Foul Tip/3rd Strike Tigers Game

The U1 was the one that made the call so that is who Leland was yakking at, therefore he does the ejection.

quote:

Originally posted by otownmike:
Hey I'm back and not better than ever....so I get it that you defer to the 1B ump on this call foul tip catch/no catch but I also wonder why they couldn't get together with 2B ump since he was inside with a man on 2nd and that much closer to the play. The ball was clearly caught on replay and while I am not promoting replay in the post I am promoting getting it right. 2nd base ump has straight look-in view at 60-65 feet while 1B is more than 90 feet away from the play. Then 1B ump throws out Leyland, not plate ump? Crazy....

You answered your own question.
U2 was straight-lined. U1 had the angle.

Rough year for umpires named Welke.

Jimmy's right-on here. Given the choice between angle and distance, I'll tane angle anytime.
1B OUGHT to have had the best look, but clearly did NOT.

quote:

Originally posted by otownmike:
2nd base ump has straight look-in view at 60-65 feet while 1B is more than 90 feet away from the play. Then 1B ump throws out Leyland, not plate ump? Crazy....

2nd base ump was not at the back of the mound there was a runner on second only so second base ump is 145 feet or so away 1st is probably 110 feet. This is a tough call mostly has to be sound.
Nelson made the call and went for help unfortunately both wrong, the human part of the game

I'm not so sure the call was wrong. One angle of video replay shows the ball hitting glove, then coming out slightly and hitting dirt and then secured by glove. Bang/bang/bang.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
I'm not so sure the call was wrong. One angle of video replay shows the ball hitting glove, then coming out slightly and hitting dirt and then secured by glove. Bang/bang/bang.

Jimmy, I beg to differ on the bang/bang/bang. I saw it live from the Red Sox feed. It was a catch for me real time from the centerfield camera.

NESN had at least three different angles and they all showed the call was wrong. Even the Red Sox announcers were admitting how bad a call it was and how lucky the Sox were.

NESN had an angle down the first base line that clearly showed the glove under the ball, the puff of dirt from beneath the glove, but the clear fact the ball was caught.

Why did that umpire decided that was the call to run in and overturn? He wasn't asked, he just did and he blew it.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
I'm not so sure the call was wrong. One angle of video replay shows the ball hitting glove, then coming out slightly and hitting dirt and then secured by glove. Bang/bang/bang.

Jimmy, I beg to differ on the bang/bang/bang. I saw it live from the Red Sox feed. It was a catch for me real time from the centerfield camera.

Yes, I saw that angle too and it did look like a catch. The description I gave is from the camera beyond the first base dugout, which would be close to U1's angle.

Oh, and PU did look down to U1 for help.

C'Mon Jimmy....U1 stepped in between Leyland an PU so he wouldn't really go off and maybe bump him...then he gets involved and takes his "rabbit ears with him back to B1....as far as an angle I guess I can live with that one as straight on may have been harder to see if it hit dirt. Adittionally why not inspect the ball? Would n't it have shown scuff/dirt mark? Seems like they did not do that.

quote:

Originally posted by otownmike:
C'Mon Jimmy....U1 stepped in between Leyland an PU so he wouldn't really go off and maybe bump him...then he gets involved and takes his "rabbit ears with him back to B1....as far as an angle I guess I can live with that one

??? What does this have to do with any of your claims. I had not addressed anything but the view from the dugout camera and PU looking to U1 for help on the call.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
I'm not so sure the call was wrong. One angle of video replay shows the ball hitting glove, then coming out slightly and hitting dirt and then secured by glove. Bang/bang/bang.

Jimmy, I beg to differ on the bang/bang/bang. I saw it live from the Red Sox feed. It was a catch for me real time from the centerfield camera.

NESN had at least three different angles and they all showed the call was wrong. Even the Red Sox announcers were admitting how bad a call it was and how lucky the Sox were.

NESN had an angle down the first base line that clearly showed the glove under the ball, the puff of dirt from beneath the glove, but the clear fact the ball was caught.

Why did that umpire decided that was the call to run in and overturn? He wasn't asked, he just did and he blew it.

1. I've finally had time to review the video again and I see that even though the ball did not bounce from the mitt at the catch, it bounced only to the front of the mitt and did not leave the mitt. The umpires clearly erred.

2. The PU did indeed go for help. You can see that beginning at 0:07 in the video as he is squeezed by the catcher and batter he looks down to first and as he gets an opening he more clearly asks for help. This is why U1 got involved. I think he saw the same thing I did, the ball going into the glove than appearing again. From his distance, that could easily have appeared that it came out of the glove.

