Error ?

It is a routine play that should have been handled.  From what you've described, yes E-5 if I've got the scorebook.  I'd give him an error if this was high school or above. 

The next time you have a question about stats or scoring, put it in the Statistics & Scorekeeping forum under Skills and Tips. You’ll find you’ll get people who tend to have more expertise in those areas answer.

As for your question, its impossible to tell with so little information because judging hits and errors is really based on observation for the most part. However, from the sound of it, its unlikely many skilled scorers would charge an error on something like that because 1) there was no mechanical misplay, 2) it doesn’t sound as though he could have made the play with “ordinary effort”, and 3) mental mistakes and misjudgments shouldn’t be scored as errors unless some specific rule was violated.

Sounds to me as though the fielder made the judgment that he should leave the ball go.

Not an error in my book. If a ball does not touch a fielder....except for routine grounders that go through the legs.....no error. Routine pop ups that fall untouched between fielders looking at each other are hits, right?

Thanks for the advise as to where to post in the future and I will move this thread. As you can see even with the few replys this is looked at in different ways. The fielder could have easily made an out at 1st and/or 2nd had he just followed through with his original motion. I've seen that play made many times before with no problem by the same and other players.  With "ordinary effort" it would have been an out however the player retreated and even later said" Not sure what I was thinking. I would have had him at first" so here we are: he didn't touch the ball and he made a mental mistake so that renders the play a "should have" but not an error. Just seems that logic is a little hard to digest. Thanks for all the good insight    

I don't think it should be hard to digest. What if a pitcher makes a mental mistake and fails to cover first on a grounder to the first baseman that is fielded cleanly but results in the runner being safe? Error?

No way. Mental mistake and a hit.

Or if, with a runner on second, SS breaks to the bag for a pickoff attempt but the pitcher makes a mental mistake and delivers home. Batter hits a 10-hopper thru the spot the SS vacated. E-1?

You go down a real slippery slope trying to accord errors for mental mistakes. There are errors of omission and errors of commission. In baseball, only errors of commission are recorded in the book.

So are you saying only scorekeepers know the difference between what is and what isn't an error?

I never said that I just thought score keepers could lend their insight. 

Some of the previous posts appears to be based on something other than the rule book. As I read the OP, this is a clear error, based on the bolded section below.  

Contrary to an earlier post, a routine pop-up which is uncaught--even if the ball touches no one--is an error. 

Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter. It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder’s legs or a fly ball falls untouched and, in the scorer’s judgment, the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, the official scorer shall charge such fielder with an error. For example, the official scorer shall charge an infielder with an error when a ground ball passes to either side of such infielder if, in the official scorer’s judgment, a fielder at that position making ordinary effort would have fielded such ground ball and retired a runner. The official scorer shall charge an outfielder with an error if such outfielder allows a fly ball to drop to the ground if, in the official scorer’s judgment, an outfielder at that position making ordinary effort would have caught such fly ball. If a throw is low, wide or high, or strikes the ground, and a runner reaches base who otherwise would have been put out by such throw, the official scorer shall charge the player making the throw with an error.
The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise. A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay—such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance—shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error. The official scorer shall not charge an error if the pitcher fails to cover first base on a play, thereby allowing a batter-runner to reach first base safely. The official scorer shall not charge an error to a fielder who incorrectly throws to the wrong base on a play.
The official scorer shall charge an error to a fielder who causes another fielder to misplay a ball—for example, by knocking the ball out of the other fielder’s glove. On such a play, when the official scorer charges an error to the interfering fielder, the official scorer shall not charge an error to the fielder with whom the other fielder interfered.

It's often difficult to provide all the relevant information with sufficient detail to permit readers to make informed judgments on plays they didn't see in person.

In this case, it sounds like an error because the OP describes a play that should have resulted in an out, but did not result in an out because the fielder did not exert ordinary effort.  

However, additional information could might make me think otherwise.

For example, is it possible the 3B retreated to the base because the shortstop had a play on the ball and the runner on second was slow enough to provide an opportunity for a force out?  That kind of mix-up is more common on the other side of the diamond where first basemen often have limited range and little confidence the pitcher will cover the bag, but it could have happened here, especially if the game is on a 50/70 field.  If the retreat was caused by a mental error or misjudgment of this sort, it could be a hit.

