Has anyone looked into what happens when you swing keeping your front shoulder elevated?
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Two guys that come to mind with 'elevated front shoulders' in their batting stance are Rod Carew and Ichiro Suzuki.
Power is sacrificed for better vision and the ability to 'spray' the ball around the whole park.
Carew, like Ted Williams, was said to have exceptional eye sight.
Power is sacrificed for better vision and the ability to 'spray' the ball around the whole park.
Carew, like Ted Williams, was said to have exceptional eye sight.
The results that I have seen are more bombs going yard. The creation of more backspin, and an increased ability to turn on an inside pitch.
I hope you have great success with that stance.
Power hitters that I have seen using a stance similar end up seeing high inside strikes above their hands that they can't touch.
Sounds like an excellent stance against a sinker/slider type pitcher.
Power hitters that I have seen using a stance similar end up seeing high inside strikes above their hands that they can't touch.
Sounds like an excellent stance against a sinker/slider type pitcher.
I believe that a high inside strike is difficult for anyone, however I did not mention anything about premature extension.
The pitches he is driving are middle in to inside. Nice short stroke, out in front.
My son always began with his shoulder slightly elevated, however when he would load it would drop slightly. His adjustment is just to maintain his shoulder a bit higher, but the results left him shaking his head in disbelief.
The pitches he is driving are middle in to inside. Nice short stroke, out in front.
My son always began with his shoulder slightly elevated, however when he would load it would drop slightly. His adjustment is just to maintain his shoulder a bit higher, but the results left him shaking his head in disbelief.
could it be from staying on the plane longer? I'd imagine every MLB hitter that hits for power has an elevated front shoulder at contact.
I know there are a bunch of members here who have the Ted Williams swing plane illustration. Seems to me that in order to get on the plane, physics dictates that the body has to have some degree of front shoulder elevation.
I know there are a bunch of members here who have the Ted Williams swing plane illustration. Seems to me that in order to get on the plane, physics dictates that the body has to have some degree of front shoulder elevation.
This will sacrifice bat speed. If you can get on base with reduced bat speed, I guess it's OK.
Typically, the front shoulder is (slightly) down, then as you swing, the shoulders reverse position (up vs. down) as you powerfully rotate your torso.
Typically, the front shoulder is (slightly) down, then as you swing, the shoulders reverse position (up vs. down) as you powerfully rotate your torso.
My understanding is that this has increased his bat speed.
His instructor would never do anything that would jeopardize bat speed!
His instructor would never do anything that would jeopardize bat speed!
Can you post a picture of what you are talking about please. I'd love to see it.
Sorry, but both he and his instructor are out of town and being in his 20's works his own schedule. I don't get to see the action much anymore.
But, it is not a huge change. He just keeps his shoulder elevated through the swing. It apparently creates a shorter path to an inside pitch.
But, it is not a huge change. He just keeps his shoulder elevated through the swing. It apparently creates a shorter path to an inside pitch.
quote:Originally posted by NDD:
Can you post a picture of what you are talking about please. I'd love to see it.
I second this request. I'm having a hard time figuring out what's being described. I can understand it as a thought, but I don't think it's reality.
I will see what I can do. But it is reality. My son can feel the difference and see the results. It was a very intentional tweak in his swing by his long time instructor to achieve more power, and more home runs, since he is being given the opportunity to advance as a 3rd Baseman.
It doesn't have to be your son, although that would be great.
http://www.break.com/longtail-...some-long-balls.html
I know that Guerrero is someone that may be an example, although he lacks plate discipline.
If you can slow these down they may show a high shoulder at finish. I see Guerrero's chin on his shoulder at finish in one of these, but I can't slow it down.
It looks like Ryan Howard keeps his shoulder high during the load.
Pujols may be a better example.
And it is a feel thing, elevating slightly the front shoulder does not mean that the body is upright. But the shoulder is to remain elevated during loading. That is the key cue, keep the front shoulder slightly elevated while loading.
After that... Well he finishes high... But in between...
I know that Guerrero is someone that may be an example, although he lacks plate discipline.
If you can slow these down they may show a high shoulder at finish. I see Guerrero's chin on his shoulder at finish in one of these, but I can't slow it down.
It looks like Ryan Howard keeps his shoulder high during the load.
Pujols may be a better example.
And it is a feel thing, elevating slightly the front shoulder does not mean that the body is upright. But the shoulder is to remain elevated during loading. That is the key cue, keep the front shoulder slightly elevated while loading.
