Elite schools

By definition in your mind what is an "elite" school

OK, TR, I'll bite. My criteria for a college or university to be classified as an elite school are:

1. A faculty where at least 95% have attained the top degree offered in their field.
2. No TA's. Professors only (even for freshmen).
3. A student to teacher ratio of approx 9-1.
4. A school with a reputation of attracting the best in private business, seeking graduates who have attained high levels of achievement while in school.
5. A school that can offer a complete range of NCAA athletics for their true student/athletes.
6.Access to publishing works; undergraduate access to research in the sciences.
7. An active alumni.
8. A substantial endowment that helps students without the means to be able to gain admittance. I am not talking about student loans.

TR, and what might be your criteria before you'd call a college "elite"?

Did you even review the article referenced by the link, Tom? Uber-liberal NYT headlined the article "Do Elite Colleges Produce the Best-Paid Graduates?" It is not my study. It is not my news article. I simply shared something that I thought was interesting and also pertinent to some people who read these forums.

" attending one relatively elite college (like Harvey Mudd) rather than another (like Harvard) doesn't much affect a student's future income. Rather, it's the student who matters. Hard-working, ambitious students will do well wherever they go "

What good is comparing medians ?

I think the rankings in the PayScale College Salary Report can be a bit misleading for several reasons. For example, the type of education a school specializes in can greatly influence salary. Note what the article states: "In general, engineering schools produced the best starting salaries, and represented eight out of the top 10 schools in starting salary." If you're a left-brain thinker, that's great, but it's not so good for the right-brainers out there. Geography can also come into play. Schools in the northeast or West Coast will naturally have higher starting salaries because salary levels are higher in those regions. Even social connections can have an impact on earnings potential. For example, I doubt that SMU is a superior school academically to Texas A&M and the Univ. of Texas, but its graduates make better salaries. However, the study doesn't take into consideration that SMU students are extremely well-connected socially and most likely get a lot more help in obtaining a high-paying job than someone at A&M or UT.

Back in December, Smart Money magazine ran an interesting piece on college earning power. Here's an excerpt:

quote:

In a new twist on traditional college rankings, SmartMoney took a crack at quantifying the long-term value of a college education. Our goal was to spotlight the relationship between tuition costs and graduates' earning power. Working with consultant PayScale.com, which recently published a groundbreaking survey on alumni salaries, we first looked at what graduates from 50 of the most expensive four-year colleges earn in their early and midcareers. Then we factored in their up-front tuition and fees. The result? A unique "payback" ratio for each school.

In the end, our scorecard may be music to the ears of many state-school admissions deans—not to mention a lot of struggling parents. After all, who would've guessed that Texas A & M, No. 1 in our survey, would deliver a payback more than two and a half times that of Harvard? Or that the state universities of Delaware and Rhode Island would beat out every Ivy in the ranking?

Make sure to read both pages in the following link:

http://www.smartmoney.com/Pers...es-For-Making-Money/

http://www.smartmoney.com/Pers...lleges-that-pay-off/

Did you get your discount ?

" Other private schools, including the Ivies, say that many of their students pay less than the full sticker price we used for tuition, because of grants and scholarships. (True, but public schools also discount their tuition, especially for in-state students.)"

I have found that some of the highest paying jobs are in the financial sector. If you are good at it those salaries look like chump change. The thing is it doesn't matter what college you went to.

I was just happy to see "Aerospace Engineering" at the top of the list! ...but where's "Baseball?"

I'm a big believer that you get out of it what you put into it. A great education can be attained almost anywhere for those who want it.

No surpises here....

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just happy to see "Aerospace Engineering" at the top of the list! ...but where's "Baseball?"

I'm a big believer that you get out of it what you put into it. A great education can be attained almost anywhere for those who want it.

Baseball is anywhere between 10 to 300 times greater than Aerospace Engineering.

NACE’s Summer 2009 Salary Survey report shows that engineering disciplines account for 80% the highest starting salary offers.

This is the $$$ path.

Yep, agree engineering jobs are in the mix right now. But so are jobs in health care industry.

