Felony charges for a HS sports injury

Sorry, but this crosses the line into ridiculousness. JMHO

Breaking a kid's nose isn't typically life threatening. Suspend the kid for a season or a year of sports. Have him go to anger management counseling. Forget the felony charges.

When my son was twelve he was shot by another kid in the neighborhood. My son hit the kid in the face with a throw in whiffle ball. It was how they played three on three wiffle ball. Hit the base runner and he's out.

The kid went in the house, got a CO2 gun and shot my son. He had surgery to have the lead pellet removed from up against the major artery in his neck. 

The shooter was given probation and six months counseling. I suggested the school have someone give a talk about gun safety and the proper handling of guns. The principal refused. She said it would humiliate the shooter. Yes, I responded that statement the way most dads here would have. The principal thought I was the nutcase.

Needless to say my son was never friends with the kid again. Then again, he didn't hang out with potheads in high school.

JMO but its crazy to think that a youth coach would ever tell a kid to throw at someone... doesnt surprise me but crazy nonetheless

And before this year you wouldn't think a coach would tell two players to attack a referee/back judge in a HS football game either, but it happened.  Crazy stuff out there in youth sports.

Although a felony does seem a little harsh - sure it sends a message, but that's something a 15 year old will have to live with if convicted. It'll be an interesting case for some lawyer.

Any sports that requires padding for any player on the team (including helmets) should not be subject to criminal charges in the course of a game. What next,  NFL going to go to flag football so there is no physical contact?  Have cops waiting at every baseball game in case a batter gets hit or the second basements legs get taken out on a double play?  Are there going to be summits in basketball to determine if the foul was unsportsmanlike or criminal?  Checking the boards in hockey is a thing of the past?

What ever happens on the field stays on the field.  If my kid gets belted in the face with a 90mph fastball it is going to suck, but it is part of the game. I would never want the pitcher brought up on criminal charges...now if it is proven that the coach told him to do it, yeah, him I would have brought up on criminal charges.

Totally legitimate questions.  We shouldn't need the threat of a law suit to know that intentionally ordering/throwing at someone is at least wrong and potentially much worse.  It could permanently maim someone and worse, could potentially kill someone.  For what?

Many, many years ago, I saw a kid on our team hit another kid in the face and the shrieks coming from that kid and his family and the sound of ambulances rushing to the scene is a horrible memory.  The kid who threw the pitch was kind of known as a loose cannon and I suspected there may have been some intention to the pitch but nobody ever insinuated that.  Nobody, even big leaguers can guarantee where a pitch may go and to intentionally try to hit someone is unconscionable.  I always felt Pedro Martinez and others were wrong to do it and it is even more dangerous coming from untrained youths.  Of course, I don't believe kids want to throw at people.  That comes from adults and yes, if calling for such a tactic, they should have exposure to legal liability.    

Without seeing the video its hard to make a decision on if charging the kid with a felony is the correct course of action.  For the most part, I don't believe that using a court to punish a kid for what happens in the field of play is the proper course of action.  But let me throw out a situation that my wife (Jr. HS Principal) had to deal with this year.  BTW, I am going to be intentionally vague on the details as I have lots of info, but the kid is a minor and I need to be careful what I say.  Also, this happened the same week that the Texas players attacked the ref as well as the Jersey player attacking another player.  My wife's school was fortunate enough to keep this out of the press.

Immediately after a football game, player A grabs opposing player B's helmet and proceeds to beat payer B upon his head with helmet.  Sending player B to the ER.  Now how do you handle this case?  Lots of differing views on how to handle.   School has one position, Player B's parents another, Player A's parents obviously want to protect their child.  Do you involve the police and the courts? 

When it comes to violence in sports at what point is the line crossed?  What if player A used his fists, he could have inflicted some serious damage with those as well.  What if it happened in the game?  Does that make a difference.  Where is the line between what should involve the courts and what shouldn't?  Its can be a very gray line.  As I mentioned above without seeing the video and having all the facts in the case its very hard to determine if taking the kid to court is the right action or not.

