For the good of the game, what is the most important level?

Without youth baseball/sports, there wouldn't be any other levels. Take care of the kids, and we will all be better off later on.

JBB,

What a good question! I could be convinced that any of the levels you mentioned are the most important!

I know that my husband and my oldest son both found their love of the game around age 3. Since neither of them was playing at that age, they started loving baseball by watching MLB games.

Hubby lived 4 hours from the brand-new Minnesota Twins team's home field, but watched every game on TV and had the exciting privilege of going to one game every year as a small boy.

Son received a real leather baseball glove in his bassinet at the hospital, and started watching games with Dad on TV as an infant. The first photo we have of him at a Twins game, decked out in Twins jacket and Twins cap with a huge smile on his face, was at age 3. But at the same age, he became obsessed with playing catch and would throw the ball in the air in the backyard for hours if no one was available to play catch. Soon, playing T-ball and LL became even more fun for him than watching baseball. Then followed HS and college baseball, which included some of the most fun experiences of his life, and continued his passion for baseball.

What is the most important level?

Hmmm-m-m-m, can I vote for "all of the above"?

Julie

You left out the over-80 league they have down in Florida. I love those guys - very impressive!

I think all levels are inmportant.
Youth baseball is where you learn to appreciate the game while having fun and to be a team member. I am not going to get into youth travel ball.

HS is where talent seperation begins and should be for all players, regardless of going onto play the next level. Players should make the team because they deserve to make the team, not because they will go onto play at the next level. This is where most players get their last chance.

HS travelball is important for exposure and playing at a different level and intensity that HS ball.

College ball is where talent begins to seperate itself further, and where players learn about time management and growing up away from home and priorities. Memories of a lifetime. For us it was THE best experience (so far), I truely miss it.

Proball is where the seperation continues and where players learn that playing ball is not only a game but big business. It has now become your job and your career.

The over 80 club is important for keeping your sanity over 80.

You need to sew seeds for there to be crops, you need the fruit of the crop to feed the people, you need the flower to sew seeds. It is the cycle of life which holds true in baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by ILVBB:
You need to sew seeds for there to be crops, you need the fruit of the crop to feed the people, you need the flower to sew seeds. It is the cycle of life which holds true in baseball.

Goooood answer!

There's an 80 and over league in Florida? Woohoo, I didn't think I'd be playing into my forties, and now wait till my wife hears this!

When the kids start playing is when baseball fans are made whether they become players or not. It's why I told parents when I ran the 7/8's league let's not turn them off with pressure and inappropriate adult behavior. When the kids start in youth ball they are more likely to become fans than high school players.

You plant the seeds between the ages of 8 and 12

These become the "players" in HS and college

quote:

Originally posted by MN-Mom:
What is the most important level?

Hmmm-m-m-m, can I vote for "all of the above"?

Julie,

When I started writing the first post I was certain I would make the argument for the youth level being most important. By the time I was finished writing about all of them, I found I felt exactly the same way you do. I too would vote for all of them!

TD

justbb, this one is making me think, and that is hard.
My initial reaction was to emphasize the importance of each level.
With more reflection, however, and with the "good of the game" as the focus, I tend to think the most important are the top(MLB/Milb) and the bottom(youth, little league)
In my mind, professional is important because it allows you to visualize the game at it's best and, in my time, created those that youth players would emulate on the field. Professional baseball sets a level where the game is played by the best, where the game we know is so hard is often made to look easy, and where we find players like, for you, the Big Red Machine, to whom we cling as time passes.
So, I feel MLB has a huge role in the "good of the game." Without the Big Red Machine, as an illustration, the game isn't as good.
That is why I often post about the problems I feel Bud and the owners create when they seem to do most everything they can to ruin the game with business.
Youth/LL is at least equally important for most all the reasons already stated. Again, without youth/LL, where it truly is a game, the game isn't as good.
It is my feeling that so long as the top and bottom are healthy, the high school and college will flourish. Without the top and bottom, they won't do nearly as well. High school and college result from the top and bottom and are driven in part by each.
Well, enough thinking for today. I'm exhausted.

infielddad,

I agree with the top and the bottom (youngest) being the most important.

You bring up some very good points.IMO

infielddad,

I agree wholeheartedly with your post. As I read, I was picturing a young boy watching the pros (hopefully with his dad...and maybe his mom!), seeing the beauty of how they play the game, and then enacting the game himself, pretending to be his MiLB or MLB hero.