Watching it live it appeared HU made a call and was interrupted / over ruled by the first base ump. I saw countless replays during the game, but they admittedly avoided much more than the ball & glove moment and not the actions of the umpires.

I have some old browser that doesn't seem to like MLB.com, so without a link I can't seem to get to video's to watch the whole thing again.

If he asked for help, then so be it. Watching live it didn't appear that way.

I'm a die hard Red Sox fan, so I'm not exactly complaining, just observing and learning.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by otownmike:
C'Mon Jimmy....U1 stepped in between Leyland an PU so he wouldn't really go off and maybe bump him...then he gets involved and takes his "rabbit ears with him back to B1....as far as an angle I guess I can live with that one

??? What does this have to do with any of your claims. I had not addressed anything but the view from the dugout camera and PU looking to U1 for help on the call.

I was speaking of U1 tossing Leyland from behind first base when he was really making his comments to the PU. Even when Leyland went out U1 was more of a buffer as he was really after the PU....then from the dugout he was still getting on them some...(PU & U3) I don't have an issue with him getting tossed. My issue is why U1 is doing it instead of PU who is definitely the one taking it from Leyland while in the 3rd base dugout...U1 is more than 100 feet away....that is just bad umpiring. That is what I am talking about. It was a close call, it then led to three runs as there were two outs. Some chatter from the dugout is to be expected.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by otownmike:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by otownmike:
C'Mon Jimmy....U1 stepped in between Leyland an PU so he wouldn't really go off and maybe bump him...then he gets involved and takes his "rabbit ears with him back to B1....as far as an angle I guess I can live with that one

??? What does this have to do with any of your claims. I had not addressed anything but the view from the dugout camera and PU looking to U1 for help on the call.

I was speaking of U1 tossing Leyland from behind first base when he was really making his comments to the PU. Even when Leyland went out U1 was more of a buffer as he was really after the PU....then from the dugout he was still getting on them some...(PU & U3) I don't have an issue with him getting tossed. My issue is why U1 is doing it instead of PU who is definitely the one taking it from Leyland while in the 3rd base dugout...U1 is more than 100 feet away....that is just bad umpiring. That is what I am talking about. It was a close call, it then led to three runs as there were two outs. Some chatter from the dugout is to be expected.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Well, for future reference, when you're introducing new material to a conversation, it would be appropriate to NOT start it with "C'mon Jimmy..." which makes it appear that I said something disagreeable with your point, when in fact I never addressed or even though about it.

I have no idea why U1 tossed Leyland. I didn't hear what Leyland said, or to whom. I do know he has a history of throwing out extremely derogatory comments and then playing the "Who? ME?" game. While some coaches are known as "Rats", Leyland's behavior has earned him the nickname of Weasel with some umpires.

But like I said, I don't know what happened this time. I doubt anyone who was not there does.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
Watching it live it appeared HU made a call and was interrupted / over ruled by the first base ump.

The PU was blocked and immediately looked to U1 for help (and he immediately got it). No one overruled anyone. It's also against the rules.

C'Mon Jimmy....U1 stepped in between Leyland an PU so he wouldn't really go off and maybe bump him...then he gets involved and takes his "rabbit ears with him back to B1....as far as an angle I guess I can live with that one [/QUOTE]

??? What does this have to do with any of your claims. I had not addressed anything but the view from the dugout camera and PU looking to U1 for help on the call.

I was speaking of U1 tossing Leyland from behind first base when he was really making his comments to the PU. Even when Leyland went out U1 was more of a buffer as he was really after the PU....then from the dugout he was still getting on them some...(PU & U3) I don't have an issue with him getting tossed. My issue is why U1 is doing it instead of PU who is definitely the one taking it from Leyland while in the 3rd base dugout...U1 is more than 100 feet away....that is just bad umpiring. That is what I am talking about. It was a close call, it then led to three runs as there were two outs. Some chatter from the dugout is to be expected.

I have no idea what you are talking about.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Well, for future reference, when you're introducing new material to a conversation, it would be appropriate to NOT start it with "C'mon Jimmy..." which makes it appear that I said something disagreeable with your point, when in fact I never addressed or even though about it.

I have no idea why U1 tossed Leyland. I didn't hear what Leyland said, or to whom. I do know he has a history of throwing out extremely derogatory comments and then playing the "Who? ME?" game. While some coaches are known as "Rats", Leyland's behavior has earned him the nickname of Weasel with some umpires.