After that... Well he finishes high... But in between...
Ah so. Now I think I get you. yes, we do this. Chin buried in front deltoid. Front elbow back behind the sternum and above the letters. Lock it in and turn until it's time to let it go. Am I on track?
I think a lot of people look at video and misinterpret what causes what they think they see. For example when a RH hitter is seen from the 1B side in video, many times what people think is a lowering or moving of one body part is actually anterior tilt and scap loading. Many people confuse scap loading and hand movement. Cause and effect.
I think a lot of people look at video and misinterpret what causes what they think they see. For example when a RH hitter is seen from the 1B side in video, many times what people think is a lowering or moving of one body part is actually anterior tilt and scap loading. Many people confuse scap loading and hand movement. Cause and effect.
I do think you have caught on to the general idea.
Again, I am hearing from the instructor, and my son. I have yet to see what it all looks like. I do know that the results should get him significantly more HR's.
It does involve keeping that front shoulder up, as opposed to burying the chin down...
The goal is to have it down by ST, and hopefully give the club something to think about.
Again, I am hearing from the instructor, and my son. I have yet to see what it all looks like. I do know that the results should get him significantly more HR's.
It does involve keeping that front shoulder up, as opposed to burying the chin down...
The goal is to have it down by ST, and hopefully give the club something to think about.
yeah, burying the chin is just our cue. The real key is to get the front elbow behind the sternum and above the letters. In our world it has to do with the "C" in PCR. "P" as well of course.
I agree, once we get this part right, power seemed to come. He hit a ball the other day that hit in the infield dirt (back of it at the edge of the grass) for the first time in I don't know how long. It was crushed and a hit. When he got to first we both laughed. First one in a long time. All the rest have been in the OF or over the fence.
Best of luck.
I agree, once we get this part right, power seemed to come. He hit a ball the other day that hit in the infield dirt (back of it at the edge of the grass) for the first time in I don't know how long. It was crushed and a hit. When he got to first we both laughed. First one in a long time. All the rest have been in the OF or over the fence.
Best of luck.
Oddly enough we are not PCR adherents. Very much focused on "hands" and power line.
Perhaps there is common ground...
Perhaps there is, lol!
He's been hitting for good average and contact thus far, but not much power.
I hope he maintains good plate coverage.
I hope he maintains good plate coverage.
quote:It looks like Ryan Howard keeps his shoulder high during the load.
I know that Guerrero is someone that may be an example
Ryan Howard does not have his front shoulder up during load/stride. Vlad's shoulder is closer to even, but is still slightly down in the stance, then goes further down during the stride.
Maybe there is one MLB player that does this, but I don't know of one.
The rotating torso creates (helps,assists, etc. depending on your swing theory) the power in the swing.
The front shoulder goes down during the stride (this is why you should never use a chin cue), then rotates up during the swing. Early bat speed is created by elements of this downward drive of the back shoulder/elbow/forearm.
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quote:Has anyone looked into what happens when you swing keeping your front shoulder elevated?
Maybe I'm confused about what you are saying. But if you are talking about elevating your front shoulder (above the back shoulder) during the stance or stride, that would not be good advice.
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Maybe his front shoulder has been too far down, and his coach is simply telling him to bring it up some.
No where did I indicate raising the front shoulder above the back shoulder. The point is to not drop the front shoulder while loading.
Any advice that my son has received from this gentleman has resulted in my son being drafted and being a leading hitter in the White Sox Minor Leagues. So, I am not interested in questioning his instruction. However, I did think I would share it for discussion, so it is alright to criticize and question the approach.
Any advice that my son has received from this gentleman has resulted in my son being drafted and being a leading hitter in the White Sox Minor Leagues. So, I am not interested in questioning his instruction. However, I did think I would share it for discussion, so it is alright to criticize and question the approach.
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
No where did I indicate raising the front shoulder above the back shoulder.
I told you I was probably confused
quote:The point is to not drop the front shoulder while loading.
When you say 'loading' are you including the stride, or movement forward?
If so, as far as the approach goes, I think most/all MLB hitters slightly lower their front shoulder during this move. (See Ryan Howard or Pujols below)
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Again, maybe he dips his shoulder a little too much and his instructor is trying to get him to smooth it out a little. It sounds like his advice worked out beautifully.
The video clip you show here is a perfect example of what he is teaching.