I will admit that over time my view on intentionally throwing at batters has changed or 'grown up.'  I now sit in the camp that CD sits in.  There is no place for it.

Don't think a coach should ever order a kid to throw at somebody.  However I still think there are times to figure it out for yourself.  Watching a 13u game last year (not my son's) a kid viciously bowled over the catcher.  Called out but not thrown out of game for some reason.  Neanderthal dad seemed just fine with what his son did.  Were I a kid pitching on the other team I most certainly 100% would have thrown at the kid.  I would hope my son would also.  I would really really want to put it in his earhole.  But I suppose disciplining oneself to throw at his waist would be better.  As for the post game football example above that is definitely a crime.  Big difference.

As for involving the courts, I would say there are instances where is would be completely appropriate.  Unfortunately, the vast majority of instances will probably be in the grey area.  Most everyone can probably envision a football player attacking another player long after the play is over - assume he belts some kid swinging his helmet - suppose he kills the other kid - everyone would agree.  I think this is sort of like modern day video replay - who would have thought even 10 years ago that Sunday's football game would be decided by some guy in New York watching five different slow motion replays of the same catch.  It used to be everybody had their own version of events after a fight - now we have multiple video angles of the fight - or cheap shot.  If the video looks criminal and starts circulating, then the authorities have no option but to take action.  

By the way, did Harper ever get brought up on charges?

2020Dad, I differ with you on throwing at a kid.  I used to have your take on it, but as my kids have progressed through the game my stance has changed.  I really don't see any reason to throw at a kid.  I will say there was ont an incident that caused me to change my feelings, but they did evolve over time.

On the football thing, what makes that more of a crime then intentionally attacking, with intent to harm, during a game?  

Another example of someone in a position of power not being able to distinguish between being able to do something and doing the right thing....sure they could charge them....doesnt mean they should.  Also, another bright example (shocking its out of the Bay Area) of adults holding kids to a higher standard than they hold most adults.  

This is silly to me.  

My son hit a kid in the face two summers ago while pitching.  The ball slipped out of his hand and plunked the kid in the jaw.   It was not intentional but if someone wanted to make a stink out of it how do you prove a ball slipped?  

After the game my son went up to the kid to check on him, he was sitting on the bench with ice on his jaw.  The kid who got hit said he was angry at himself because he turned into the pitch instead of spinning away....not sure why.  

I couldn't get beyond the headline, "Athlete Charged with Felony Over Broken Nose."

A broken nose is a non-event.  It's a piece of cartilage.  You don't even have to go to the doctor.

I don't know anything about water polo, but if you're doing something malicious that's decidedly outside the bounds of the rules of the sport, you deserve whatever consequences are brought to bear.  There was a story some years ago about a HS (I believe) kid throwing at a kid while he was in the on-deck circle (can't Google it right now), and for that I'd be more than willing to throw the book at him.  Throwing, intentionally, at a kid in the box is, IMO, outside the bounds too, but obviously tougher to prosecute.

BTW, not sure how it works in CA, but the decision to charge a kid with a crime is not up to the school.  In general the police and DA make that decision in consultation with the victim.  The school can have some input into the process but its not their decision.  

freddy77 posted:

I couldn't get beyond the headline, "Athlete Charged with Felony Over Broken Nose."

A broken nose is a non-event.  It's a piece of cartilage.  You don't even have to go to the doctor.

 

The article says he needed surgery before returning to the team, so it was bit more serious than the headline suggests.

