I love it when glorified PE Teachers and coaches claim to know more than medical doctors”

MS: I don’t love it when concerned fathers learn this kinesiological information before M.D.’s then have to let them know, maybe they think they they do not need to know and only need to practice repair like Dr.Andrews.

Dr. Marshall has the credentials to do it and I have found him to be truthful on all accounts with my testing replications of his findings on youth pitchers now for over a decade.

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“I think that is called practicing medicine without a license in most states”

So are you saying the NPA and ASMI should be sued for passing along their particular brand of mechanics that have been destroying youth and adult pitchers for over 20 years now? I think Dr.Marshall would agree here! Put up or shut up!
Until someone does sue for destroying their kid’s chances the same injurious material will still be disseminated to the masses. Hopefully some will at least look into the better more state of the art information for answers.

Prime9,

Great post, most overhead throwing sports get this more right than not, unlike baseball pitchers and catchers whom do not.
More and more Quarterbacks like Manning and Sanchez get it right. Most javelin throwers, Cricket bowlers, badminton smashers, Volleyball smashers, Tennis overhead serves and smashes, outfielders, left side infielders and more.

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“By the way, my son has never, and I do mean never, had a sore arm”

Many injuries like UCL degradation seem to happen suddenly because there is no pain receptors in mid ligament and very few at the insertion to bone if the tear happens there.
If your son has late transition causing forearm bounce this can happen with out warning.

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“He begins his College Baseball career next Spring”

This is when many college coaches will try to get you son to throw the supinated Slider and cutter. Do not let this happen! He can learn to throw the pronated versions of these pitches just as easy and with out the elbow crash.

My son was pronating before Marshall was posting He used long toss to get there. I was hammered and criticized for that. I said a long, long time ago that Marshall's mechanics won't work without a leg kick and hard stride. And here we see nice kick and hard stride. I argued that the foot plant gave a power assist to the hips. Your friends argued that Newton was on their side and yet selectively ignored a couple of Newton's laws. I find that you have seen the light and came to my side and not the other way around.

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Supination means your wrist turns out or thumb up.

Absolutely!! My brain was ahead, no behind of my fingers in typing. Thanks for clarifying & correcting word usage (pronation = thumb down!).

I did not mean to sound arrogant nor brag about my son's luck to date with his arm. I crossed my fingers and knocked on wood before making the statement. I know that "his luck" could change in a heart beat.

The point, however, is to do your homework and do everything that could possibly prevent injury. It's way easier to prevent rather than treat and rehab an injury.

Prevention means understanding what elements in pitching mechanics (different than just throwing) could cause injury, what type of training could condition the bones, ligaments and muscles to withstand pitching, and know that "overuse" is a particular problem with "immature" growth plates (as in the case of a 15yrs. old pitcher).

From my experiences, I hate seeing a player, at any age, suffer from arm issues as I think MANY of them can be prevented (I'm with Marshall on this point).

MTS,

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“My son was pronating before Marshall was posting”

Yet you were not aware he was doing it before 10 yo until Marshall clarified it to you and now you almost fully understand it, this is good for your family, now how about the rest.
When you bad mouth Marshall you just push people away from positive information that can be helpful to them.

How about that video, maybe he is not pronating? Put up. I take it by your statements that you agree with Marshall about pronation of at least one pitch.
I have shown my results for all to see, how about you? Your not afraid of something are you?

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“He used long toss to get there”

Long toss will not teach him voluntary pronation or pronation understanding or axis presentation!
Does he supinate his curve, cutter or Slider? This would be very bad.

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“I was hammered and criticized for that”

I would not criticize you for that at the proper age, I agree with its more powerful crowstep leg drive that forces you to go where Marshall wants you with the glove foot land to initial forwards ball force timing, this is a great way to get in your ballistic portion of your daily training just not the best. Does he long toss his curve?

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“I said a long, long time ago that Marshall's mechanics won't work”

You got it wrong didn’t you ! They actually work, why wouldn’t they!
He even had one of his few full crow step pupils pitch in MiLB AA last year, of course they work.
This would also mean you withheld positive information about what mechanics cause injuries from your son?

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“without a leg kick and hard stride”

But they do, Marshall has proved it with adults and I and many others have replicated his discovery and proved it again with youth pitchers.

Why would you think a walking long toss throw that exactly replicates Marshall full crowstep pitching delivery does not work when your son works it all the time?
Does your son lift his leg to long toss or perform the Jaeger centrifugal imperative Pogo hop or the correct crow hop when long tossing? Does he attain high parabolic arc, not good?

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“And here we see nice kick and hard stride”

And there you see all his forwards motion from his crotch splits drive come to a complete stop by planting the lead leg with the bodies mass still behind this leg before the ball actually move forwards, nothing gained.

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I argued that the foot plant gave a power assist to the hips.

Did your arguments contain a kinesiological explanation as to how this is done or did you just make a blanket non-detailed statement, like every other detractor with no real arguments?
You have gotten this wrong and still do.
Can you give me an explanation as to how this is accomplished?

