Future of International Baseball

Great thread, Quincy. Although baseball was dropped as an Olympic sport I don't see the Olympics as validating the sport, do you?

Baseball will grow, and has grown, because it such a pure, strategic game. I believe it only a matter of exposure: Once kids play the game, they develop a passion for it, as evidenced by the great participation in the Latin American countries.

Babe Ruth participated in the early quest to internationalize the game with his tour of Japan pre-World War II. He was a hero to a Japan populace bent on empire, and the death and destruction of that great conflict little diminished their fervor for the game. It has become the national sport of Japan as well, rising in popularity to the level of the parlor game, Pachenko.

I believe baseball will eventually become the great international sport, and in the meantime will be annointed once again as an Olympic sport.. despite the short-sightedness of the current committee, a group of men with a decidedly European point-of-view (not surprising since it was the British who championed the resurrection of the post-modern Olympics).

Have hope. It is the greatest game on Earth, and we are the ambassadors. In the meantime, we will grit our teeth after each "Goooooooaaaaaaallll...".

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Since baseball has been dropped from future Olympic Games, I wonder if the growing international interest will come to an abrupt end.

Maybe not. Remember the World Baseball Classic? It's coming around again next spring. It might be better if it came around more often then every 4 years.

An Olympic Gold medal is the ultimate in athletic competition. International validation as an Olympic Sport was promoting baseball, almost forcing nations to compete that ordinarily haven't.

Olympic competition is no longer amateur athletics but the biggest international professional stage. Basketball and its convenient schedule has allowed the greatest stars of the game to become ambassadors of this nation and others in promoting the NBA.

Considering that the Olympics and the possibility to represent your nation in international play only happens in four year intervals, MLB and the MLBPA could have made concessions to the national team. Probably the saddest occurence was USA being eliminated in the qualifiers and not making the Olympics in 2004.

Some claim that the greatest honor is the chance to represent your nation on the world stage. Apparently this does not apply to baseball at the professional level.

Baseball will survive and prosper in the world. As long as we continue to pay any price to attend games or watch them on some outlet, MLB will continue to gather the best players in the world to compete in the guise of teams representing cities in the USA.

Baseball is a wonderful game.

re: European baseball

The Netherlands and Italy maintain consistent and fairly high quality national baseball organizations.

Otherwise, Baseball's core European challenges are:

1.) Inability to pull top athletes.

2.) No sandlots, i.e. pick-up games, compared to basketball.

3.) No regular TV of local teams, except for the Dutch.

4.) No reach into the public housing projects, much like the U.S.

That said, MLB has a clear presence here at the "premier" european leagues. They run two week academy/camps for 50-60 talented teeangers each summer in Tirrenia, Italy. I'm told a few south africans also attend these camps.

20-25 players from these camps have signed minor league contracts. From a talent viewpoint, think of these euro players of being top D3 talent.

A Belgian player signed with the Mets last month.

The French have also sent at least one player to the US for the last several years.

Newest french player signs with Twins.

Note: The new Twin's signee played at the best local stadium in France.

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A few "Observer-ations"...

- Don't fool yourself, Dropping baseball from the Olympics has more to do with politics than world wide popularity and profile.

- Tell me that current Olympic sports of Curling, white water Kyaking, team handball, luge, ski jumping, or BMX biking are more popular, high profile or widespread on an international level.

- And don't even get me started on the "Olympic Value" of Bridge, Chess, Sumo, Korfball, Wushu(?),Bandy (?), Boules (?) which are now OFFICIALLY "recognized Olympic sports". Who is better known worldwide Derek Jeter or Henriët Brandsma (Korfball world champion).

- IMO, Baseball is healthy and growing on an international level...Olympic politics bear no relationship to the health of the game worldwide.

- IMHO..The Olympic fates of both baseball and softball are tied closely. With no other real high profile venue for Women softball players beyond college ball, I assure you that the national and international softball organizations will not take this as a K. IT is bigger than an issue of sport it is a women's issue and it will be approached as such. The tide of softball will indeed sweep baseball back in IF baseball cannot manage to do so on it's own.

- As MLB takes on more international players, the American players who want to continue their careers will increasingly be forced/choose to go overseas...giving baseball there a boost and an energizing Americian presence. Having played/respresented sport overseas I assure you that the world loves American athletes no matter what you read.

Not to worry, temporary situation...

44
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When I was a boy I would tape a Folgers can (with the top and bottom cut out) to the door in my bedroom. My brother and I would play games where we would throw a tin foil ball threw it.

I never in a million years thought it would become an Olympic Sport.




Dam, I could have been a KORFball Olympian.

