I just saw a thread where someone mentioned they went to a hs game and there were a bunch of scouts, etc... How does someone who is talented, but maybe doesn't play for a great team or that has parents that can not afford to send them on expensive travel teams or to PG events? Do they passed over a lot? Do a lot of great players potentially have their career end at the hs level because they didn't get the exposure they needed soon enough?
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sent you a pm. We can talk when we see each other, or give me a call.
Honestly, in this day and age, it's likely not too often that someone truly gifted and playing HS ball would go unnoticed. And, once noticed, word would travel quickly. While showcases and national tournaments are likely the easiest avenue to being seen by the largest concentration of eyes at any one time, if a player is truly a pro prospect or high D1 level player, there are enough area scouts around pounding the pavement and in touch with high school coaches that they'll be found.
My son was fortunate enough to work out for a couple of pro teams this past fall. Each time he was asked who else was he aware of that they might not be that they should look at. So these guys are asking everyone, even HS players, to try and shake the bushes for talent.
If you know of a player fitting the description you've given, start with the HS coach. A decent HS coach should have a history of contacts to get some eyes on the kid and spread the word if warranted.
Nuke83 posted:...If you know of a player fitting the description you've given, start with the HS coach. A decent HS coach should have a history of contacts to get some eyes on the kid and spread the word if warranted.
Absolutely!
Or if your HS coach doesn't have those contacts, he would likely be willing to make calls to find them (other coaches, etc...)
Our older son's HS coach was in that position - new to the area and frankly new to having a talented player. He got on the phone himself to local colleges and told them they need to get out to see our son. I think most coaches would do the same.
When my son's high school coach became a head coach he made it part of his job to make contact with all the local programs from D1 to D3. Chances are the D1s will hear about a potential player. But the coach made a lot of calls on behalf of D2 and D3 prospects. We would occasionally see a stranger at games. It was usually a D2 or D3 assistant.
It helped he came from a winning program with constant college prospects. He turned a loser program into a similar program. He would also provide help to other players in the conference.
Even when the HS coach doesn't view it as his job, or have any interest in helping kids move on, opposing coaches will. I agree that for a standout kid, it's hard to hide these days. They'll find you one way or the other.
The key to happiness is being seen by the program's you want to recruit you. It's where showcases and tournaments come into play. The locals are going to know who you are.
Nuke83 posted:Honestly, in this day and age, it's likely not too often that someone truly gifted and playing HS ball would go unnoticed. And, once noticed, word would travel quickly. While showcases and national tournaments are likely the easiest avenue to being seen by the largest concentration of eyes at any one time, if a player is truly a pro prospect or high D1 level player, there are enough area scouts around pounding the pavement and in touch with high school coaches that they'll be found.
My son was fortunate enough to work out for a couple of pro teams this past fall. Each time he was asked who else was he aware of that they might not be that they should look at. So these guys are asking everyone, even HS players, to try and shake the bushes for talent.
If you know of a player fitting the description you've given, start with the HS coach. A decent HS coach should have a history of contacts to get some eyes on the kid and spread the word if warranted.
I used to think like this not too long ago. Then I moved to this small community many miles from anywhere. Last season, my son's team had two stud pitchers (son was the #3 as a frosh). There wasn't really even a question between them as to who was better, but exposure made a huge difference in opportunity. Keep in mind that the stats are very easy to compare because we play mostly doubleheaders, so on any given day, each of the two pitched against exactly the same teams.
Pitcher #1 Pitcher #2
W/L: 6-1 8-1
era: 1.59 0.61
IP: 39.2 46.2
H: 25 17
K: 55 92
BB: 13 8
OBA: .207 .120
Velocity: 83-86 87-90
Both played summers for a local Babe Ruth type team that didn't travel much. However, pitcher #1 played one fall on a good travel team and had PG and PBR profiles. Bothe were good pitchers.
Both ended up at the same local JC. Pitcher #1 had some D1 and D2 interest, but chose to play there because his father is the head coach at the JC. Player #2 had no other interest whatsoever. Both were also very good students. I was absolutely shocked to learn how little Pitcher #2 had done to expose himself to schools and how he remained hidden.
