It seems like I am continually being asked, and answering, questions about how professional pitchers throw the ball.
As a result I just posted to my site a short document that describes how Roger Clemens actually throws the ball...
- How Roger Clemens (Actually) Throws The Ball
Hopefully this will clear up any misconceptions and provide a framework for discussing the traditional pitching motion.
Chris why don't you show the whole sequence ? you should show where his chest and arm ends up.
Then we almost agree.quote:Cap, the torso and shoulders are moving forward. It is not so much that the hand is moving backward, but rather that the torso and shoulders are going forward and leaving the hand behind.
quote:I still disagree on the arc length. The path is three dimensional curvelinear.
Then we can agree to disagree.
quote:I think that you may be looking at it only in two dimensions.
On the contrary. You’re limiting the movement of the ball to a forward vector during forearm layback using the body’s forward and rotational movement. There’s also a downward arcing action on the hand/ball as the shoulder approaches full external rotation. IMO that all actions on the ball (up until the initiation of internal rotation of the shoulder) are due to a pulling action on the hand via leading the throw with the elbow, thus, whipping the hand around. Internal shoulder rotation is a major component to forearm fly-out…and if the angle of the elbow is maintained at 90 deg (or slightly less) then the forearm will fly out over a greater arc to full arm extension and ball release.
If you believe that the forearm is rotating about a horizontal axis through the upper arm (which I believe that you do), then having the forearm at less than 90 degrees is shortening the radius of the hand's path about the upper arm. Thus a shorter moment arm. Thus less velocity at the hand (omega x r, with omega being the same and r being a smaller value) is lower.
You state your thoughts well, but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
You state your thoughts well, but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
quote:If you believe that the forearm is rotating about a horizontal axis through the upper arm (which I believe that you do), then having the forearm at less than 90 degrees is shortening the radius of the hand's path about the upper arm
No, this is not what I believe. IMO that the forearm is the third segment of a lever arm (shoulder complex, upper arm, the forearm and then the hand), and for the sake of simplicity, lets say the shoulders and upper arm are parts of the same axis. An above the thrower view will illustrate the elbow working as a pivot pin, and the throwing shoulder as a torsion connection for the upper arm. As the shoulder complex and upper arm rotate (together as a straight unit) in the direction of the throw, the torsion shoulder joint allows the upright “L” forearm to lay back and be in a same plane as the rotation of the shoulder tilt. The forearm still maintains the “L” with the upper arm the whole time, thus maintaining the 90 deg angle to the upper arm rod. This means the forearm will need to travel through 90 deg of arc to achieve full extension to forearm fly-out.
You say that by starting with the hand outside the elbow yields a greater arc……NMO.
If the starting “L” is greater than 90 deg to the upper arm, then the same angle will be maintained during forearm layback. An above the thrower view will illustrate the angle formed at the elbow and the upper arm at full forearm layback will be greater than 90 deg, which means there is less arc for the forearm to travel to achieve full extension to forearm fly-out. Less arc translates to less distance the ball can be accelerated during internal rotation of the shoulder to achieve forearm fly-out.
We are going in circles.
If you don't believe that the forearm rotates about the axis defined by the upperarm as the hand goes from behind the body to the release point, then there is no use discussing anything further. And yes, I am aware of the kinetic chain. But the difference we are discussing does not involve the parts of the kinetic chain from the ground up to the shoulders.
And while you are focused on the above the thrower view (e.g., the horizontal plane), the path is curvelinear in three dimensions. You cannot ignore the other dimensions. And even in the view you mention, if in the high L position the angle is greater than 90 degrees, then the ball will be farther from home plate and thus must travel farther to reach the point of release. Hence more time for the force to act upon it.
Again, this seems to just be going in circles (arm circles?). So I think I will end here.
If you don't believe that the forearm rotates about the axis defined by the upperarm as the hand goes from behind the body to the release point, then there is no use discussing anything further. And yes, I am aware of the kinetic chain. But the difference we are discussing does not involve the parts of the kinetic chain from the ground up to the shoulders.
And while you are focused on the above the thrower view (e.g., the horizontal plane), the path is curvelinear in three dimensions. You cannot ignore the other dimensions. And even in the view you mention, if in the high L position the angle is greater than 90 degrees, then the ball will be farther from home plate and thus must travel farther to reach the point of release. Hence more time for the force to act upon it.
Again, this seems to just be going in circles (arm circles?). So I think I will end here.
quote:Again, this seems to just be going in circles (arm circles?). So I think I will end here.
Kind of like the dog chasing his tail
Don't you know that Andrew is saying "What the heck did I say that kicked this off???" 
quote:Chris why don't you show the whole sequence ? you should show where his chest and arm ends up.