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“Your friends argued that Newton was on their side and yet selectively ignored a couple of Newton's laws”

So this is why you hold a grudge against a mechanic! Get over it! Getting physics wrong is what people do.

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“I find that you have seen the light and came to my side and not the other way around”

Light always penetrates the dark and by me shinning this light here will ensure that some will try the information and benefit from it, even if I have to wade through childish statements.

I still have fully traditional pitchers and they all injure them selves and produce competition diminishing inflammation, it is there decision to do it the way they want but they all have the information to at least make a choice and to tweak their mechanics towards Marshalls tenets when they start hurting.
I start with fully traditional pitchers at all levels all the time and they all start with pronation of all pitches and ball arrival at the back then we try to get aligned then we try to get the Humerus aligned with the shoulders all the way through the delivery and finish with full rotation made more difficult because we are forced to lift our legs or not be handed the ball.
Only the youth pitchers start with full crowstep mechanics and retain them for several years because they are actually allowed to pitch but when there is a High school try out we must acquiesce with the useless leg lift.

I take it you are one of the people whom would not hand them the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:

quote:

Supination means your wrist turns out or thumb up.

Absolutely!! My brain was ahead, no behind of my fingers in typing. Thanks for clarifying & correcting word usage (pronation = thumb down!).

I did not mean to sound arrogant nor brag about my son's luck to date with his arm. I crossed my fingers and knocked on wood before making the statement. I know that "his luck" could change in a heart beat.

The point, however, is to do your homework and do everything that could possibly prevent injury. It's way easier to prevent rather than treat and rehab an injury.

Prevention means understanding what elements in pitching mechanics (different than just throwing) could cause injury, what type of training could condition the bones, ligaments and muscles to withstand pitching, and know that "overuse" is a particular problem with "immature" growth plates (as in the case of a 15yrs. old pitcher).

From my experiences, I hate seeing a player, at any age, suffer from arm issues as I think MANY of them can be prevented (I'm with Marshall on this point).

Didn't think you were arrogant. I've been in martial arts for many years and always thought the wrist turn was for power and it's what I teach my kids. Glad you straightened me out on that.

Yardbird we don't crow step. We crow hop with conviction... I'm too busy to repost the technical on my argument with your friends...But the short of it is, is that the energy used to stop forward momentum goes somewhere. You can not push the ground, so the energy goes back up the leg through the hips, back, & shoulders. It is called the kinetic chain. Lincecum uses it beautifully.

We didn't need Marshall to learn how to pronate. Hard throwers do it naturally. I have been trying to find a decent clip to post for you. You are going to have to take my word that TM comes across his body a lot more than my son. I have some Youtube but I really can't stand your M-friends.

TM in the gif I posted is a traditional pitcher, period.

He rarely pitches now. In this video he is 16 years old. You can see he does not come across his body with his arm. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st5QK4nTxlI

He did close a couple of weeks ago, pitching 2 innings, K'd 3 with the other three outs coming via two 1-3 slow rollers and a pop-up.

HSDad66 - Check your private messages.

Came across a study the other day, sorry I didn't keep a link to it. The subject of the study was arm problems vs. pitching velocity. Guess what, the pitchers who threw harder had more arm problems. The subjects were all professionals but given the velocities noted in the study I'd guess they were mostly minor league pitchers.

Mechanics stuff is nice but the harder you throw the higher the stress levels and sometimes the mechanics that lend themselves to higher velocities also lend themselves to more injuries and one has to make the choice.

I see the amplification of bad mechanics manifest themselves as velocities increase. I have seen kids who have a little soreness at 12 develop a lot of soreness at 14-15 when their velocity increases. Other kids who have had virtually no soreness at 12 also have no soreness at 14-15. The velocities between both kids being the same up through the years. Studies have been done that state that 80mph is the magic mark when ligament damage mostly occurs. Most serious arm injuries occur when two factors are in place- 1. throwing 80+ mph, 2.throwing when fatigued/ sore.

It really comes down to a timing issue. If the arm is behind then it places a far greater stress over a longer time each pitch. The arm should be in the high co@ck position at front foot plant. If it is not and is still coming up the arm is "behind" and as such the torso will rotate and start the upper body moving forward while the arm is still back. What happens is if the arm is still back after the shoulders have already opened up then there places a tremendous amount of stress on the shoulder and elbow. Those ligaments are being stretched and pulled to great forces. It is like overstretching a rubber band over and over again- at some point the rubber band will begin to tear (soreness in elbow and shoulder joint) and eventually will break!