For complete disclosure, I guess I should also mention that Pitcher #1 was 6' 5" and Pitcher #2 was 5' 10"
Wow that is crazy
roothog66 posted:For complete disclosure, I guess I should also mention that Pitcher #1 was 5' 10" and Pitcher #2 was 6' 5"
What if that kid has no desire to play anywhere else? I am guessing he is playing at the JC. In the past you have made comments on a number of your HS coaches pitchers that have gone on to play D2 and D3 college ball. How many of those pitchers moved through the local JC?
real green posted:roothog66 posted:For complete disclosure, I guess I should also mention that Pitcher #1 was 5' 10" and Pitcher #2 was 6' 5"
What if that kid has no desire to play anywhere else? I am guessing he is playing at the JC. In the past you have made comments on a number of your HS coaches pitchers that have gone on to play D2 and D3 college ball. How many of those pitchers moved through the local JC?
Actually, there haven't been that many go on to play D2 or D3. There were a few that played D1. Almost all that were drafted bypassed college. The school has produced either very high draft picks or none at all. None, that I can find, have gone through the local JC. In fact, until this past season, the JC coach had taken a lot of fire for almost never taking local kids. Three from last year are on the roster, one being his son. Our high school HC - and I love the guy - just does not get involved in helping his players move on. He's been here for a while and is still stuck in a time where, when he had studs, scouts came down to see them.
The parents of the kid in question were shocked he didn't get more attention as was I, at least until after asking a few questions I realized the kid hadn't been to a single showcase or contacted a single coach.
roothog66 posted:real green posted:roothog66 posted:For complete disclosure, I guess I should also mention that Pitcher #1 was 5' 10" and Pitcher #2 was 6' 5"
What if that kid has no desire to play anywhere else? I am guessing he is playing at the JC. In the past you have made comments on a number of your HS coaches pitchers that have gone on to play D2 and D3 college ball. How many of those pitchers moved through the local JC?
Actually, there haven't been that many go on to play D2 or D3. There were a few that played D1. Almost all that were drafted bypassed college. The school has produced either very high draft picks or none at all. None, that I can find, have gone through the local JC. In fact, until this past season, the JC coach had taken a lot of fire for almost never taking local kids. Three from last year are on the roster, one being his son. Our high school HC - and I love the guy - just does not get involved in helping his players move on. He's been here for a while and is still stuck in a time where, when he had studs, scouts came down to see them.
The parents of the kid in question were shocked he didn't get more attention as was I, at least until after asking a few questions I realized the kid hadn't been to a single showcase or contacted a single coach.
I think you just answered your question. 30 years ago with no outlets to showcase talent I could see word getting around and scouts coming to a particular school. Now these scouts can just go to selected events and see a concentration of talent. I really believe a kid has to sell himself to get seen whether it is through showcase, camps or just youtube videos.
lionbaseball posted:roothog66 posted:real green posted:roothog66 posted:For complete disclosure, I guess I should also mention that Pitcher #1 was 5' 10" and Pitcher #2 was 6' 5"
What if that kid has no desire to play anywhere else? I am guessing he is playing at the JC. In the past you have made comments on a number of your HS coaches pitchers that have gone on to play D2 and D3 college ball. How many of those pitchers moved through the local JC?
Actually, there haven't been that many go on to play D2 or D3. There were a few that played D1. Almost all that were drafted bypassed college. The school has produced either very high draft picks or none at all. None, that I can find, have gone through the local JC. In fact, until this past season, the JC coach had taken a lot of fire for almost never taking local kids. Three from last year are on the roster, one being his son. Our high school HC - and I love the guy - just does not get involved in helping his players move on. He's been here for a while and is still stuck in a time where, when he had studs, scouts came down to see them.
The parents of the kid in question were shocked he didn't get more attention as was I, at least until after asking a few questions I realized the kid hadn't been to a single showcase or contacted a single coach.