For another example, the OP says it was a slow roller.  Any slow roller to the third baseman creates the possibility of needing more than ordinary effort to retire a batter-runner at first.  The speeds, angles, and distances of the moving parts could affect the answer.   

Also, "ordinary effort" is understood in the context of the skill level of the players.  The age and experience of the players could also affect the answer.  

Therefore, my answer is it is probably an error, but I'd be willing to consider additional information.  

The situation in the previous post that you may have been alluding to was a routine pop up that falls between fielders looking at each other (presumably because no one called it or there was confusion about who called it)

You say the rules say this is an error? On which fielder? The scorer makes a judgment on which fielder should have called it and taken it? If correct this would be something new to me.

EDIT: What about "sun doubles", where the fielder loses a routine fly ball in the sun and it drops? These should be correctly scored as (sun) errors? Maybe just in those cases where the scorer decides that with reasonable effort the fielder could have shielded the sun better or taken a different angle to the ball? Again, this would be new ground for me and grateful to learn.

Never said that and didn’t even remotely mean it! Its just that those who have expertise in certain areas TEND to look in those areas for ways to contribute. Its precisely why all the different forums exist. Should that forum be scrapped?

But as to whether or not only scorekeepers know the difference between a hit and an error, of course not. But who do you believe knows more about the rules of scoring, someone who scores games all the time and continually looks in the rules to make sure of what they do, or someone who only has opinions about it? Heck, I haven’t come across many head coaches at any level who understand the scoring rules as well as the people who keep score for their team. It’s the same for people who THINK they know as much about umpiring as umpires, about coaching as coaches, or even as much about parenting as parents.

IOW, everyone has something to bring to the table and should be allowed to do so, but there are always those who have a higher degree of expertise. All I did was try to lead someone with a question to the area set up for access to those with the most expertise in that area.

What makes a scorekeeper more expertise than anyone else?    There is no way anyone could actually know what transpired without being there, this is one of those vague situations.

BTW, 3FG did a much better job than you, the resident expertise scorekeeper.

JMO

Well TPM, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but for me, I’ll trust an SK with experience who’s familiar with the scoring rules over anyone else, any time, any place, the same way I’d trust an umpire over anyone else. I you think everyone in the game knows the scoring rules because that knowledge is somehow just assimilated, so be it. That may be what you think, but I guarantee you it isn’t true.

If you go back and read my 1^st post in the thread, you’ll see my 1^st comment on the question was that its impossible to make a sound judgment on the little information given in the OP, so I’m assuming you’re say agreeing with me.

As for the job 3FG did, he did a great job of quoting OBR, but honestly a pretty poor job of interpreting the EVERYTHING because he did what most people do with the rules. When they find something that supports what they believe, they stop. But that’s not how it works. The totality of the situation should be taken into account.

Look at the OP closely and you’ll see why one has to be very careful. Nothing against rbhines because he’s obviously not tied to get an answer like this before, but let’s consider his “perspective”. If he was sitting on the 3^rd base side of the field, chances are he had the worst possible perspective to judge whether or not “ordinary effort” would have produced an out. If he was in the optimum spot to tell how hard the ball was hit, he was likely in the worst spot to tell whether or not the fielder could have reached the ball, whether it may have taken a bad bounce or had some kind of weird spin making it harder to judge, whether the fielder may have had to “cover” because the runner(s) were moving, or all kinds of other factors that should be considered.

You seem to have your nose out of joint because I somehow dissed you and the others who look at the General Items forum, and that’s just silly. All I was trying to do was use the forums as they’re set up to the best advantage.

In the OP, it sounds to me like the 3B made a decision that he couldn't get to the ball or decided that it was more important to cover 3rd and retreated to cover the bag with a runner on 2nd.  In my mind, that is a decision, therefore a mental misplay(if he could have gotten to it) and not an error.  Therefore it should be a hit.

I see what 3fingerglove is talking about, but I don't really see the interpretation he is talking about. 

For example, the official scorer shall charge an infielder with an error when a ground ball passes to either side of such infielder if, in the official scorer’s judgment, a fielder at that position making ordinary effort would have fielded such ground ball and retired a runner.

I think this statement is talking about a physical misplay to either side of a player that should have been made with ordinary effort.  I don't think it's relating to whether or not a player decides to not make a play on the ball that is off to the side.  Especially where it may take up to 3 steps to get to the ball - as the OP states.  I do think it is similar to what another poster stated.  Let's say runner on 1st and he breaks for 2nd at 1st movement.  SS goes to cover the bag and batter hits the ball to the unoccupied spot.  Would have been an out, but SS chose to cover 2nd.  It's not an error, it's an unfortunate play - and a hit.