2020DAD - assume you kid decides to throw at the "bad" kid - The bad kid's big so your kid knows he has to put something on it for it to really hurt - hoping to hit him square on the hip bone - maybe leave a nice bruise.  Your kid rears back and lets it go - releases the ball 1/32nd of a second too early.  The ball heads towards the bad kid's head - bad kid being slow, turns into the ball.  The ball hits him square in the nose, killing him.  Exact same intent (just wanted to send a message), but drastically unexpected consequences.  I think negligent manslaughter fits this action if it were to occur elsewhere (wanton disregard for life).  If the argument is "he doesn't throw hard enough", then I assume at some point you would no longer support throwing at batters.  Used to be just about everyone could settle things with fisticuffs.  Nowdays the other guy simply says "You touch me I'm gonna sue".  Times have changed.  Besides, throwing at a 13 yo probably will not get any type of message across to either the bad kid, their parent or coach - it will simply make matters worse.  Please don't make a 13 yo responsible for upholding his team's honor by beaning some poor kid.

There is a lot of punching, grabbing, kneeing, kicking, etc. in water polo. Without seeing the video it's hard to say, but a felony charge seems like an overreaction.

Video everywhere certainly changes things. When I was in junior high, in a football game I saw a teammate's dad (a former NFL player, who is in the football Hall of Fame) run onto the field and punch the ref. I can't imagine the media firestorm that would be created if something like that happened nowadays. 

LH and Joes as always respect others opinions but after many years in the game and seeing my son progress - albeit not as far yet - my feelings remain unchanged.  Paul konerko got hit right in the face misreading a fastball as a curveball.  It was ugly but not at all life threatening.   I do find it interesting that the same people (maybe I am wrong) who have no issue with football and its annual deaths purely not intended take issue with a practice that as far as I know has never caused a death since the helmet era.  And again emphasizing throwing at midsection not head.  Not to mention the head is much easier to get out of the way.  Honestly unless you know of some high mortality rate I am unaware of I think your concerns are a bit like worrying about stepping off the curb and getting blindsided by a bus you somehow managed not to see!

Why bother?  Are you also opposed to bat flipping?  Is there some intrinsic benefit for all kids involved when they throw at each other?  Does it build character?  Your argument is that no one has died yet really isn't good enough.  Please explain why 13 yo's need to throw at each other - please don't expect me to believe it sends a message to others to behave.

2020dad posted:

LH and Joes as always respect others opinions but after many years in the game and seeing my son progress - albeit not as far yet - my feelings remain unchanged.  Paul konerko got hit right in the face misreading a fastball as a curveball.  It was ugly but not at all life threatening.   I do find it interesting that the same people (maybe I am wrong) who have no issue with football and its annual deaths purely not intended take issue with a practice that as far as I know has never caused a death since the helmet era.  And again emphasizing throwing at midsection not head.  Not to mention the head is much easier to get out of the way.  Honestly unless you know of some high mortality rate I am unaware of I think your concerns are a bit like worrying about stepping off the curb and getting blindsided by a bus you somehow managed not to see!

Because intentionally breaking the rules of the game in order to purposely inflict injury is stupid, and should be noted as such by anyone interested in the sport.

Encouraging children to do it should be criminal, and probably is in many jurisdictions even if it is rarely treated as such.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

 Please explain why 13 yo's need to throw at each other - please don't expect me to believe it sends a message to others to behave.

While I haven't seen this first hand my son has been warned about several things that could cause a retaliatory pitch to be thrown at him.  Most are along the lines of showboating.  Either you will get hit the next time up, or your buddy who is after you will get hit.  I think Domingo covers this in some of his videos as well

2020DAD - I might also add that if you want your 13 yo to maintain his control while throwing at some kid, he'd better have nerves of steel.  Perhaps you could have him practice throwing at this younger brother's or sister's head in the back yard for giggles.  That ought to make the live game situation safer.  By the way, I'll concede probably no outright deaths in the past 50 years, but quite a few careers were effectively ended with a blow to the head or face.  Probably a few ended with a broken wrist or hand that didn't heal just right.  Please don't tell me the kid getting beaned should know how to protect themselves. 

2017LHPscrewball posted:

2020DAD - I might also add that if you want your 13 yo to maintain his control while throwing at some kid, he'd better have nerves of steel.  Perhaps you could have him practice throwing at this younger brother's or sister's head in the back yard for giggles.  That ought to make the live game situation safer.  By the way, I'll concede probably no outright deaths in the past 50 years, but quite a few careers were effectively ended with a blow to the head or face.  Probably a few ended with a broken wrist or hand that didn't heal just right.  Please don't tell me the kid getting beaned should know how to protect themselves. 

