Evaluate Swing Please

The contact off of the machine looked good.

It looks like your sequence is shift, hip turn and swing.

What you want is shift, swing and then hip turn.

The bat path is nice, but a little more extension over the plate would make the bat a longer lever.

You'll also find that it smoothes out the swing allowing you to swing faster with no dip in your swing.

Give it a try and post a video comparison.

Aren't the hips supposed to lead the hands? I thought the lower half was the main driving force of the swing. Am I wrong?

Some people think that the hips should lead the hands, but this creates the swing where the hands are forward and the bat drags.

Consider the lower body and back leg being the last force applied to the swing. This is magnified by the hip turn.

When you push something heavy, you lean, extend your arms and then turn into the weight being pushed.

When pushing something lighter, you can lean, turn and then extend your arms in the push.

Which action would you think applies greater force into the swing?

Look at the clips of Dimaggio and Williams swinging and watch when their hips turn into the swing.

When I push something heavy, my arms are the last thing getting extended after I have all my force into that object.

I believe the hips go slightly before the hands simply because the hips are quicker than the hands. If you think about swinging arms first, it seems as if you will be swinging all upper body. I just think about swinging backside (elbow, knee, hip) first then hands.

If you look at Pujols swinging in this clip http://youtube.com/watch?v=jJyY1Q3FaJ4 at 14 seconds if you pause, you can clearly see his back hip and elbow have started, but his hands have not moved.

In order to create torque, your body has to have "rubber band" effect. Your hips lead and that causes your hands to fire through at a greater velocity. That is why it is so important to have great flexibility throughout your torso. Your hips lead and that is what allows for the power. If your hands lead, you can not have any torque because the hips are what allows for it.

Also, when you are doing a power clean and jerk, you will lead with your legs, hips, and then arms?

Are you trying to tell me you don't pop with your hips during a power clean? Because I can tell you as an experienced lifter you do. Weight belts are worn (too often) to protect your back during max lifts. Weight belts should not be worn during normal sets because it actually makes your back weaker.

Go look at Johnny Damon, Big Papi, Chipper Jones, Dustin Pedroia. They all start the exact same way. You have to start with your back side or you get no batspeed.

While Pujols has a great swing, each player has similar points in their swing.

Actually if you look at DiMaggio's swing here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr5FEomvZ8A you will see he as well starts with his back side.

"There are no hips in the lift. That is evident in the weight belt (otherwise known as a back brace) being worn."

We weren't talking about turning, we were talking about power cleaning...you do use your hips when you power clean. The hips are what create the power..

All I am going to say is you can go ask ANY Division 1 strength training coach and they will tell you the explosive movement of the hips are what drive the lift. That is why it is a great lift.

The Power Clean Movement. The Power Clean consists of 2 pulls. You’ll spend most time working on the technique of the 2nd pull which is trickiest to learn.

* 1st Pull. Pull the barbell from the floor to your knees. The 1st pull is similar to a Deadlift and is a slow movement.
* 2nd Pull. Pull the barbell from your mid-thighs to your shoulders by extending your hips. The 2nd pull is an explosive movement.

Here is a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SioqtZK4kt4

Notice the hip extension is what allows the movement of the heavy weight.

So you're telling me that without your hips, someone could power clean a great amount of weight?

Here is a good read for you Quincy and even a few pictures to follow along with.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Examples/Separation.html

You can CLEARLY see the hips ahead of the hands and shoulders,this is the norm,not the exception.

tfox: That's great stuff. I have always talked about a "rubber band" effect to generate more torque and power. That link does a good job of explaining it. Thanks for sharing that.

inshocker pm sent

Well, you can think what you want to think, but you can look at ANY hitter in any league and there is a chain reaction. It is physically impossible to swing how you present with any power. The hips are stronger and quicker and have less distance to travel than the upper body and have to get ahead of the hands.

If you could, please pull up ONE big league hitter that hits as you speak. You said DiMaggio, but that one did not work.

Also, you never mentioned if you thought that without hips you would be able to power clean a great amount of weight.

I don't see Dimaggio or Williams turning their hips before starting their swings. I see them finishing with their hips.

Early hips usually lead to foul balls.

Hips are primarily bone.

Hips don't lift.

Cleaned up irrelavant postings.

I actually posted a video of DiMaggio...maybe you should go look at it.

Maybe you should go tell your philosophy to all the MLB hitters and all the college hitters because they must be hitting a lot of foul balls.

Good hip action=good torque=good bad speed=good hitter.

So can you are can't you power clean a lot of weight without your hips?

BTW...where did you play baseball after high school?

I'm just saying I would like you to post ONE video where a player's hands are in front of his hips. The swing starts with a player's back side (back knee, hip, elbow).

You still haven't answered the question of whether or not you could power clean a lot of weight without your hips.