But like I said, I don't know what happened this time. I doubt anyone who was not there does.[/QUOTE]

Upon review I should have inluded Michael since it was his post on U1 throwing out Leyland...your reply is predictable but you know umpiring and the game well. "Some umpires refer to him as a weasel,", whatever...I am a Cardinal fan so Leyaland I can take or leave, but I respect Leyland's tenure of 20+ years of managing, one of only seven managers to win penants in both leagues, and a World Series Champs manager. I am sure he has a few pet nicknames for some umpires as well. I do like what he said in his interview, "everyone has to be accountable."

I respect Leyland, his abilities and record as well. You asked why he would be ejected by U1, I provided one possibility, his proclivity for taking shots, often loud enough to be heard by all umpires,and then pleading innocent.

If you don't want answers, you shouldn't ask questions.

Everyone has to be accountable and that includes umpires

quote:

Originally posted by otownmike:

I was speaking of U1 tossing Leyland from behind first base when he was really making his comments to the PU. Even when Leyland went out U1 was more of a buffer as he was really after the PU....then from the dugout he was still getting on them some...(PU & U3) I don't have an issue with him getting tossed. My issue is why U1 is doing it instead of PU who is definitely the one taking it from Leyland while in the 3rd base dugout...U1 is more than 100 feet away....that is just bad umpiring

My guess is (and it is a guess) Leyland was never getting on the PU. The mitt was slapped on the dirt just before the pitch arrived (muddling the "sound" evidence) and PU had no view of it. He looked to U1 for help right away - absolutely the correct procedure and without a doubt pre-gamed by this crew many times before. Leyland knew PU's foul call was based on what he got from U1, so that's who he was chirping at.

I'm sure U1's ears were not in the dugout either (especially if he had doubt as to whether he got the call right) but rather, Leyland's voice was on the field and carrying well beyond 1st base. He said the wrong thing and had to go.

As far as umpires being accountable, WTF does that mean? U1 got one wrong. From 100 feet away, he couldn't tell whether a 3-inch baseball, traveling at 85+ mph - and deflected in it's last 2 feet of flight - hit the dirt first or hit the web of the catcher's mitt. Another perfect game down the drain.

An incorrect decision does not always equate to "bad umpiring." It was a tough call. 50-50. I'm cutting the guy some slack.

I really don't understand this whole exchange. The PU wasn't sure, the BU made a call, or at least he gave the PU the information, therefore Leland directed his comments toward him I'm sure. He talked to U3 because he was the CC. Whether Leland directed his comments to the PU or the U1, they were meant for U1.

quote:

Originally posted by otownmike:
Everyone has to be accountable and that includes umpires

And, they are.

I'll get off of this with reply but Jimmy is ultimately right in that we do not know what the exchange was, however with our experience in knowing the game figuring it out/having an educated opinion isn't rocket science.

Dash's reply that U1 is 100 feet away and deserves a break, I agree and that is why I think Leyland was really going after the PU and U1 stepped in. In MLB if it is questionable about any pitch hitting the dirt the ball is tossed out so we have to think the ball would have shown dirt/scuff mark if it hit the ground before going in the glove yet nobody checked the ball. Also I belive PU should have made the toss on Leyland since it was his call and he deferred.

1. There is no way U1 would have tossed Leyland if he was barking at thee PU.

2. PU would have been the ejecting umpire if Leyland was directed his comments to him.

Agreed, Leland had to have been barking at U1. The only way I could see if the U1 would throw a coach for barking at the PU is if U1 is the CC and he was at third.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
The only way I could see if the U1 would throw a coach for barking at the PU is if U1 is the CC and he was at third.

I don't think so. Those guys take care of their own business.

Can't agree with it fellas....U1 is 35 yards away (over 100 feet), not counting the distance from home plate to 3rd base dugout, and the crowd noise, yet he knows Leyland is barking at him? No way....I am sure he just didn't like it that Leyland said something to him when he stepped in between Leyland arguing the call with the PU, then didn't like his gesturing from his vantage point and tossed him. I didn't like the way it was handled.

quote:

Originally posted by otownmike:
Can't agree with it fellas....U1 is 35 yards away (over 100 feet), not counting the distance from home plate to 3rd base dugout, and the crowd noise, yet he knows Leyland is barking at him? No way....I am sure he just didn't like it that Leyland said something to him when he stepped in between Leyland arguing the call with the PU, then didn't like his gesturing from his vantage point and tossed him. I didn't like the way it was handled.

It doesn't sound like you've seen a video of the full play. U1 got involved at the invitation of the PU. Leyland was ****ed at U1's call and was addressing U1. It isn't hard to hear over the line comments from the third baseline dugout. It was handled professionally and deemed "appropriate" by MLB. (not umpires) That says it for me.