GBM,
That's a bit of an over generalization. The studies have shown that the "ideal" location of the arm at initial foot contact is at 50 something degrees from horizontal. One study I read which was comparing younger, ~20yo and older ~29yo, professional pitchers showed that both groups were at around 48 +_ 33 degrees at foot contact. So most of them were around 50 degrees and none of them were so early as to be vertical. The 50 something degrees is what ASMI came up with including arm safety as a factor. Vertical at that point is acceptable but right on the edge of being too early. I define initial foot contact as being the moment when the foot is first completely in contact with the ground. (Foot plant is a continuum and there's no way to say exactly when the foot is fully "planted".) On the other hand being horizontal at initial foot contact tends to be good for velocity although it adds to potential for injury as you've noted. Generally speaking most MLB hard throwing pitchers are at around the 50 degrees up from horizontal location at initial foot contact. There are certainly exceptions such as Oswalt and Papelbon who tend to be vertical and exceptions such as Lincecum and Garza who tend to be closer to horizontal. I think Chapman is also somewhere around vertical. Slingers and those who counter-rotate tend to be a bit more vertical from what I've seen but that could just happen to be the clips I've seen. Generally speaking with the exception of some of the counter rotaters, the torso starts to open up immediately after initial foot contact meaning that the arm is not and should not be vertical as the torso begins to rotate.

If the velocity is there then I wouldn't try to get a pitcher to move off vertical. If the velocity isn't there and they are vertical or even earlier then I'd try to get them to be a bit later to get the velocity with the goal of getting them to somewhere around that 50 degrees from horizontal. In the end, what you are trying for is for the pitcher to just get to whatever fully laid back is for them at the point when they are square to the plate. I wouldn't suggest trying to be so late as to be horizontal at initial foot contact unless they wanted to knowingly add to their injury risk to get more velocity.

CADad,

We might be saying the same thing, don't know for sure. What I am getting at is that a thrower who is "late" with the arm will manifest this (see if I can explain it with my lack of technical ability, eh eh)-

After the foot plant and torso rotation happen there is the shoulder and hip separation. After that event, the shoulders then get pulled around coming back to a square position with the hips for at the time of release of the ball. By "late" I am referring to the arm still being back nearer to the high co@ck position at the moment after full hip/shoulder separation and when the shoulders are already coming square to the batter- the moment when the shoulders are coming back square with the hips at release. Don't know if that makes any sense.

My son is one of those who was always a hard thrower, but never really had sorness or issues until he got over 85. I am a believer that when you get over 85, it is putting a lot of pressure on the arm and you better be ready for pitching.

In terms of the other stuff you guys are talking about, here are a couple of pictures of my son. The first one is almost at foot plant, the second is where he releases the ball. To give me perspective, at just prior to foot plant, is his arm too high, too low or good? What degree would you say it is at? Just trying to learn. Thanks.


http://www.centennialknightsba...0images/IMG_2156.JPG
http://www.centennialknightsba...mages/seansmall1.JPG

Too early/vertical in the one just before the foot gets down. I'd call that 85 to 90 degrees. However, don't go making changes based on what somebody says on the internet. Get with a good pitching instructor. Don't forget that there are pitchers who are vertical or even slightly past it at foot contact who throw quite hard so it isn't an absolute. He's already at 85+ so the question becomes if it ain't broke why fix it? Does he tend to hold the ball in the high cocked position for a moment?

I was asked to remove this clip, so I did. Too bad as the numbered frames make it useful.

Look at this clip and see where the arm is at initial foot contact somewhere around frame 71 to 72. That is where most pro pitchers are. Then go back and find where the arm is at a frame equivalent to your son's picture.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Too early/vertical in the one just before the foot gets down. I'd call that 85 to 90 degrees. However, don't go making changes based on what somebody says on the internet. Get with a good pitching instructor. Don't forget that there are pitchers who are vertical or even slightly past it at foot contact who throw quite hard so it isn't an absolute. He's already at 85+ so the question becomes if it ain't broke why fix it?

Yeah, last time he was gunned, about a month ago, he was at 87 as a 16 yr. old sophomore. One of the differences I see with him vs. a lot of other guys, including the one in your video, is that the guy in the video, at hand break, has his front shoulder high, back shoulder low. My son starts more with his front shoulder lower and his back shoulder never really gets tilted back. Here is a picture of an example of what I am talking about.



http://www.centennialknightsba...G_2274%20(Small).JPG

Not sure if it is a good thing or bad thing. His pitching coach is a guy who was a minor league pitching coach for the Red Sox for 4 years and he never had a problem with it. Just curious what you think. I think this is part of what contributes to the vertical arm position earlier than a lot of guys.

Could be. I actually don't like how much the back shoulder gets low in this clip but there are pitchers who do it and are effective so no big deal. The pitcher in this clip is having a very good season so far so who cares if that part of his motion doesn't match my biases? Usually it is pitchers who tend to throw over the top who dip the back shoulder. I don't see that your son comes anywhere close to throwing over the top so I doubt that it matters for him.

If you trust his pitching instructor I wouldn't try to change anything. It looks like he may be a bit of a slinger from a couple of those images and a lot of those guys tend to get the arm up earlier.

You can't tell much from still pictures but my guess is that on one hand your son doesn't have classic mechanics. On the other hand he throws pretty hard and it looks like he probably has nasty movement. I'll take that over classic mechanics.

Yeah, he does get some nasty movement. Run in on the four seam, run in and down with the two seam, good breaking ball and when working, a nasty change that falls off the table.

I'm gonna PM you something. Thanks for the feedback.