The little boy I'm picturing doesn't have to be playing on an organized team. He may be acting out all the parts of a the game in his own backyard, throwing the ball up and hitting it, running to the 1B marker (an old glove or a spot of dirt in the grass). "He rounds the bases...he scores!" (Those imaginary outfielders usually don't get the ball in very quickly.) Eventually he has to go retrieve a few baseballs, and then it starts again.

To me, seeing a little boy play like that, for love of the game and with dreams as big as the world, is "for the good of the game", too.

Julie

Wow, Infielddad, that is some powerful thinking.

For me, my love of the game came from the people around me listening to the Orioles. I can remember the games on the radio at my grandfather's butcher shop. I would deliver groceries and the people would be sitting on the porch listening to the game. I can remember my dad, who never watched TV, coming in from the farm and watching the O's play the Pirates in the WS. The O's were a sense of community, a sense of civic pride. You knew who the players were every year, you talked about the kids coming up in the farm system.

My kids loved the Braves, because they watched them every day on TBS. Youth baseball allowed them to act like their heros. The players were larger than life. Flawless athletes to be marveled at.

The recent dirty laundry that has covered MLB and free agency have jaded even the youngest fans. We are a unique community that is personally invested in baseball at every level. The average kid never gets out of little league. So what they see on TV influences them greatly.

I look at the reverence that Billy Crystal, Doris Kearns Goodwin, George Will, and other notable public figures hold for baseball. What is the common denominator for them, it isn't youth baseball, it is there remeberance of watching the Yankees, Red Sox and Orioles of their youth. The sense of community and civic pride. The importance that their local teams played in the lives of their families and friends. Since moving to the Chicago area, I have been reintroduced to that sense, both from the Cubs and Sox.

Baseball is an inherited trait, that is reinforced by environment. It begins with nature and becomes a passion with nurture.

The speech by James Earl Jones in Field of Dreams:

"Ray, people will come Ray. They'll come to Iowa for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll turn up your driveway not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive at your door as innocent as children, longing for the past. Of course, we won't mind if you look around, you'll say. It's only $20 per person. They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it: for it is money they have and peace they lack. And they'll walk out to the bleachers; sit in shirtsleeves on a perfect afternoon. They'll find they have reserved seats somewhere along one of the baselines, where they sat when they were children and cheered their heroes. And they'll watch the game and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The memories will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces. People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again. Oh... people will come Ray. People will most definitely come."


Bud and the owners need to read this quote everyday and understand that they have been entrusted with an American Institution, as important as the Statute of Liberty and the Washington Monument. When the remember that there is more to the game than a business, than the business of baseball will be healthy, again. Playoffs in the daytime, so kids can watch. Players who star on the sports page and not the police blotters. Records that are not influenced by steroids and HGH. Players that are part of the community and not rich mercaneries, that switch allegances yearly.

Great question justbaseball, thanks.

Great post Infielddad.
And a great response from deldad.
Agree with everything you said.
EH

The most important level is the level you are playing ( or watching ) currently

Every piece of the puzzle holds its own specific value towards the total picture.

Good fodder for the brain JBB. All levels are important for different reasons but for baseball to gain strength I think the high school level is the most important. For the most part parents control the lives of the children in their early years of baseball. In these early stages of their lives they are not even asked if they want to play baseball. They are signed up and dressed up by their parents, Mom, Dad Grandma and Grandpa makes Johnny’s baseball games a family event. There is no stress --- no failure --- fans galore and everybody gets a trophy or a ribbon.

Just prior to high school the players migrate to different levels. All players still get to play but they get to select the level and venue at which they want to play. Money starts to impact the game. Parents pull the strings and control 90% of the organization. Baseball is basically designed by each family to fit the needs of the different families. But no matter where they play, youth baseball is a training ground for high school baseball. I can remember the huge challenge of high school baseball looming in the future during the later years of youth baseball.

High School baseball is finally here. Could he make it --- would he be the one called on to help his high school? Man those seniors look so big and so strong. These were “men” and my “boy” was going to be able to try out for that team. This was a big event. This is the first step where it becomes impossible or at least very difficult for parents to “manage” the baseball team. They (parents) know this is the true test of their son’s “talent”. This is the ultimate goal for most of the players in the community. This is serious “business”. Dangerous too. Some players are actually “cut” from the teams. Attitudes emerge. Girls become either supporters or distracters. These are “real” games that count toward something. It's sad that many players cannot play at this level but if it were any different there would be no lure or infatuation. It's a form of tough love. From the ranks of those that are unable to play at the high school level comes another important participant in the game. The baseball fan. A strong high school baseball program plays a dual role in the continuity of youth baseball and supporting the upper echelons of baseball. First it is the final arena for many young players. It validates that they are real athletes and real competitors. People will talk about their accomplishments in high school baseball for years. Two days ago I was at a high school baseball game and a group of parents (unknown to me) asked if my son had actually hit a baseball off the football locker room. I don't remember but at this point it was much more important to them than it was to me. High school baseball "done right" can once again make baseball America's game.