44;

For 25 years, we have been involved in International Baseball. During the previous World Games, 45 players from all countries had played in our Goodwill Series events.

Next year, we will have a Goodwill Series event in Cooperstown. We have invited China, Japan, Australia, Holland, Latin America and Italy.

Our American team [host team] will be selected from our Australia trip this year and from pro scouts.

International baseball will continue to expand.

Today are 96 countries playing baseball.

Bob Williams

Of course the politics of the Olympics had much to do with it, and MLB's lack of cooperation with the Olympic Committee finished the job. But with the timing of the pro season, it's difficult to see what MLB could have done regarding major league players. And although I'm not naive enough to think the Olympics is strictly amateur, I don't much care for seeing multimillion dollar athletes compete in the Olympics, whether it's baseball, basketball, s****r or whatever. JMO.

Softball has been lobbying harder than baseball for reinstatement, though I also believe their fates are tied; without the backing of MLB, baseball's fight is pretty disorganized.

We were personally very disappointed; with the games in London, the UK team would have had an automatic berth.

I don't feel that international baseball is based on Olympic competition, however. (I mean, has The Boules Movement or Dancing On A Mat With A Kite Tail really grown through Olympic exposure? )

The Dutch National Team is currently organizing a European team to play winter ball in Venezuela, for example. International competition in Europe includes teams from Russia, the Czech Republic, Greece, Austria. Teams form and players play for the love and enjoyment of the sport --- would we expect any less?

I often suspect that the rigid tesing for illegal drugs and substances in the Olympics created a problem for MLB and the players.

I can't blame the IOC for being let down when the 'professional' teams representing the Americas were dilluted by various national origins. Even more onerous was the fact that supposed amatuer teams were dominating the sport.

I wonder if the steroid and illegal drug policies in the MLB will be relaxed now that the Olympic testing is no longer a factor.

Did the US even support keeping it in the Olympics?

Who are the US sending to the Olympics? MLB and MiLB are currently playing, so they tend to be college players, which is fine, but it is not the countries best.

Other events will still occur but again, they are not the very best.

My understanding is that the vote was very close and that there was a backlash to the Iraq war, Afghanistan war. The non-political entity got revenge politically.

One of the reasons that the IOC used was that the Americans always when so why bother? Well by that standard 30 years ago, they should have ended basketball because we were so dominate. We all know how that sport has taken off.

The two main reasons cited were

Hosts cities had to devote so much land and money in constructing the venues for baseball and softball that would not be used again.

The big name players in the game were not participating. When the change was made to allow professionals, there was an expectation of big name baseball stars representing their home nations.

After lobbying for professionals in the games, the USA team did not qualify in 2004 to play in the Olympics.

The World Baseball Classic really exposed the quality of foreign born players in MLB. When the foreign born players went to play for their home nations, the USA team lacked the quality to be a dominant force in the tournament.

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Again, IMO the decision has nothing to do with world wide popularity or growth...Consultant/Bob Williams would be in a unique position to know as he runs trips to international youth compeitions...

quote:

For 25 years, we have been involved in International Baseball. During the previous World Games, 45 players from all countries had played in our Goodwill Series events....International baseball will continue to expand...Today are 96 countries playing baseball.

Quincy reports the stated reasons...

quote:

The two main reasons cited were.. Hosts cities had to devote so much land and money in constructing the venues for baseball and softball that would not be used again....

No land? Bunk. This excuse holds NO validity in any rational thought process. While it my not seem that way on TV...Olympic venues are commonly spread over very wide distances

No later use? Bunk. This excuse holds NO validity in any rational thought process. Virtually every single venue at every Olympics is designed to be modified to multiple later uses. Some are only temporary to start with. Any middling architect could solve this.

quote:

The big name players in the game were not participating. When the change was made to allow professionals, there was an expectation of big name baseball stars representing their home nations.

This is the real reason...and it engendered a political power play. "So, You won't bring the right people to my game? Well then, I'll fix you.. I'll take my ball and go home...so there!"

The REALLY sad thing is that by this thought process, the "star quality" is more important than particaption. The Olympic Credo: "It is more important to participate than to win" should be rewritten like this...."It is more important for Stars/celebrities to attend than it is to participate or to win"

And then there is this...

quote:

My understanding is that the vote was very close and that there was a backlash to the Iraq war, Afghanistan war. The non-political entity got revenge politically

More of the REAL/political reasoning.

And here is the Irony...

quote:

Who are the US sending to the Olympics? MLB and MiLB are currently playing, so they tend to be college players, which is fine, but it is not the countries best.