Post of the year!!

joes87 posted:

2020Dad, I differ with you on throwing at a kid.  I used to have your take on it, but as my kids have progressed through the game my stance has changed.  I really don't see any reason to throw at a kid.  I will say there was ont an incident that caused me to change my feelings, but they did evolve over time.

On the football thing, what makes that more of a crime then intentionally attacking, with intent to harm, during a game?  

I agree, you never ever allow a child to hit another child.   Ever. 

This out in California is stupid nuts. Absolutely overblown. And since it's been brought up, the incident in Texas resulted in two players being suspended for the school year from the UIL, but no charges (yet). The assistant coach has pleaded guilty to misdemeanor assault, sentenced to 18 months probation I believe (originally sentenced to 1 year in jail and $3500 fine, but pled down), and has forfeited his teaching certificate forever. I have a hard time believing that this incident in the midst of play was worse...

2020dad posted:

LH and Joes as always respect others opinions but after many years in the game and seeing my son progress - albeit not as far yet - my feelings remain unchanged.  Paul konerko got hit right in the face misreading a fastball as a curveball.  It was ugly but not at all life threatening.   I do find it interesting that the same people (maybe I am wrong) who have no issue with football and its annual deaths purely not intended take issue with a practice that as far as I know has never caused a death since the helmet era.  And again emphasizing throwing at midsection not head.  Not to mention the head is much easier to get out of the way.  Honestly unless you know of some high mortality rate I am unaware of I think your concerns are a bit like worrying about stepping off the curb and getting blindsided by a bus you somehow managed not to see!

2020dad - I respect your opinion but consider that deaths do occur in baseball that you may not be aware of.  Do you know why that all base coaches (only recently in the last few years) wear helmets?  A guy named Mike Coolbaugh was coaching first base a few years back in a AA minor league game and was hit in the neck.  It killed him.  Bud Selig ordered all coaches to wear helmets but ironically, even if Coolbaugh had been wearing a helmet, it would not have saved him.  Several years ago, an esteemed hsbbweb member, friend of mine and many others here named JT (Jeff Taylor) (go to In Memoriam Section of hsbbweb to read about Jeff), was pitching batting practice to his son behind an L-Screen.  He was hit by a batted ball, by his own son, and it killed him. 

My points with these are that baseballs can kill.  Someone gets hit at the right spot (e.g., in the neck) with the right amount of force and it can kill someone.  It does not take someone throwing with Randy Johnson velocity to kill or to permanently maim for life.  All it takes is getting hit in the right spot (e.g., head, neck, face, heart, ribs, spine).  You tell a kid who has not perfected his control to aim for the waist and you have already increased the danger because now the kid has moved the danger zone directly toward the batter.  Moreover, an "errant" pitch with intention to hit gets away from the kid and it goes higher and hits a kid not in the helmet area but the neck area, a major tragedy could occur. 

The risk in baseball obviously is there regardless.  Parents should not be training kids on how to increase the risk.  It is unconscionable for people to even consider this.  Even the Konerko analogy is flawed.  If Konerko had been hit at the right angle on his nose, it could have killed him.  Helmets are not complete protection for hitters.  I urge all parents out there who are reading these threads to never, ever consider suggesting that one kid hit another kid - no matter how much the other kid seems to deserve being hit.  The consequences could be deadly and I am sure people would never forgive themselves if something happened.   

CD is correct. Just the right spot and it can kill.  

Husband got hit with a baseball while at spring training many many years ago, same spot in the face where just justbaseballs son got hit. Doctors told me just a bit to the side and it woulb have been over for him.

So now you have a young player being told to hit the player below the waste, a young player not fully in control trying to hit a younger player not taught to turn away properly to avoid injury.  

Not hard still can cause damage.