Secondly high school baseball can be a springboard for the very serious wanna be college and pro players. This is where the scouts and college coaches show up. This is where boys become men. A good high school baseball program is VERY important for all players.

Minor leagues have a problem connecting to the community. The players come and go and have no roots to the community. Their names are hard to pronounce and the backgrounds so diverse that both the young members in the community and the young MILB players keep each other at arms length. Marketing becomes a very important part of the game. It seems as if beer is the only thing that lures many of the old high school players back into the park. "Thirsty Thursdays" were always the biggest nights in my son’s MILB parks.

MLB is nothing more than a TV show for most young players. Yes there are some kids that live close to the large metro areas that get to attend MLB games on a regular basis but not many compared to the number of kids playing youth baseball. I noticed when my son was a high school player how the young players looked up to him. To the youngest of players he was just as important to them as any MLB, MILB or college player.

Since I am accused of attacking showcases and camps let this post be no exception. Showcases and camps (and select teams) have emerged as the “correct” way to advance to college or professional baseball. This pulls the players, his parents, their money, and their support away from the high school team and ultimately degrades high school baseball. While showcasing may improve the odds of a player being seen it also shifts the focus of the high school player from his high school team to these “exposure events”. Ever look at the fan base at these “exposure events”? The only fans are Mom and Dad and maybe a girlfriend. Where are the real baseball fans? They are back home wondering what ever happened to the good old days when baseball was an important part of the community.
Fungo

Wow, there are some great observations on this thread. Infielddad really hit home with me.. I remember as a kid "visualizing" the game at the highest level and it was this fantasy that carries the love for the game.

..but in between..

I agree with Fungo that high school is the great separating point for most of these players. But these days, it is the Summer travel team, not high school baseball that is the deal-breaker. Nearly all of these kids now playing high school ball were on good select teams so their skill levels were obvious to the high school coach. In that respect, in between, it is important for a kid to be on a good Summer team.

Fungo, I don't think showcasing and highschool baseball are mutually exclusive. We can remember the "good old days" when scouts came out to the high school ballpark but we have to keep in mind the new reality. There are foreign players coming in, and there is an increased level of competition. Things change, and showcasing gives some kids a chance to get their name out there and compete.

quote:

Originally posted by MN-Mom:
infielddad,

I agree wholeheartedly with your post. As I read, I was picturing a young boy watching the pros (hopefully with his dad...and maybe his mom!), seeing the beauty of how they play the game, and then enacting the game himself, pretending to be his MiLB or MLB hero.

The little boy I'm picturing doesn't have to be playing on an organized team. He may be acting out all the parts of a the game in his own backyard, throwing the ball up and hitting it, running to the 1B marker (an old glove or a spot of dirt in the grass). "He rounds the bases...he scores!" (Those imaginary outfielders usually don't get the ball in very quickly.) Eventually he has to go retrieve a few baseballs, and then it starts again.

To me, seeing a little boy play like that, for love of the game and with dreams as big as the world, is "for the good of the game", too.

Julie

I whole heartedly agree.

My son turns everything into a baseball game. He's 8, and last year while playing summer all stars, one tiny little moment will always be with me. It was the semifinal of the World Series, playing a very tough team, with a couple of umps who were very serious, no joking around with them. My son played pitcher's mound (coach pitch) and in between innings, he got out there fairly quick, before the rest of his team was ready. He got into position as if to pitch, started shaking off calls, then nodded. Looked over his shoulder at first for a steal, then threw the "ball". He waited a half second then threw his hand in the air is if calling an out. By that time, the play was getting ready to restart, but I saw the plate ump watching it all, and this grumpy faced guy just started grinning. It was really fun for me to watch my son playing out the scenario that he's seen so many times from the big leaguers.

Many great Mom/Dad opinions here concerning what the most important level is, but for those kids who have made it through the various levels, what is their opinion. My son felt the first year on the big diamond, hands down. He could actually envision and feel the game he dreamt about on the same scale, and apply those hours of watching and learning from his heroes.