The Irony is that we ARE sending professionals, some of our best prospects...mostly AAA players...ALL highly though of prospects...and only a single college player..Steven Strassberg who is the frontrunner for the #1 draft pick next year. As for sending the top professionals, simply not practical during the middle of the season from competitive or a revenue standpoint.

http://web.usabaseball.com/teams/index.jsp?team=940

I'd wager that these AAA guys will have enough talent to represent us well.

44
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Nice observations, 44.

Speaking of unused stadiums... In 2006, Qatar hosted the Asian Games and I saw a game between China and Japan there. Who'd have thought there would be baseball in the middle of the stinkin' desert? ...in December, no less. They built a stadium and I thought I'd look at it on Google Maps. I don't know when they took this picture, but it looks like it is still in use, only as a softball field. There appears to be a game in progress.

Good to se Rheal Cormier playing for the Canadian National team.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/baseball/news/newsid=206711....s+cormier+back+mound

quote:

I'd wager that these AAA guys will have enough talent to represent us well.

44

South Korea 8

USA 7

Oops.

If the best players in MLB were in the Olympics, they would be playing for the Dominican Republic.

Another problem with baseball in the Olympics is the timing of it right in the middle of the MiLB and MLB seasons. Do you think the Dream Team would have made their appearance if the Olympics in 1992 if it fell in the middle of the NBA season? Not a chance.

Yes the WNBA took a two week break but women's international basketball is still a bigger deal than the WNBA season. If the WNBA can keep growing and prospering I doubt we will see the break in the season.

Host countries who don't want baseball and softball because can't use the facilities again don't want to build the sports. That would be a perfect set up to build a grass roots campaign to develop the two sports. Build the stadiums, host the Olympics, create academies to teach the game and have youth tournaments at them. Imagine if you were a 17 year old Chinese kid who steps foot onto the field they were using to play a game - you got this kis hook, line and sinker to love baseball. Spread that opportunity out and now you have a foundation to build the sport. If MLB wants to spread this is how the spread.

Baseball is the most difficult (or one of) sports to play because of the skill involved yet it's one of the easiest sports to be able to put a team together quickly. To be a good baseball player takes years of hard work but you can take 9 guys of equitable talent and give them a week work out and they can be a good team. The first part is what keeps other countries / people from trying baseball.

It's way easier to pick up a basketball or a s **** r ball and play than to pick up a glove bat and ball. Those other sports require tremendous amounts of skill but (going out on a limb here) you will find more baseball players who can perform in other sports well than other sport players who can play baseball.

quote:

IMO, Baseball is healthy and growing on an international level...Olympic politics bear no relationship to the health of the game worldwide.

Baseball was healthy and growing well before it was an olympic sport and will continue to do so.......even if it does not expand to new countries it remains a strong passion in the existing ones..

I cant not find any real reason to drop baseball other than politics....

China's top player, catcher **** Wei, was knocked out of the game with a left knee injury following a collision at the plate with Matt LaPorta in the fifth.

After Schierholtz made a hard slide home against backup catcher Yang Yang on a sacrifice fly in the sixth — and Yang was held back from Schierholtz by teammates — China manager Jim Lefebvre was ejected for arguing about the rough play.

Chinese reliever Chen Kun and China pitching coach Steven Ontiveros were tossed when Chen plunked LaPorta in the head to start the seventh.

USA vs China video

Frank

In 1998, my son and trained at the Baseball Sports Academy south of Beijing.

We conducted the first pro tryouts in China.
In 1999, we invited several Chinese coaches and players to the Pirates Spring Training Center
in Bradenton, Florida. My son and I have each traveled on 16 occasions to China for baseball.

When Robert was a scout for the Mariners, he signed the first China player to a professional contract. This player now plays for the China Olympic Baseball team.

Last year, the Beijing State Team [included 5 Olympic players] traveled with our American teams to Australia.

The "outbreak" of fights is not characteristic of the China baseball players or the American players, several who have played in our Goodwill Series.

Bob Williams

I don't even have to see the video to know that the runner should of been ejected.
And an out recorded.
The player should apoligize.
There's know place for that kind of play in international tournaments.
EH

This is the lowest of the low in sports.

Any time a player attempts to intentionally injure another player, they should be ejected and disqualified from the tournament.

LaPorta intentionally aimed his shoulder at the catcher's knee. The weakest part of the catcher's body in that stance.

Schierholtz dropped his shoulder into the replacement catcher's chest. Why not just a flying tackle?

When it seemed their backs were to the wall, the true character of these 'players' came out. They have no regard for the sport or sportsmanship, in my view. They were not in the coliseum as gladiators.

I'm sure Whining Dave loved this brand of ball.

A disgusting display from a team that is supposed to represent the USA, the greatest nation in this world.