Partly because those are the only contiguous frames I could find That were taken during the same pitch from the same angle. I don't want someone accusing me of mixing apples and oranges.
Let me see if I can find a picture, taken from roughly the same angle, that shows him throwing his splitter.
quote:If you believe that the forearm is rotating about a horizontal axis through the upper arm (which I believe that you do), then having the forearm at less than 90 degrees is shortening the radius of the hand's path about the upper arm. Thus a shorter moment arm. Thus less velocity at the hand (omega x r, with omega being the same and r being a smaller value) is lower.
This is theoretically, but not physiologically, possible.
Given how quickly they rotate their shoulders, and then slow that rotation, there is no way that any pitcher could maintain this angle (e.g. elbow bent 45 degrees).
Instead, the centrifugal force of the forearm will cause the elbow to rapidly extend 135 degrees as soon as the shoulders start decelerating.
The only pitcher who comes close to being able to do this is Tim Wakefield (and his elbow still extends). This is because he is a knuckleball pitcher and doesn't throw as hard (or rotate his shoulders as quickly).
See my sequence of how Roger Clemens throws.
This is a good discussion because people are motivated and somewhat knowledgeable and there are models in mind to frame the discussion around as opposed to totally random pieces - like the good old days of christian heresies we have the Marshallites and the N Y M A nites.
Cap_n's external rotation description was pretty good,but remember, before the "forearm goes up"/start of external rotation,the right arm action sequence from handbreak needs to precede this.
When "shoulder rotation" is referred to, it typically means rotation of the arm bone (humerus) in the shoulder socket about its longitudinal (long) axis,either "internal rotation" (primary driver of "rapid acceleration phase" where the 90 degree lever at elbow works well for cusp/reversal/whipping of arm loop) or "external rotation" which is the layback/load motion. Again, about 90 degree bend at elbow is good for finishing formation of arm loop (external rotation/layback finishes after the throwing side scap unloads) and reversing so bodycan do the buggywhipping (N Y M A N model).
It is necessary to get the arm action sequence right.Hodge has the best kinesiological desription.Kinesiological level is an important one for dealing with sequence (N Y M A N "rhythm",not same as "tempo","arm action is king" arm action will trigger overall body motion sequence). The arms need to symmetrically abduct (lift elbow away from side) and INternally rotate to break the hands. If the arms start externally rotating at this point it's all over.(Hodge flaw to avoid: "premature external rotation").
The external rotation phase is also the key to good upper/lower body timing/coordination - the back arm and lead leg should externally rotate at the same time ("mapping") or the leg first by a hair or perhaps better,the back arm lets the lead leg go first.
Scap action needs to be reconciled/blended appropritely as well.
HODGE CUES:
"break hands with elbows up and palms down" or "thumbs pointing down" (which also encourages healthy forearm twist positioning/"pronation" for avoiding later excessive forearm twist to reduce stress to attachment of flexor muscle mass to medial epicondyle-"little league elbow). and
CUE:When the front thigh turns over,THEN the throwing arm comes up (and gets to about 90 degrees of flexion at elbow - often has extended more/gotten straighter at elbow prior to this - before the forward shoulder turn/merrygoround starts).
and another good timing/rhythm/sequence cue:
For good velocity,keep head behind center until the shoulders start their forward turn-then bring the head and the center and the kitchen sink.
These all fit well with the buggywhip/bowarchbow/flatbed/merrygoround/ferriswheel model.
Might want to review that.Hodge in particular explains how the sequence can reduce shoulder and elbow stress.
Cap_n's external rotation description was pretty good,but remember, before the "forearm goes up"/start of external rotation,the right arm action sequence from handbreak needs to precede this.
When "shoulder rotation" is referred to, it typically means rotation of the arm bone (humerus) in the shoulder socket about its longitudinal (long) axis,either "internal rotation" (primary driver of "rapid acceleration phase" where the 90 degree lever at elbow works well for cusp/reversal/whipping of arm loop) or "external rotation" which is the layback/load motion. Again, about 90 degree bend at elbow is good for finishing formation of arm loop (external rotation/layback finishes after the throwing side scap unloads) and reversing so bodycan do the buggywhipping (N Y M A N model).
It is necessary to get the arm action sequence right.Hodge has the best kinesiological desription.Kinesiological level is an important one for dealing with sequence (N Y M A N "rhythm",not same as "tempo","arm action is king" arm action will trigger overall body motion sequence). The arms need to symmetrically abduct (lift elbow away from side) and INternally rotate to break the hands. If the arms start externally rotating at this point it's all over.(Hodge flaw to avoid: "premature external rotation").