I guess while looking up and dreaming is wonderful for a little guy on the on the small field, applying what you've learned and competing against others on a more physical level has a different feel.

This is a great thread!

I loved playing ball, listening to the O's on hot summer nights while playing curb ball with a spalding. Then on hot summer days we would play stick ball and try to bat left and right. We would pretend to be the Orioles and bat the order Earl had the night before. When Boog was up we batted lefty with that front elbow up ready to get ahold of one.

Anyway, the youth level and community level baseball is The Most Important because to me that is where the LOVE FOR THE GAME is nurtured, in many different ways in many different environments, ie, city life, farm life, island life, etc...

With all that said, I would like to add that those boys/young men that are fortunate enough to play at their HS that if their coach is a good one and actually teaches the game that this could be the most important level depending on the quality of the coach, the absence of Parental Control or lack of strings attached to parent's involvment.

With that said I believe that the Collegiate Level is the King of the Crop baseball and most fun to watch because of the all out play on every pitch. This ballplayer has got to be impacted in a big way by the game given that he gets his degree.

The youngster that first puts on a mitt or picks up a bat or chucks his first pitch and falls in love of the game because that first time was fun could be the single most important time for him as an individual even though he may never play organized ball at any level. Just being a fan is ok too!

I think everyone that is impacted by the game by whatever version influenced them the most is the most important level to them. So every level of this great game is important even the Showcase side of the game as well as the wall ball side and all levels in between.

"see the seams and hit it square" (my 1st coach Mr Ray)

I am a little league president and would love to
say youth/rec ball,but without knowing a single player on either team,I doubt it would get me too fired up after an inning or two.Summer college ball
is some of the true-est form of baseball you can get
in my humble opinion,guys playing a high level of
ball for the love of the game,cozy stadiums,little
to no pay,cheep hotdogs and soda,not to mention easy
access to the players.Just my 2 cents.
On a side note my 11 y/o son would vote for the college world series then LL world series,MLB &
last whoever`s playing now on TV or in person
weather the announcer speaks english or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Wow, there are some great observations on this thread. Infielddad really hit home with me.. I remember as a kid "visualizing" the game at the highest level and it was this fantasy that carries the love for the game.

..but in between..

I agree with Fungo that high school is the great separating point for most of these players. But these days, it is the Summer travel team, not high school baseball that is the deal-breaker. Nearly all of these kids now playing high school ball were on good select teams so their skill levels were obvious to the high school coach. In that respect, in between, it is important for a kid to be on a good Summer team.

Fungo, I don't think showcasing and highschool baseball are mutually exclusive. We can remember the "good old days" when scouts came out to the high school ballpark but we have to keep in mind the new reality. There are foreign players coming in, and there is an increased level of competition. Things change, and showcasing gives some kids a chance to get their name out there and compete.

This has been a great thread and everyone's arguments have been impeccable.

Bum - your point is basically my point. Fungo argued for the middle tier while infielddad and others have argued the lowest and highest tiers as the most important. Thus, it seems obvious to me that all tiers are equally important. If one of them suffers, then the other ones will suffer as well.

The game is played the same at every level. You throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the ball, you get people out, you score runs at every level.
It changes a bit (some rules) as you move up, but in reality the game always remains the same. Therefore the most important level for a player is the one he is at, the one where he develops his tools to progress to the next level.

Learn as much as you can age appropriate, take that and move on to learn and experience more each level, that is IMO what gets you the opportunity. It's about experience and tools and staying healthy. Expand on your talent, for example, as a pitcher learn as much as you can for your arsenal. The more you learn at a younger age and get to practice, the better you become (and be aware of the limits to remain healthy at each age).

Justbaseball asked ---- "What level of baseball is most important for the long term health of the GAME?"

If someone were to ask me what was the most important level for MY SON I would have a completely different answer. High school baseball was the least important phase of his development. Summer teams, showcases, private lessons, his work ethic on and off the field are the things that helped HIS baseball but NOT baseball in general. It's obvious with the declining interest in baseball and the lack of fan support that we're doing something differently (wrong) when it comes to the health of the game. I think the actual GAME of baseball has taken a back seat to individual development between the pre teen years and college baseball. Read the thousand of posts on the HSBBW that say "my son". I'm as guilty as the next person. I LIKE baseball but not nearly as much as I enjoy watching "my son" (did it again) play the game. The choices I made during his "development" were for his benefit and not for the health of baseball. It was much more important to me that there were 3 scouts at his high school game than the number of high school students (fans). What impact would it have made if he had focused his attention to helping a Little League team during the summer during his high school years rather than going off and showcasing or playing from Florida to California? Helping promote baseball in the community is something that would have helped baseball.
Fungo

quote:

........asked if my son had actually hit a baseball off the football locker room.