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Baseball is anywhere between 10 to 300 times greater than Aerospace Engineering. Big Grin

You will get no argument, whatsoever, from me on that.

I just looked at a ranking of best paid jobs and health care was near the bottom.
Financial services are where it is at.

Gee, I did not realize that doctors were so low paid.

and by financial services, you mean like mortgage brokers - do you think there is a big need for more of those right now?

Kudos to those who have the brains -- and desire --to be engineers or financial experts or heck, even doctors , but I would absolutely hate for either of my children to pursue something simply because it pays well. I can think of no worse fate than to be stuck in a job you can't stand just because the money's good. Those golden handcuffs can get mighty uncomfortable.

You got that right!

I've got an idea, let's ask all of those Investment Bankers how they like their striped suit tailors?

Financial services include occupations like many of the guys who now wear striped suits did. According to the financial 500 studies financial service companies are rated in the top companies for employee satisfaction. These companies sell all types of insurance, stocks, bonds and other investment instruments.
It is easy to see why they get so greedy. They deal in fortunes if they are good. Not everyone can do it but not everyone can be an engineer, doctor or Lawyer.

Why the need to disparage the financial industry? The percentage of one percent who do the wrong things make the news. No one has come for me or any of my assets. The economy and various careers are cyclical.

Re: Elite schools

Be careful what you ask for. When my daughter was going through the college search process we visited an elite college. In the discussion group we were told this school will strip our kids of all the morals and values they were taught by their parents growing up, and teach them to think for themselves and the world. I immediately stood up and told my daughter the campus visit is over right in front of the group. Other people followed.

No intent to disparage any profession. Anyone who applies their brainpower can study for and pass the professional exams required of any of the above. It is just then a function of how one applies their brainpower to increase earning capacity. Nearly all chose to do so legally, but we all know those never get mentioned. Those who chose the other path do - in every profession.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Re: Elite schools

Be careful what you ask for. When my daughter was going through the college search process we visited an elite college. In the discussion group we were told this school will strip our kids of all the morals and values they were taught by their parents growing up, and teach them to think for themselves and the world. I immediately stood up and told my daughter the campus visit is over right in front of the group. Other people followed.

Colleges and their liberalism practices at it's finest!

Actually, baseball players is probably a whole lot less as not that many continue to pro ball and of those who do, most of their starting salaries are quite low. Most of those who do progress to pro ball don't make the big leagues so the average salary is not going to be very high.

Actually - if we are talking about income levels - the vast majority (Over 85%) of millionaires in the United States are

Drumroll................

Private business owners.

Owners of your local dry cleaners - or deli - or electrical supply companies.

Not athletes - not Investment bankers - not movie stars.

Small business owners. With limited higher education.

Just the facts.

That is a fact. many of those successful private business guys also experience a lot of failure before hitting it big.
The college you graduate from makes a small difference but in the end it is the individual and not the college that matters.
Today every high level job requires you to pass aptitude tests, psych tests, and sat type tests. You also have to be interviewed often several time. One job my son was interviewed for required 6 interviews plus all the tests mentioned. The college you attend may open the door but you have to keep it from hitting you in the back on the way out.
The odds in pro ball are staggering . I can show you profiles of players who went 5-6 years reaching AA and AAA that were suddenly released even though they were doing great. One was MiLB pitcher of the year and he was released. Many waste years and suddenly find themselves out in the cold.

quote:

Today every high level job requires you to pass aptitude tests, psych tests, and sat type tests.

This likely depends on the profession.

As a leading government engineering research organization, we hire some of the smartest people you will ever meet...from MIT, Stanford, Princeton, Cal, Cornell, Purdue, Illinois, Michigan, etc... Many come from elite schools...probably most. Some do not (I would be an example of that, I attended Univ. of Cincinnati for undergrad.).

If you don't have a graduate degree, we will pay for you to get one...at Stanford, Cal, Carnegie Melon or at San Jose State if thats the best fit for you.