I know that there is a slight dip in this clip, but generally the front shoulder stays up. At least it appears that way to me.
The verbal cue, and what results are not always the same, to your point of dropping too much, and correcting that mistake, by saying keep the front shoulder up.
I know there was a dramatic difference in production after he made the adjustment. Line drives became more elevated and carried better.
I know that there is a slight dip in this clip, but generally the front shoulder stays up. At least it appears that way to me.
The verbal cue, and what results are not always the same, to your point of dropping too much, and correcting that mistake, by saying keep the front shoulder up.
I know there was a dramatic difference in production after he made the adjustment. Line drives became more elevated and carried better.
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
Perhaps there is, lol!
like water and oil.
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
No where did I indicate raising the front shoulder above the back shoulder. The point is to not drop the front shoulder while loading.
Any advice that my son has received from this gentleman has resulted in my son being drafted and being a leading hitter in the White Sox Minor Leagues. So, I am not interested in questioning his instruction. However, I did think I would share it for discussion, so it is alright to criticize and question the approach.
We call it counter-rotating. Not good with the shoulders.
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
The video clip you show here is a perfect example of what he is teaching.
I know that there is a slight dip in this clip, but generally the front shoulder stays up. At least it appears that way to me.
The verbal cue, and what results are not always the same, to your point of dropping too much, and correcting that mistake, by saying keep the front shoulder up.
I know there was a dramatic difference in production after he made the adjustment. Line drives became more elevated and carried better.
This is what I was talking about before with video. I think most of what looks like a "dip" is anterior tilt and scap loading. That is an excellent clip. Looking at it from different angles usually will give a better idea of what he is actually doing. Part of it is also what we call sitting into the turn.
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
Oddly enough we are not PCR adherents. Very much focused on "hands" and power line.
Could you explain this statement with regards to the swing? When you say focused on the hands- In what way(ques?) And the Power Line can u explain that to me, very interested
Hey patriots1980
Generally when people speak of PCR (Posture, Connection, Rotation), they are focusing in on the Rotational Swing. This means to many adherents that there is connectivity in the upper half of the body including the arms, and as the core and lower half rotate the arms hold the bat in the proper position to make contact with the ball as it enters “the hitting zone”.
Since this is not a technique that we ever adopted, I may be missing some nuanced aspect of the swing.
The swing that my son has been taught by two different instructors, the first from the age of 9-13, then the second age 14 to present age 23 is a swing that begins at the ground level and builds from there.
Balance is the first key that he learned, balance and being under control throughout the swing to the finish. If he was not able to hold his balance and freeze on the finish, he was not in a correct position and was required to repeat that until he could swing at full speed and freeze at the finish while maintaining his balance. He was taught to hit with a closed front foot.
His weight transfer has been your typical 60/40 or 70/30. He was taught to stay back and “read” pitches. Taught to keep his weight back as long as possible and then explode.
He was taught to throw his weight into the direction the ball was to be hit. In other words, on a pitch on the outer half he was to drive that ball to right center. And, his weight should go to right center too. If he was not supposed to be running to first, the momentum of his weight transfer would take his body to right center, following the ball.
He was taught that his hands begin the swing (antithetical to PCR), he was taught to have a trigger mechanism similar to Gary Sheffield (who also took instruction from this gentleman) although not as dramatically as Sheffield’s. This trigger begins the swing. Everything else is staying back. All his weight is still back. The thought here is that the bat in motion is much quicker than a bat starting from a stopped position. He has been taught to make late adjustments with his hands. It has always been about the hands…Trust your hands…hands to the ball… Not “throw your hands at the ball”! DRIVE your hands through the ball! Don’t be confused by that. We are not throwing hands or “casting”. His swing is short and compact and quick.
The powerline is the finish. At finish, the front leg should be posting, front foot closed as best as it can be, Torso to the head should be in a line from the posting leg. If the powerline is correct, then the hitter will have had to do many things correctly. Getting to the powerline and being able to hold and freeze on that finish was a key aspect to what he was taught.
I will post a video link of him when he was 17. I only have it with Pujols alongside him, put together about 5 or 6 years ago by someone who often posted in this thread. I am not posting it to compare my son to Pujols. Please do not mistake that. Pujols has 6” and 60 pounds on him back when this was done, quicker bat speed and probably some other key things as well. I did not request that the "oldtimer" poster compare him to Pujols, I just asked him to look at his swing and this was what he gave back to me along with his notes, many years ago.