I don't think it's that bad honestly.

I believe LaPorta wasn't trying to hurt the catcher because he is trying to dive around him. If LaPorta wanted to hurt him he could have drove his shoulder into his side and broke some ribs. But he is diving around him and the catcher's knee got twisted while he was blocking the plate.

Schierholtz was a little more bushleague but the catcher was in the way and the throw was no where near the plate. If you look at the replay the throw was late and up the line. There was no chance he was going to be out but the catcher was standing in the way. Plus look at the way Schierholtz bounces backwards onto his back at contact. That means he didn't really put his all into the collision or that skinny Chinese catcher is a super block of muscle.

I can't blame the Chinese for hitting LaPorta but you can't go for the head no matter what. Hit him in the butt, legs or back and hit Schierholtz too but NEVER go for the head.

I am a former catcher and hated getting run over but collisions are going to happen.

What rule set do the Olympics fall under? Is there a rule against collisions? If so then I think China does have an argument.

I know I am not taking the popular view here but that is the way I feel.

The Pro's are a differant story, If there blocking the plate.
Well then they get blasted.
But International play, Amatuer?? play. Should be slide or avoid.
That's just what I believe. Not sure what the rule's are.
EH

I didn't think it was that bad either. Didn't four of our guys get dotted before LaPorta's head shot?
Now that bench clearing brawl was another story
USA v China basebrawl

quote:

Originally posted by theEH:
The Pro's are a differant story, If there blocking the plate.
Well then they get blasted.
But International play, Amatuer?? play. Should be slide or avoid.
That's just what I believe. Not sure what the rule's are.
EH

No offense EH but the Americans are pro players. Not sure about the Chinese but if they aren't then that creates a lot of issues. The Americans are used the collisions (you see worse collisions on ESPN from MLB games all the time) and they may be thinking there is nothing wrong while the Chinese have rules against it creates a problem here.

The tougher no collisions rules are the more the catcher is going to block the plate because of that protection. Plus how the umpire interprets the catchers actions doesn't matter - the catcher is going to stand over the plate.

There Pro Player's playing an amatuer sport?? in the Olympic's.

If They think it's all right to play the game that way during the Olympic's.
Then maybe we should go back to true Amatuer players.
JMHO.
EH

I am with ya coach. Good job guys, that's what you get when you (China) stick in 14 year olds in (gymnastists) Olympic competition.

quote:

The player should apoligize.

He did. There was an article in the paper this morning but I can't find the link. But UF is closing and there is a wind advisory so I'm going home! We won't get Fay as bad as others, but we're still hunkering down.

Best of luck 2B mom during the storm and hope everyone makes it through.

It's a nice gesture that he apologized to the guy but why doesn't the media talk about it like the did the collision? We had the thread a week or so ago talking about when it was fair for the media to criticize players. This is what gets me about the media. They blow up the collision but the apology barely gets covered.

Folks the Olympics are made up of pro athletes, don't let anyone tell you otherwise

Our Golden Boy Swimmer just brought a 1.6 million townhouse
He also, I believe, received 1 million bucks from Speedoo for his accomplishments

The volleyball players are pros---the basketball teams are pros---we need not go on

By the way back in the day when the USA used all college kids the other countries were using pro players

Good news in the media does get attention---bad news headlines sells newspapers

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
I don't think it's that bad honestly.

I believe LaPorta wasn't trying to hurt the catcher because he is trying to dive around him. If LaPorta wanted to hurt him he could have drove his shoulder into his side and broke some ribs. But he is diving around him and the catcher's knee got twisted while he was blocking the plate.

Schierholtz was a little more bushleague but the catcher was in the way and the throw was no where near the plate. If you look at the replay the throw was late and up the line. There was no chance he was going to be out but the catcher was standing in the way. Plus look at the way Schierholtz bounces backwards onto his back at contact. That means he didn't really put his all into the collision or that skinny Chinese catcher is a super block of muscle.

I can't blame the Chinese for hitting LaPorta but you can't go for the head no matter what. Hit him in the butt, legs or back and hit Schierholtz too but NEVER go for the head.

I am a former catcher and hated getting run over but collisions are going to happen.

What rule set do the Olympics fall under? Is there a rule against collisions? If so then I think China does have an argument.

I know I am not taking the popular view here but that is the way I feel.

I agree with your assessment of the collisions that took place and the beaning in the head part. I just think it's really stupid to allow these collisions in Professional ball or the Olympics. It's not allowed at any other level, so why would you allow it when the players are making their living playing baseball. Too much is at stake in my opinion to allow it anywhere. Don't allow the defensive player to block the base without the ball and make the player slide or avoid contact. It seems pretty simple to me.