I think you just answered your question. 30 years ago with no outlets to showcase talent I could see word getting around and scouts coming to a particular school. Now these scouts can just go to selected events and see a concentration of talent. I really believe a kid has to sell himself to get seen whether it is through showcase, camps or just youtube videos.
Yeah. There are still those out there, though, who hang onto this outdated idea that if you have the talent, they will find you.
roothog - I don't think its fair to call it 'outdated.' I do think that there's a high dependency on where you are and sometimes who you play for.
Our two sons grew up in Northern CA (Bay Area). Admittedly a pretty high exposure area by volume, weather and history. One played for a lousy HS team that hadn't had a D1 player in many, many years - maybe never. The other for a great HS team that sent lots of players onto college and pro ball. Scouts showed up at both teams' games. As many as 30, as little as 1. For that area, word does get around. I do think they will find you.
For that area, getting exposure through showcases and travel ball mostly increases the options for beyond HS. Or...for a marginal player, I'm guessing it may get you in the game over a just playing HS ball. But I also saw plenty of local players spend a lot of money on travel and showcases and reap no benefit whatsoever. Plenty of shysters out there that either don't really know what they're doing or will tell you things about talent level that just aren't true - and they ran into some of them.
justbaseball posted:roothog - I don't think its fair to call it 'outdated.' I do think that there's a high dependency on where you are and sometimes who you play for.
Our two sons grew up in Northern CA (Bay Area). One played for a lousy HS team that hadn't had a D1 player in many, many years - maybe never. The other for a great HS team that sent lots of players onto college and pro ball. Scouts showed up at both teams' games. As many as 30, as little as 1. For that area, word does get around. I do think they will find you.
For that area, getting exposure through showcases and travel ball mostly increases the options for beyond HS. Or...for a marginal player, I'm guessing it may get you in the game over a just playing HS ball. But I also saw plenty of local players spend a lot of money on travel and showcases and reap no benefit whatsoever. Plenty of shysters out there that either don't really know what they're doing or will tell you things about talent level that just aren't true - and they ran into some of them.
To clarify a little, I don't necessarily think it's totally outdate to think it won't happen - at least in larger population centers. However, I think it's very outdated to rely on it.
I had the opportunity last December to hear a panel of about 15 D1 coaches address this situation. Unanimously, they expressed that, during the high school season, they will get out two or three times to see kids they are interested in, but will never venture outside of their immediate area - just no time. They expressed their dependence on services like PG, PBR and others to at least bring to their attention top talent. So, if you are a big talent in LA, for example, then it's easy to be noticed, at least by the many, many good schools within a short drive. Not so easy in Lamar, Colorado. Here, it used to be different not all that long ago. We had pitchers (first and second round draft pitch types) who, as recent as 1999/2000 that actually drew recruiters and scouts down here to the sticks in droves. I don't see that anymore.
sidenote: I recently dug up an old Chicago Tribune article about scouting that talked about a scout coming down here to look at Doug Brocail. He was already heavily recruited and a sure-fire draft pick. He hit 90 on the gun for the first time that day, which excited people. Now, reaching 90 as a senior gets you "interest."
justbaseball posted:roothog - I don't think its fair to call it 'outdated.' I do think that there's a high dependency on where you are and sometimes who you play for.
Our two sons grew up in Northern CA (Bay Area). Admittedly a pretty high exposure area by volume, weather and history. One played for a lousy HS team that hadn't had a D1 player in many, many years - maybe never. The other for a great HS team that sent lots of players onto college and pro ball. Scouts showed up at both teams' games. As many as 30, as little as 1. For that area, word does get around. I do think they will find you.
For that area, getting exposure through showcases and travel ball mostly increases the options for beyond HS. Or...for a marginal player, I'm guessing it may get you in the game over a just playing HS ball. But I also saw plenty of local players spend a lot of money on travel and showcases and reap no benefit whatsoever. Plenty of shysters out there that either don't really know what they're doing or will tell you things about talent level that just aren't true - and they ran into some of them.
+1
My first thoughts were about how it greatly depends on where you're located and who you play for or against.