We have never, let me repeat, never, had anyone take an aptitude test, psych test or any other type of test. We have never even considered it. And yes, you can forget the 'geek' talk...we have some of the very best 'leaders' I have met anywhere. Our engineers often give briefings at the National Academy of Sciences, the National Science Foundation, meet with Congressmen and their staffers, the administrators of major government agencies...my "mentor" has been to the White House with the President and I've had meetings with the Speaker of the House.

Before we hire you, we talk to your professors, your advisor and anywhere you have worked previously.

We have no problem recruiting the best of the best...wherever they come from. And yes, its what you do after we get you that counts from that point on. But the "hit ratio" from the so-called "elite" schools just seems to pan out better on average. I suppose most people know this deep down inside...which is why we parents work so hard to get our kids there if we can and then later for grad school if thats appropriate.

BTW, I'll just give you my unsolicited opinion...I have found the very best 'private-elite' school for engineers to be Princeton. As for public schools...I'll take an engineer with good grades from Purdue, Illinois or Cal Poly any day of the week.

And there are many others I have no direct experience with.

How can you compare Engineers to grads who haven't been to grad school.
My stance has always been that where you take undergrad matters very little. The tests are given to determine if a grad is suitable for work they are hiring for.
We all know engineers would fail a psychic test.
2 of the 3 jobs my son was offered had psychic testes as well as the others I mentioned. He was also in competition with elite college grads.

quote:

How can you compare Engineers to grads who haven't been to grad school.

If I understand your comment correctly...easily. Its all about potential. And it works well more often than not!

quote:

2 of the 3 jobs...had psychic testes as well as the others I mentioned

I gotta believe this is a typo...otherwise its absolutely hilarious on at least 2 axes. No one is testing to replace the Amazing Kreskin and the other part...well, I'll just leave it alone.

Yes potential in a specific field in a specific discipline.

It is very important that you pick an elite school if you are a grad student.
All the jobs my son had offers from had a training period where he had to go for a period of time. They also wanted him to go for and would pay for his masters. He had to sign a contract and if he left before a certain period of time he would owe back the cost of training. 2 of them were top fortune 500 companies. They don't waste time and money without a reasonable Chance of success.

In my experience - it has been sort of 50/50.

We hired a boatload of grads from the "Top" graduate business schools in the US. Some were very good - some were OK - and some stunk.

We also hired alot of grads from schools that were most definitely not "Top" grad Business shcools.

Again - some were very good - some were OK - and some stunk.

You keep the very good ones - try to develop the ones that were OK - and fire that ones that stink.

Once you are in the mix - nothing but top performance can keep you there.

quote:

Again - some were very good - some were OK - and some stunk.

Thats why these companies use the tests. It minimizes their mistakes.

Bobble,

I wont speak for the world of engineering - or medicine - or anything else I havent been directly involved with.

I do - however - feel comfortable relating my understanding of the Corporate Finance industry.

Having been a corporate officer of one of the largest companies in the world at age 34 - I can say with great confidence that those tests mean squat.

You can find lots of smart young people - at most any undergraduate or graduate school. And lots of good test takers.

The real trick in building a winning team is finding those with emotional intelligence - the ability to adapt and embrace rapid change - and the desire to give 100% and sacrifice every day.

IMO - The tests wont tell you that for Finance people.

These companies seem to think that the tests weed out the probably won't succeed guys. That is a growing trend and they admit the tests aren't fool proof.
I personally find the psych tests scary. They are administered on the Internet and there is a growing reliance on their use.
They claim they can predict honesty as well as likelihood of success.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
These companies seem to think that the tests weed out the probably won't succeed guys. That is a growing trend and they admit the tests aren't fool proof.
I personally find the psych tests scary. They are administered on the Internet and there is a growing reliance on their use.
They claim they can predict honesty as well as likelihood of success.

Actually, the companies I am aware of, are NOT finding the psych tests useful. The trend has been just the opposite, they are eliminating them from many job interview processes.

My sense is that if you graduate in the top 10% of your class, regardless of where you attend school, you will do reasonably to very well. Below the top 10%, I believe that the graduate of the elite school has a much better chance at landing a decent job than other grads.