FB grip

Is his mind open to you and or change?
Showing the kid the reality of improvement should clear it up quick...my guess is he's one of those who "tried it once" and had a negative response..I'm a big believer in "brass tack's". Do you as a coach believe he will have issues with it going to the next level? If yes then the truth is the truth..I'd have a sit down and explain that if he's uncoachable for you what chance of success is there beyond you when his ability to adjust will determine his future opportunities. I think "coachability" rates very high up on the scale for his future. The sooner he understands the better.

Good point about the kid's willingness to learn. If he is willing to learn, then my suggestion is to have him try a few different things: 4-seam, 2-seam with the laces, 2-seam across the laces.

In my opinion ... 4 things that will help him with getting optimum velocity, movement and control are:

-- Try to stick with 2-finger grip. The closer together his fingers stay (without losing control) the more force he'll transfer to the ball, and the better the movement.

-- Have him make sure his thumb and middle finger cut the ball in half. A small difference on the ball can lead to a big difference in hitting locations at the plate.

-- Check his hand in the glove before he starts to throw. Make sure his hand is directly behind the baseball. This set-up can help keep the hand behind the ball throughout delivery; helping with velocity and control.

-- Have him "aim small". Rather than aiming to hit the "glove" have him focus in on a spot in the glove about the size of a dime, and ask him to throw the ball through the spot (not to the spot).

Of course, if he will develop his funtional strength, and develop efficient, repeatable mechanics, this will go a logn way to help as well.

Good luck to you and your players.

he is very willing to learn. That is not the problem. he is coachable. He is not the one that challenged the tought of change. it was a pitching coach i respect that challenged the tought.
He simply asked why change if he is successful. I am wondering is their anything positive gained from throwing a 3 finger fastball other than comfort?

Well the why change would be who else does it? I mean if even one successful pitcher advocated it and was able to substantiate it without velocity loss..perhaps at that point debatable..Sorta like the Marshall debate...until you see his mechanics in the majors and successful, it's an interesting discussion and thats all. As a coach do you know a college coach that would allow/recommend it? If the kid is in the velo range to go up..I'd consider it (Changing it), if he's not going beyond..what the heck let him enjoy it the best way he can.
The other than is velocity loss or failure to reach velocity potential.

I do not know anyone who would promote it. I highly doubt there are any coaches that would recomend it.

But if i can play the other side, (I promote 2 or 4 seam) why change a kid that has had success? I have see him throw all 3 fb's, no noticable difference in velo. No change in movement. Do i change him for the simple fact that someone will change him eventually? Do you think the velo and movement will come with confidence?

Well inform him what you know, let him make his own decisions and let him use it effectively now. If he moves on who knows? Maybe he gets to keep it in college.
Yes I do believe his two seamer will be a go to, once he makes a comittment to the pitch.
It just enhances so much of the arsenal to have a moving fb. Particularly if you cut and sink it. Unless it's just super hot a flat fb can be a liability..the beauty of both (2&4 seam) is you have a "rising" fb into the mix and that tad more unpredictability...does that 3 finger "do" anything?

It does what a 3 seam fb is supposed to do. it is pretty flat!!! Every once in awhile he will get some sink on it.

Thanks I just wanted to confirm that I had not missed something in my thought process.

quote:

It does what a 3 seam fb is supposed to do. it is pretty flat!!!

Would seem a great reason to lose it
Unless you want him developing neck issues from watchin it get jerked

JD mentioned earlier that having the 2 fingers together, or maybe it was SouthPaw-Dad, is best when released. It will come off the hand more smoothly and most importantly, 3 fingers will create more friction during release. 2 fingers, with the longer middle finger releasing last will reduce friction and will maximize spin and velocity. There's no way in my mind that his velo won't change with the 2 finger grip. If you're not sure, gun him.
Then again as JD said, what level is this kid going for, will he be a successful high school pitcher, does he have the stuff to start on his high school team? With the change, will he have the chance to play college ball? Things to consider before tinkering, but the kid should know and understand that he's doing it just plain wrong.

PT -- Just a thought for you and your ball player, but if has a little natural movement, trying different grips on a 2-finger, 2-seam, may give him more movement and options.

My Southpaw's (a 2011) 2-seamer has historically cut and sank into righties (obviously, falling away from lefties). This year, as he got a little stronger, his 2-seam started tailing hard away from righties (boring in on lefties). His 4-seam FB runs travels straight as an arrow.

Through small changes to his grip, and how he sets his hand in his glove, he is learning how to create a Cut or a Tail on command. Today, he isn't blowing the ball by guys; but he is very effective, because it is hard for hitters to square him up.

This could be a good time of year for your Pitcher to try a few new things, to see if it gives him some new weapons.

For what it's worth.

Yeah, I would try to get him to change it. Just have him throw a lot in bullpen work. My sons pitching coach got him to change the grip on his changeup to get more movement. The first 15-20 pitches didn't even reach the plate, but he liked the new grip. After a while, he adjusted to the new release point and has been fine since. Point is, have him throw a bunch of bullpen with it. Even if it doesn't work at first, keep with it. It will be worth it in the long run.

Thanks for the advie. I think I am right in changing him too a two finger fastball. We will creat several variations I am sure and find what is comfortable for him.

Southpaw--- setting the hand in the golve what do you mean by this??? I have played with the fingers, pressure points, and eerything else. I have, however never played with placement in the glove. I do not think.

Hi PT -- We discovered this first by accident, but then had it reinforced through working with Tom House (NPA founder and current USC Pitching Coach).