The external rotation phase is also the key to good upper/lower body timing/coordination - the back arm and lead leg should externally rotate at the same time ("mapping") or the leg first by a hair or perhaps better,the back arm lets the lead leg go first.
Scap action needs to be reconciled/blended appropritely as well.
HODGE CUES:
"break hands with elbows up and palms down" or "thumbs pointing down" (which also encourages healthy forearm twist positioning/"pronation" for avoiding later excessive forearm twist to reduce stress to attachment of flexor muscle mass to medial epicondyle-"little league elbow). and
CUE:When the front thigh turns over,THEN the throwing arm comes up (and gets to about 90 degrees of flexion at elbow - often has extended more/gotten straighter at elbow prior to this - before the forward shoulder turn/merrygoround starts).
and another good timing/rhythm/sequence cue:
For good velocity,keep head behind center until the shoulders start their forward turn-then bring the head and the center and the kitchen sink.
These all fit well with the buggywhip/bowarchbow/flatbed/merrygoround/ferriswheel model.
Might want to review that.Hodge in particular explains how the sequence can reduce shoulder and elbow stress.
Very nice Tom !
Texan-
Your explanation for having the hand outside the elbow does not allow for an efficient forearm final acceleration phase.
This photo illustrates the hand inside the elbow.
At 90 deg, the forearm becomes a tangent (at the elbow) to the arc of the upper arm and shoulder complex when they rotate.
When the angular rotation velocity of the upper arm and shoulder complex slows down, the forearm becomes the next accelerated lever.
The hand starting 90 deg (or less) to the rotating axis of the upper arm and shoulder complex, will have 90 deg (or more) of additional arc in which to accelerate the forearm to full forearm extension.
Having the hand outside the elbow reduces the accelerating arc of the forearm lever arm. By reducing the accelerating arc, the velocity of the forearm lever arm is required to rely on the slower upper arm and shoulder complex angular rotational velocity. The farther out the hand starts (greater elbow angle) the more the final forearm velocity approaches the angular rotational velocity of the upper arm and shoulder complex.
Your explanation for having the hand outside the elbow does not allow for an efficient forearm final acceleration phase.
This photo illustrates the hand inside the elbow.
At 90 deg, the forearm becomes a tangent (at the elbow) to the arc of the upper arm and shoulder complex when they rotate.
When the angular rotation velocity of the upper arm and shoulder complex slows down, the forearm becomes the next accelerated lever.
The hand starting 90 deg (or less) to the rotating axis of the upper arm and shoulder complex, will have 90 deg (or more) of additional arc in which to accelerate the forearm to full forearm extension.
Having the hand outside the elbow reduces the accelerating arc of the forearm lever arm. By reducing the accelerating arc, the velocity of the forearm lever arm is required to rely on the slower upper arm and shoulder complex angular rotational velocity. The farther out the hand starts (greater elbow angle) the more the final forearm velocity approaches the angular rotational velocity of the upper arm and shoulder complex.
Still chasing that tail, cap?
The picture should make it easy to see that the ball is closer to HP than it would be if the forearm was at 90. That is shortening the arc. Also, the hand is closer to the axis of the forearm, about which axis (if you showed a later photo) it could be seen that the hand would rotate. The hand in your photo is closer to that axis than it would be if the angle was 90 or a little more. Again, omega x r. R is shorter. Velocity will be less.
Tom, I agree with teaching the break "thumbs down" as the start of the arm circle action. The hand break begins as the knee goes down.
The picture should make it easy to see that the ball is closer to HP than it would be if the forearm was at 90. That is shortening the arc. Also, the hand is closer to the axis of the forearm, about which axis (if you showed a later photo) it could be seen that the hand would rotate. The hand in your photo is closer to that axis than it would be if the angle was 90 or a little more. Again, omega x r. R is shorter. Velocity will be less.
Tom, I agree with teaching the break "thumbs down" as the start of the arm circle action. The hand break begins as the knee goes down.
On the contrary.quote:Still chasing that tail, cap?
What is HP?
…I agree. So where does the hand/forearm get its velocity from? Don’t give equations; just tell me what is accelerating the forearm and hand.quote:The hand in your photo is closer to that axis than it would be if the angle was 90 or a little more.
HP is home plate which is the "give away" that he doesn't understand the forearm flyout.
If you reduce the conversation to the rotation of the forearm around the elbow, (probably not the best words), the forearm flyout, clearly an angle of <90 will give you more than an angle of >90.
If you reduce the conversation to the rotation of the forearm around the elbow, (probably not the best words), the forearm flyout, clearly an angle of <90 will give you more than an angle of >90.