I still say in the case where a fly ball is hit into the outfield and the player makes a bad break on the ball and comes 5 steps in, then has an "oh crap" moment and realized the ball is over his head.  Ordinary effort, if he made the correct read, would have resulted in an out, but a mis-read, or mental mistake, cannot be considered an error.  This situation would be scored a hit.  Stinks for the pitcher, but it is what it is.

Maybe I'm completely off base, but that's the way I see it.

This may get you into trouble, but it sure sounds to me as though you've interpreted things correctly.

This is exactly why the person scoring the play has to be chosen with some care, then given the autonomy to use his judgment as s/he sees fit, but of course within the guidelines of the rules.

IMO, Swampboy's post is excellent, and it covers the OP situation.

Green Light,

The scoring rules partially quoted above say (twice) that a fielder who allows a routine ball to fall to the ground is to be charged with an error. (There are situations in which it may be tactically advantageous for an infielder allow the ball to drop, so that he can play on other runners.)  If two or more players could have made the catch with routine effort, but don't, that doesn't absolve the error.  It may not seem fair to single out one player, but neither is it fair to the pitcher to declare it a hit.  

Regarding "sun balls", in MLB scoring, the official scorer generally will score an error even if the player loses the ball in the lights or the sun.  Conversely, the effect of wind on the difficulty of a play is apparent to the scorekeeper, so uncaught wind blown balls are more likely to considered a hit.

Thanks for this, but it is 100% contrary to my experience. Pop flies that drop between two or more players who appear to be confused about who called it , in my experience, are hits.  And I didn't coin the term "sun doubles". They are called sun doubles because........well.......they are scored as doubles. Maybe I'm off base like bballman

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/error

Originally Posted by 3FingeredGlove:

Green Light,

The scoring rules partially quoted above say (twice) that a fielder who allows a routine ball to fall to the ground is to be charged with an error. (There are situations in which it may be tactically advantageous for an infielder allow the ball to drop, so that he can play on other runners.)  If two or more players could have made the catch with routine effort, but don't, that doesn't absolve the error.  It may not seem fair to single out one player, but neither is it fair to the pitcher to declare it a hit.  

It is true that the error wouldn’t be absolved if a ball was allowed to drop that could have been caught, but if there is a putout on the play, there is no error. FI, runner on 1^st, pop to F4 is allowed to drop, F4 picks up ball and touches 2^nd for a PO of R1. No error, BR reaches on FC.

Regarding "sun balls", in MLB scoring, the official scorer generally will score an error even if the player loses the ball in the lights or the sun.  Conversely, the effect of wind on the difficulty of a play is apparent to the scorekeeper, so uncaught wind blown balls are more likely to considered a hit.

I don’t have any factual evidence information that either agrees or disagrees with that. But in watching well over 100ML games every year, the only GENERAL truth I’ve been able to perceive about it is, the home team seems to be given the benefit of the doubt more often than the visitor.

Green Light,

I don’t think you’re necessarily off base, but IMHO you may be trying to make a call black-and-white when its really lots of shades of gray. I think too many people allow their impressions of the SKs they see at their kid’s LL or HS game to cloud what SKs at the ML level do. I’ve known several of them and while they are only human, they know the scoring rules really well, and besides to the best of my knowledge every play where there’s any question at all is fact checked by someone who’s pretty much the final arbiter. MLB takes its records, and therefore the scoring of games very seriously.

IMHO, 3-finger's reference to the rules clear up the usual mis-interpretation of "if it ain't touched...".  Combine that with Swampboy's possible exceptions and you have a great answer for OP.

Thanks for the excellent repartee in this thread, Stats, bball and others. If I have learned anything, it is that the correct answer to most questions about "is it a hit or an error" is, "It depends".

For example, according to the link from Baseball Reference in my prior post,

Not all misplays result in an error. Errors in judgment are not usually counted as errors. For example, if, because of confusion or miscommunication, a fly ball that is easily catchable falls between two fielders without either of them touching the ball, no error is charged, as it is impossible to determine who is the guilty party.