I will also post a link that highlights some of the ideas directly from their website. This instructor played a dozen years in the major leagues and has had 20-30 players he has taught go through his instruction make it into professional baseball. Some current Major Leaguers still see him, and JD Drew and Stephen Drew to name a couple credit him with their success. He has been teaching hitting for 30 years now...
http://www.myspace.com/playlik...eId%22%3A28372665%7D
http://doylebaseball.com/Certi...TeachingHitting.aspx
The doyle site is very basic regarding what they teach, in fact this page is more of a visual aid to train their instructors. One on one it gets very in depth and more intense. My son has been seeing Denny Doyle one on one since he was 14 or 15.
Generally when people speak of PCR (Posture, Connection, Rotation), they are focusing in on the Rotational Swing. This means to many adherents that there is connectivity in the upper half of the body including the arms, and as the core and lower half rotate the arms hold the bat in the proper position to make contact with the ball as it enters “the hitting zone”.
Since this is not a technique that we ever adopted, I may be missing some nuanced aspect of the swing.
The swing that my son has been taught by two different instructors, the first from the age of 9-13, then the second age 14 to present age 23 is a swing that begins at the ground level and builds from there.
Balance is the first key that he learned, balance and being under control throughout the swing to the finish. If he was not able to hold his balance and freeze on the finish, he was not in a correct position and was required to repeat that until he could swing at full speed and freeze at the finish while maintaining his balance. He was taught to hit with a closed front foot.
His weight transfer has been your typical 60/40 or 70/30. He was taught to stay back and “read” pitches. Taught to keep his weight back as long as possible and then explode.
He was taught to throw his weight into the direction the ball was to be hit. In other words, on a pitch on the outer half he was to drive that ball to right center. And, his weight should go to right center too. If he was not supposed to be running to first, the momentum of his weight transfer would take his body to right center, following the ball.
He was taught that his hands begin the swing (antithetical to PCR), he was taught to have a trigger mechanism similar to Gary Sheffield (who also took instruction from this gentleman) although not as dramatically as Sheffield’s. This trigger begins the swing. Everything else is staying back. All his weight is still back. The thought here is that the bat in motion is much quicker than a bat starting from a stopped position. He has been taught to make late adjustments with his hands. It has always been about the hands…Trust your hands…hands to the ball… Not “throw your hands at the ball”! DRIVE your hands through the ball! Don’t be confused by that. We are not throwing hands or “casting”. His swing is short and compact and quick.
The powerline is the finish. At finish, the front leg should be posting, front foot closed as best as it can be, Torso to the head should be in a line from the posting leg. If the powerline is correct, then the hitter will have had to do many things correctly. Getting to the powerline and being able to hold and freeze on that finish was a key aspect to what he was taught.
I will post a video link of him when he was 17. I only have it with Pujols alongside him, put together about 5 or 6 years ago by someone who often posted in this thread. I am not posting it to compare my son to Pujols. Please do not mistake that. Pujols has 6” and 60 pounds on him back when this was done, quicker bat speed and probably some other key things as well. I did not request that the "oldtimer" poster compare him to Pujols, I just asked him to look at his swing and this was what he gave back to me along with his notes, many years ago.
I will also post a link that highlights some of the ideas directly from their website. This instructor played a dozen years in the major leagues and has had 20-30 players he has taught go through his instruction make it into professional baseball. Some current Major Leaguers still see him, and JD Drew and Stephen Drew to name a couple credit him with their success. He has been teaching hitting for 30 years now...
http://www.myspace.com/playlik...eId%22%3A28372665%7D
http://doylebaseball.com/Certi...TeachingHitting.aspx
The doyle site is very basic regarding what they teach, in fact this page is more of a visual aid to train their instructors. One on one it gets very in depth and more intense. My son has been seeing Denny Doyle one on one since he was 14 or 15.
floridafan,
Looking at the video of your son, yes: there is common ground. As I suspected, the "argument" is semantics and cues. Nice PCR swing.
Looking at the video of your son, yes: there is common ground. As I suspected, the "argument" is semantics and cues. Nice PCR swing.
quote:Originally posted by NDD:
floridafan,
Looking at the video of your son, yes: there is common ground. As I suspected, the "argument" is semantics and cues. Nice PCR swing.
keep Bee ssss ing yourself.lol