Those words alone capture the essence of high school baseball...............

An excellent post on high school baseball, Fungo.

Thanks, justbaseball and infielddad, too.

A post that captures high school baseball so well that I think it should be front page material on this website.

And a thread that approaches golden status already.

But, I can also say that I really enjoyed AAA, yesterday..................

Fungo,
Food for thought,....if one betters him/herself, does that not attribute to bettering the game as a whole?
Better umpiring, better coaching, better players?

Kind of like a chef in his own restaraunt. Lets say he can make one mean potatoe pie.
But he gets invited to go down to Louisianna and try some southern pie. He does so. Finds out its pretty good.
Now he has the knowlege to go back home and use what he has learned to make his mean potato pie even better,....and the competition bars have now been raised. The patrons of this chef's restaraunt now get to enjoy the benefits of a more knowlegeable cook.
So while some may say he was selfish for working on improving his recepi,....others are happy and reap the benefits from a more well rounded cook.

( did that make any sense? )

The more each individual betters his/her abilities, the better for the game as a whole, yes?

Lots of good thoughts that all make a lot of sense.

My reason for agreeing with infielddad’s opinion…

The most important level… For the good of the game… Is whatever level that a young player falls in love with the game. For most that is early on, in the beginning stages of involvement. That is why I believe coaches at this level need to understand what is most important. They can be responsible for how much the young kids they lead end up enjoying the game of baseball.

The other thing that is very important… Is all the reasons for falling in love with the game. This would include the things that are most visible, as it helps create and maintain this love for the game. I think we would all agree that the level by far the most visible would be the Major Leagues unless you live in a minor league town or one of the areas where college baseball is a big draw. Even then it is nearly impossible to avoid Major League baseball. It’s in every newspaper every day of the season. It’s all over television, radio, print media and the internet. Those are the players and teams that are followed the closest.

Thus IMO it is the lowest level and the highest level that are most important when it comes to what is in the best interest of baseball.

To go a bit further, it could be any level where a player decides he loves the game. However, in most cases, by the time someone is a travel team player, a high school player, or a college player, he has already made up his mind about the game.

The bottom line IMO… when it’s all said and done… baseball fans are more important than baseball players in regard to what is best for the future of the game.

Now, if we were to ask what is the most important level for the development of an individual player… There could be a good argument made for any level. Personally, I think the most important developmental years are between age 17 and 20 (High School/early college/early pro). It is this belief that makes me think it is so very important to be playing at these ages, rather than watching.

I am finding each and every opinion on this question compelling.

always_late - GREAT story! I can visualize every bit of it in my mind and it brought a great smile to my face!

Fungo that was a great post and one that makes you think.

Still not sure, IMO, which level actually does the most for the health of the game. Fans are very important for the health of the game and having players that bring their talent and integrity to the game brings more fans. MLB and big business has taken away some of the purity and integrity and many fans have turned away in recent years yet youth leagues, HS travel baseball, tournaments and showcases and college baseball is thriving. I can use my own personal experiences with that, as Marlin fans that once attended many, over the years their product they put on teh field has turned us away as well as most down here that used to attend.

Now, with a reason for a renewed interest I am hoping to get back to appreciating the game at the highest level. If I didn't have a reason, I am not so sure how much of an interest I might still have.

I am thinking that all levels need to be intertwined as to preserving the health of the game.

.
Justbaseball....as we have discussed from board to board...

"...for the good of THE GAME"

Not my son, not player development...for the good of the game...

I am big on foundations...in this case the numbers game. I’d argue that the largest factor of baseballs long running and overwhelming success is numbers....I once calculated that a full 80% of the kids in our community played youth baseball/softball. 80%!

I believe strongly that it is all inclusive youth ball as a community “right of passage” has kept baseball solidly as "America’s game". I’ll overstate this, but through steroids, strikes, candlestick like stadiums...what kept this thing going was the family/community/generational connection with the game built on community youth ball The vast majority become fans at some level, the vast majority think of baseball as the cornerstone of their own kids youth sports. No other sports come close and that is why baseball continues to hold its edge...at least it has until now.

AS others have posted..."Sowing the seeds of baseball love, generation after generation..."

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Great picture...

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