I don't care where you live or who you play for....in THIS day and age how do the parents of a 6'5 90mph pitcher not google "How to get recruited"...or...."How to get drafted".....or...."How to get noticed, baseball"???? I'm all for "It's the kids dream and he has to do the work", but for crud's sake why didn't the parents at least google it, find HSBBW and 50 people would have told him how to move forward and get a decent offer!
CaCO3Girl posted:I don't care where you live or who you play for....in THIS day and age how do the parents of a 6'5 90mph pitcher not google "How to get recruited"...or...."How to get drafted".....or...."How to get noticed, baseball"???? I'm all for "It's the kids dream and he has to do the work", but for crud's sake why didn't the parents at least google it, find HSBBW and 50 people would have told him how to move forward and get a decent offer!
Whoops. Not that it makes that much difference in your evaluation, but I screwed up on that post. The 90 guy was 5' 10" and Pitcher #1 was 6' 5." I edited the post
Comparisons such as the one above seldom provide much insight because there are so many variables we don't and can't know about any given individual.
In this case, we don't know when he started flashing 90, when he started averaging 2 K's per inning, what his grades and test scores were, what his injury history was, what his character is, how committed he was to playing in college, whether other sports or other interests made him less motivated to find college opportunities, whether he even wanted to go away to college, and when he hopes to get his first post-high school crack at the draft.
We just don't know.
Swampboy posted:Comparisons such as the one above seldom provide much insight because there are so many variables we don't and can't know about any given individual.
In this case, we don't know when he started flashing 90, when he started averaging 2 K's per inning, what his grades and test scores were, what his injury history was, what his character is, how committed he was to playing in college, whether other sports or other interests made him less motivated to find college opportunities, whether he even wanted to go away to college, and when he hopes to get his first post-high school crack at the draft.
We just don't know.
I can answer those questions.
Grades? Both carried 4.0. In fact, I'm a little confused as to how playing JC works for them, since both took dual credit courses and graduated high school with A.A. degrees from the same JC.
Velocity and K numbers? As juniors, both put up basically the same numbers as their senior years as to era and K's. The 5' 10" kid was sitting 86-87, topping out at 88 his junior year, but hadn't hit 90. His era as a junior was 0.60 and as a soph was 1.24 with 24 K's in 22 ip.
Other sports? The 5' 10" guy was a good, but not college talent player. The 6' 5" guy didn't play any other sports.
And, yes, he wanted to play college ball. I had a conversation with his dad late in the season and he indicated that he thought he'd gotten enough exposure.
He's currently only had three appearances in 15 games with only 4 ip's on the season. Gave up an earned run and only K'd 2.
"getting exposure through showcases and travel ball mostly increases the options for beyond HS. Or...for a marginal player, I'm guessing it may get you in the game over a just playing HS ball. But I also saw plenty of local players spend a lot of money on travel and showcases and reap no benefit whatsoever. Plenty of shysters out there that either don't really know what they're doing or will tell you things about talent level that just aren't true - and they ran into some of them"
The challenge for us parents is finding the right balance. I do feel bad for the kids who would really like to play baseball in college and think that their HS games are getting watched by college coaches. Maybe if you are playing for a top ranked team in the state. But as many have noted here, the day and age of college coaches going out during the middle of their season to see a kid play a HS game are few and far between. At a Stanford camp my son attended, the pitching coach said he had seen exactly one potential recruit in a HS game over the past three years. They find them other ways now.
So if your son is not an obvious D1 star, your choice is either to sign on to a strong travel ball team who will get attention in events like USA Baseball and PG or try the Showcase route. I will say this for the Showcase angle--at least if your son attends a couple of them and gets no interest, then at least you have answered the question if there was a chance to play college baseball. Sitting around and hoping to get noticed and then nothing happens leaves you and your son maybe wondering what if. In that case, there is a "benefit reaped" that you get an answer to what if.
And if your son is academically gifted, the Headfirst or other academic showcases gives him a chance to get noticed at an event where they know he can handle the academics and just need to look at baseball ability. Is it worth it to spend $900 to see if a kid might be able to get into one of those outstanding schools to play baseball? That seems like a reasonable investment to get the answer.