How you grip the baseball impacts how much force you can apply to the ball. Ex: Fingers together on a fastball grip, with thumb & middle finger splitting the ball in half, allows you to apply maximum force; Split finger grip reduces the amount of force you can apply to the ball.

The set (angle) of your hand and forearm are what impart rotation on the ball. Hand directly behind the baseball for a fastball; full "karate chop" for a curve ball; half a karate chop for a Slider; palm pronated away for a change-up.

My son has learned to set his grip and forearm angle in his glove (before starting his delivery), and to then just throw everything like a fastball (thinking fastball). He is not trying to twist his arm in mid-delivery, or snap something off at release. Logic and science tell us that this is also the safest on the arm.

When he wants the ball to fly perfectly straight, he grips across the 4 seams (thumb & middle finger cutting the ball in half), and sets his hand in his glove so that it is directly behind the baseball.

When he wants the ball to tail, he grips across the 2 seams, T & MF cutting the ball in half, and sets his hand in the glove directly behind the baseball, or ever so slightly pronated.

When he wants the ball to cut, he grips it with the 2 seams, and sets his hand in his glove a little open (the side of the hand just laying on the leather.

He throws from a 1/2 to 3/4 arm slot, which adds a little whipping action. The beauty of this for him is that he grips the ball, sets his hand and forearm angle "in the glove", and then just throws everything like a fastball. Grip and arm angle take care of the force and rotation.

Since really locking this in (summer '07) he has been incredibly consistent, efficient, and effective. His mechanics are extremely repeatable, since he is doing the same thing on every pitch; adding to the effectiveness, because there are no subtle "tells" for a batter to pick up.

Coach House and the NPA folks explain this far better than I. You might want to check out their Art & Science of Pitching book and DVD series (www/nationalpitching.net).

I was taught by an NPA certified pitcher for a long time. Actually taking a kid I have on my roster now to see him tonight. i will ask questions. It makes sense. I do it naturally but never thought about it to look into it with my kids. Thanks southpaw

PT when this kid throws to get loose or throws from another postion how does he grip the ball?

I am in favor of changing him unless he was flat out dominating with the three finger. We all have relative knowledge of what the two finger grip will do and that is why everyone teaches it.

When I picture him throwing a three finger I just automatically envision a fast changeup or a hittable changeup.

Something I heard one of my coaches one time tell one of our pitchers was if you want to change a grip for pitching then work on it first when you throw to get loose and long toss (as long as you keep it realistic effort and distance).

I bet he throws to get loose with three fingers (but may be wrong) and if he does then have him switch to two fingers here. He will accept the change easier here than he will if he hops on the mound with a new grip. It gives his body / mind a chance to make a change.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:


I am in favor of changing him unless he was flat out dominating with the three finger. We all have relative knowledge of what the two finger grip will do and that is why everyone teaches it.

Same here!

Hey guys. I have read this forum for a long while now and figured this would be a good time to jump in.
I threw a "3 fingered fastball" up until about that age. I was not small (6' 200lb) but had short fingers and felt like I needed the extra finger there. After finally moving to a more typical grip I did add some velocity rather quickly and gained confidence in my control with it rather quickly.
I would suggest having him work with different grips in long toss and bullpens to get him comfortable without having to ditch throw the 3 fingered fastball all together and then slowly fade that pitch out.
Especially with him being left-handed, I feel that moving to a 2 fingered (especially 2 seemed) fastball will pay major dividends in velocity and more so in movement. Also it will allow for a more pronounced speed differential between his fastball and change-up (if he throws one). The benefits are multifaceted.
Just let him determine how quickly you fade the 3 fingered grip out and I think he will see the results/benefits of the new grip(s) sooner than later.

I took one of myptcher's to see my former pitching coach last night. I was suprised at how much his teaching approached had changed. it has been simplified so much. It is good and easy to follow.

I did ask questions and most of everythign we talked about was correct and made a difference. Thanks for the advice.

Hi PT -- Glad you are finidng some advice that is helpful. Something I am recommending to everyone who is interested in stduying pitching these days is to go through the online course on the NPA web site: http://www.nationalpitching.net/default.asp

They really did a terrific job with this, and the price and time commitment are both reasonable. You may not subscribe to everything presented, but there is a lot of great teaching there.

A little bragging -- Southpaw_son earned a save in the tournament opener tonight in FL. He was called on to get ready in a hurray; went to his NPA drills to lock in his mechanics; and went out and threw a 1-2-3, 12 pitch inning ... after not throwing in the heat of battle for a month. He just kept pounding the corners with his 2-seam tailer, and challenged them to hit it.

Best of luck to you and your young pitchers!

Great job southpaw_son

Thanks Lodi! A braggng update ... Southpaw_son's team won the tournament, and he threw 5 scoreless in the Championship game against a very good hitting FL team. About the time they began trying to take his tailing 2-seam the other way, he started cutting it in on the righties, and they swung over it, or dribbled it to SS.

The moral of the story ... Learning to throw more than 1 Fastball is a very powerful tool for a Pitcher.

I would have him to work on changing while he is young. If it don't work out, it's just a grip, he can always go back.

He sounds like he may be a future college+ prospect.

I would bet that if he goes to the next level, they will try to get him to change.

quote:

Originally posted by Pastime Trnments:
I am wondering is their anything positive gained from throwing a 3 finger fastball other than comfort?

Yes.

His 3-finger fastball could basically be working as a change-up (e.g. pitch fork change) and be costing him 1-2 MPH.

The logic is...

More fingers on the ball = More friction at the release point = Less velocity.