Well if you can't see that dimaggio's back knee/hip are going well before his hands you are just blind. Just watch the video I posted...it shows it PERFECTLY. Put it in slow motion if you have to. How many pro hitter have you trained or played with? How about college? EVERY one will tell you the same thing.

As for the hips in cleaning...apparently you haven't trained as an athlete or haven't been a trainer...the hips are crucial for explosion in cleaning, squats, running, jumping, etc. If you want I can find articles that explain why.

INshocker, Quincy and a few others here have done a lot. They aren't new to video analysis nor are they new to the various hitting philosophies. If I might, I'd be careful decrying the "how many have you..." because you might find that many of the people posting here have coached several (insert what ever category you'd like). While I don't always agree with Quincy, or anyone else for that matter, in reading his posts, he is not a "flamer" set out to attach people but rather someone who presents his postion and does his best to conduct civil disagreements. JMHO!

If you're wondering about myself, yes I've coached a bunch of(insert what ever category you'd like).

Just a word to the wise.

Take care,

Darrell Butler

CoachB25: My whole point was for Quincy to back up his "theory" with some kind of evidence, whether that be who he's worked with or video tape. He throw out baseless facts and does not support them. I am sure many people on here have worked with many great players and that was not my point. I just don't like baseless arguments because I feel when you teach a player how to hit, you need to be able to explain WHY things work how they do.

Thanks for your input though, my comments were not meant maliciously, just trying to see facts.

INshocker, I've sent you a pm. Being new, I don't know if you have pmed anyone and so, there will be an envelope show up at the top of the page. Click on it and it will take you to the private messages portion of this site.

Take care,

Darrell

You know... I like Quincy and he does have a lot of good things to say. However this thread started with someone asking if he had a good swing. Quincy posted this reply...

quote:

It looks like your sequence is shift, hip turn and swing.

What you want is shift, swing and then hip turn.

I would strongly disagree with that advice! And it would be darn near impossible! It leaves no possibility of seperation (stretch) let alone, ability to adjust to different pitches. I don't think we have to get nasty, but there is nothing wrong with someone disagreeing with what they perceive to be incorrect. Not if there is an interest in helping others.

I too would like to see a video of a good hitter where the hands are ahead of the hips. Sorry!

Whether we agree or disagree is not the issue.

I offerred a suggestion for the batter to try that has been successful for myself and others.

If he tries it and either accepts it or rejects it is really of no importance.

If he gets good results, better for him. If not little is lost in the attempt.

I think what we want to see is proof of the success. We have supplied proof of our way (Pujols, DiMaggio), we would just like you to provide proof of someone hitting with their hands in front of their hips.

Proof is meaningless.

If I say that I spoke with kids and they then went on to set a new school home run record, did I hit any home runs?

If I offer that a hitter should keep his weight back, or extend his arms further into the swing or complete his follow through and that leads to success, did I hit any balls?

If I offer that a batter should hold the bat higher to have a greater range of motion and that eliminates strike outs and leads to a higher average, did I hold a bat?

What is proof if a batter uses one scintilla of a suggestion?

In other words there are NO videos of good hitters hitting with their hands before their hips? The proof the batter uses your suggestion comes from the video of his hands leading his hips. I have proof of hitters hitting the way I have described.

Here is some really good info but a horrible video,kinda hard to follow but good info none the less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi8xOprdLqo

INshocker is completely right, There is no way that you can lead with your hands and be able to hit the ball as hard as if you let your hips fly first... you may think that you're letting your hands go first, but it is almost impossible to be successful while doing that. Sorry

In the video above it shows linking the hands and the hips. If the hands are not linked with the hip, how do the hands link up? For some hitters the hands need to get going first just to the point of linking up with the hips. I agree with those above, that the hands can not get out in front of the hips and have an effective swing.

There is an obvious difference between 'hips opening' with the stride/weight shift and 'hip turn' in the swing.

With every stride/weight shift, the 'hips open' or direct the shoulders to the ball.

Only during a swing is 'hip turn' employed.

Many young hitters do not use 'hip turn' in their swings. This in my view comes as the result of excessive reliance on hitting off a Tee.

Hard to make a judgement on 2 swings. However, the person taping said it was good... I saw you step on the plate and you looked very off balanced. I hate batting cages. I tend to make mistakes when I use them... trying to time the machine or the arm which is slinging rubber balls.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30864159@N04/2890545235/

can i jump in?

My son in freshman fall league.

One cannot give a credible opinion on his swing from the two stills.

While his contact and followthrough are nice, a video would provide a better view of how he got there.

If you have a video, start a new topic so that it will be more visible.

Q-

U r nuts.

Hands start swing?

Why would you start anything with the weakest, smallest muscles....??? do you know any equation for energy, power, work, force

And I am sure that when InShock was speaking of hips, he was talking about the muscles that act oin the hips... we all know bone can't do a thing with out some muscles, ligaments and tendons...

JMO

BTW-
6 clients in Major Leagues
15 in Minor Leagues
50 plus in college
10 in high school
5 pre-high school