I am not an "expert" or "recognized " official scorer. When I have referred to my experience, it has been based on the decisions of people who apparently are expert or recognized official scorers. So there ya go. There are clearly official guidelines, but consistent with those, it appears that the correct answer in any specific situation is "it depends"

Green Light,

The only way to get a lot of the answers about scoring for sure, is to get the memos MLB sends to teams for their official scorers. I’ve see several of them and while I don’t always agree with what they say, at least its nice to know there are guidelines out there. Its like using a case book for the game conduct rules, where as much individual interpretation as possible can be eliminated. Unfortunately, few amateur scorers get to see them and are thus left to interpret on their own, and that’s where things get muddled.

Interesting. One of my takes from your last post is that scoring is more like English case law than the Napoleonic Code!

Yes, it's a very different situation from the playing rules, where we have casebooks, the MLBUM, PBUC manual, authoritative opinion like Evans, J/R, etc.  Probably because the outcome of the game isn't affected by the decisions of the scorekeeper. 

Originally Posted by 3FingeredGlove:

Yes, it's a very different situation from the playing rules, where we have casebooks, the MLBUM, PBUC manual, authoritative opinion like Evans, J/R, etc.  Probably because the outcome of the game isn't affected by the decisions of the scorekeeper. 

And that’s exactly as it should be. All scorers do is record what took place using the guidelines provided. Because those records mean a lot more to ML teams than teams at all other levels, they do a lot more to make sure they’re correct. Look at OBR, NCAA, or NFHS rules and check out what the OSK’s report shall include. Then ask yourself which if any of the venues those rules cover actually require those reports be filed and get validated.

It takes a great deal of $$$ to get that job done well. That’s why you see only the MLB games being done without fail. College games are done better than HS games but not nearly as well as MLB games, and HS games are literally only one step above kid pitch games because the $$$ required to do it right are beyond the reach of the NFHS. Its always about the $$$.

Have enjoyed this thread. On the one hand, Stats, you hope we will respect the expertise of those who spend more time in the trenches actually making subjective decisions about this game -- and that makes sense. Then you make it clear that outside MLB, where reviews happen, there's no good reason to accept scorekeepers' interpretations.

No argument there. My takeaway is I will continue to trust my own interpretation -- because even though I'm not a scorekeeper, I know the game. Will I be wrong sometimes? Of course!

But so is everyone else, apparently!!

So ... my ruling: HIT.

jp24,

If you really believe you know more about scoring than the people scoring the games, why don’t you do it?

But seriously, I’m afraid you’ve misinterpreted what I was trying to get across, but its all good.

I always cringe when someone yells, "it hit the glove, that's an error".... not always! Watching ESPN goobers calling the CWS - saying a FC should have been an error.... omg Scoring accurately seem to confuse people.

otoh, heard an interesting discussion about players who are error prone not even trying to make a play ... no effort no error.... (and no I'm not saying that happened in the original post!)  I believe spray charts may help with this?

55mom,

Yeah, that one’s a real nerve grinder, and “That one was too hot to handle” is another. There are many others too, but its no more possible to teach everyone the scoring rules than it is to teach them the game conduct rules. Its unfortunate, but people are allowed to have and voice whatever opinions they want, ignorant or not, but that’s much of what makes the game what it is.

I’m curious about how you think spray charts could help with that particular problem.

was just thinking that it would be obvious if hits were getting past a particular player a little too frequently... of course, that type of thing takes care of itself when a coach sees swiss cheese in a position instead of a player.

my son is a pitcher, so I tend to think ANY and EVERY batted ball should be played for an out.... 

Are you referring to zone rating or spray charts? ZR is defense, spray charts are for offense (or pitchers).

Either way, I'm not sure about the relevance to whether a play is a hit or error

Green light, just being a bit silly. 

From the years I've watched ball, the vast majority of players give 100%.

I mentioned a discussion I heard about players who were making a lot of errors, perhaps because the ball wasn't playable from their position but they have it an effort. When they couldn't make the top ten play, they got an error. Then it became a discussion about error prone players not making the effort on playable balls ...

55mom,

I think you’re pretty much right on about the effort players put out. After all, it one of the things that gives them a spot on the field or in the lineup.

In the end, there’s a lot of reasons something is scored the way it is, so there’s no hard and fast rules to count on. I have something I try to keep in mind when I’m making a difficult decision about a play. I consider the “clap factor”. If a play would have been made and the fans from both teams would have been clapping or shouting in approval, its pretty easy to see it would have been more than an ordinary play, and I’ll favor the fielder.