I understand the flyout, as you like to call it, Linear. I don't think you understand the absoulute positioning of the hand as it relates to the hand's curvelinear, three dimensional path.
Where does velocity come from?
It starts from the ground up.
The stride action moves the torso to the plate, providing linear velocity.
The hip rotation provides the torso with rotational velocity.
The torso and shoulders likewise provide rotational velocity. They also provide linear velocity.
The upper arm provides some of both as well.
The forearm produces some linear velocity by means of rotating about the upper arm axis (e.g., in a vertical plane). There can also be a degree of rotational velocity in the horizontal plane if the forearm to upper arm angle is a other than 90.
The wrist and fingers provide linear velocity along with imparting spin on the ball. {And can produce different spin orientations via finger pressure, offset forces, supination, pronation, etc. to provide movement).
Enough of 20 questions.
Where does velocity come from?
It starts from the ground up.
The stride action moves the torso to the plate, providing linear velocity.
The hip rotation provides the torso with rotational velocity.
The torso and shoulders likewise provide rotational velocity. They also provide linear velocity.
The upper arm provides some of both as well.
The forearm produces some linear velocity by means of rotating about the upper arm axis (e.g., in a vertical plane). There can also be a degree of rotational velocity in the horizontal plane if the forearm to upper arm angle is a other than 90.
The wrist and fingers provide linear velocity along with imparting spin on the ball. {And can produce different spin orientations via finger pressure, offset forces, supination, pronation, etc. to provide movement).
Enough of 20 questions.
A nice way of saying "uncle" when you don't understand the kinetic chain.
Texan-
We were talking about the shoulders, upper arm and forearm……….I don’t need a dissertation from the ground up. I’m trying to understand exactly what you’re trying to convey.
As well the “vertical plane” is not an absolute. The upper arm axis is dependent on the tilt of the shoulder complex and the elevation of the elbow.
Everything you say leads me to believe that you’re talking about a throwing arm posture at ball release that would look like this….
Shoulders rotate around and stop basically square to HP...shoulders parallel to the ground...upper arm a straight line extension of the shoulders, and the forearm at ~100 deg angle with the upper arm.
Then the major final component to launch the ball would be a forward thrust of the upper torso which would force the hand forward, rotating the hand and forearm around the axis of the upper arm as the shoulder internally rotates. Is this correct?
We were talking about the shoulders, upper arm and forearm……….I don’t need a dissertation from the ground up. I’m trying to understand exactly what you’re trying to convey.
If you understood the “fly-out” then you would understand that ALL rotational throwers utilize the efficiency of accelerating the forearm from a starting position equal to, or slightly less than 90 deg to the upper arm.quote:I understand the flyout,
”Curvelinear, three dimentional path” is an all new term to me…will you elaborate?quote:I don't think you understand the absoulute positioning of the hand as it relates to the hand's curvelinear, three dimensional path.
Not true for rotational throwers. The forearm does not rotate around the axis of the upper arm. The forearm ultimately becomes a straight line extension of the upper arm during forearm fly-out.quote:The forearm produces some linear velocity by means of rotating about the upper arm axis (e.g., in a vertical plane).
As well the “vertical plane” is not an absolute. The upper arm axis is dependent on the tilt of the shoulder complex and the elevation of the elbow.
This is exactly where rotational throwers achieve high velocity using forearm fly-out to ball release.quote:There can also be a degree of rotational velocity in the horizontal plane if the forearm to upper arm angle is a other than 90.
Everything you say leads me to believe that you’re talking about a throwing arm posture at ball release that would look like this….
Shoulders rotate around and stop basically square to HP...shoulders parallel to the ground...upper arm a straight line extension of the shoulders, and the forearm at ~100 deg angle with the upper arm.
Then the major final component to launch the ball would be a forward thrust of the upper torso which would force the hand forward, rotating the hand and forearm around the axis of the upper arm as the shoulder internally rotates. Is this correct?
quote:If you believe that the forearm is rotating about a horizontal axis through the upper arm (which I believe that you do), then having the forearm at less than 90 degrees is shortening the radius of the hand's path about the upper arm. Thus a shorter moment arm. Thus less velocity at the hand (omega x r, with omega being the same and r being a smaller value) is lower.
This sounds more like the arm-path of a catcher if you shorten the radius to less than 90 degrees.
Correct me if you feel I'm wrong>
Shep Wants to Learn
quote:Shoulders rotate around and stop basically square to HP...shoulders parallel to the ground...upper arm a straight line extension of the shoulders, and the forearm at ~100 deg angle with the upper arm.
It is not physiologically possible to maintain the 100 degree angle that you describe.
Instead, the forearm flies out due to the centrifugal force such that the angle is more like 180 degrees.
