General Question: CU to same handed batter

Some coaches have a general rule to not throw R on R, or L on L, change ups. Period. Regardless of the circumstances. I do not agree. It depends on the quality of the change up that any individual pitcher throws. If the CU is a pitcher’s 3rd best pitch you want to be careful about when it’s thrown. But if it is high quality it can be an effective pitch to any hitter. Hitting is all about timing. Therefore, pitching is about upsetting a hitter’s timing. And nothing does that better than effectively changing speeds.

@adbono posted:

Some coaches have a general rule to not throw R on R, or L on L, change ups. Period. Regardless of the circumstances. I do not agree. It depends on the quality of the change up that any individual pitcher throws. If the CU is a pitcher’s 3rd best pitch you want to be careful about when it’s thrown. But if it is high quality it can be an effective pitch to any hitter. Hitting is all about timing. Therefore, pitching is about upsetting a hitter’s timing. And nothing does that better than effectively changing speeds.

100% agree with this post. I believe the standard reasoning is that a typical change up in going to run in on a same sided batter (where a lot of bad things can happen). However, a good split is also a change up, and it's commonly thrown to same side hitters.  

@JucoDad posted:

100% agree with this post. I believe the standard reasoning is that a typical change up in going to run in on a same sided batter (where a lot of bad things can happen). However, a good split is also a change up, and it's commonly thrown to same side hitters.  

Exactly,  it's a general rule,  but can be applied batter by batter based on scouting.  Now a straight change seems to have effectiveness against both L and R hitters, but the fear is hanging it to a RH while it can still have effectiveness to a lefty if hung due to their more sweepy swing.

There are also other off speed pitch rules like not following up an off speed pitch with an off speed that's not as good,  ie if your curve is your best off-speed don't follow up your curve with your 3rd best off speed. etc.

My son moved to a split because he can manipulate drop and break to either side and it has become a much more effective off-speed pitch than his change up.

Thanks for the great replies.  Split being a two seam fastball?  

@TexasLefty posted:

Thanks for the great replies.  Split being a two seam fastball?  

No. Splitter can be a number of things. But in the context above it’s a change up - a split change. The best pitch in baseball if you have the hands to throw it. IMO. Has to be gripped deep in the baseball so it comes out of the hand with a forward tumble and not backspin. Also called a forkball. I threw it and it totally changed my career. In a good way. A two seam fastball is a completely different pitch and not at all related.

I think it is like with opposite handed sliders: If you can locate it well it can be very effective but location mistakes get punished harder and the natural movement of the pitches tends to make mistakes more likely.

For example a same handed slider even if you have bad command you can just throw it down the middle and the movement will carry it away from the center of the plate. The same side slider however will carry towards the middle so you have to work Hader to locate it.

CU is vice versa, same hand CU tends to carry towards the middle of the plate and opposite handle away from it so locating it is harder and mistakes are more frequent and get punished more.

But a pitcher with outstanding command over that particular pitch can avoid it and be effective with the pitch.

Thanks for the explanations.  My LHP throws a circle CU and it does move down and away from RH, but he does throw it more outside so I can see how it could be more forgiving to hang one to a RH hitter.

I will have to ask him if he ever tried throwing a splitter.  His circle CU is one of his best pitches because of its movement.  Does a circle CU and a Split complement each other in a way that you’d throw both in an AB like different types of FBs?

@TexasLefty posted:

Thanks for the explanations.  My LHP throws a circle CU and it does move down and away from RH, but he does throw it more outside so I can see how it could be more forgiving to hang one to a RH hitter.

I will have to ask him if he ever tried throwing a splitter.  His circle CU is one of his best pitches because of its movement.  Does a circle CU and a Split complement each other in a way that you’d throw both in an AB like different types of FBs?

An easy litmus test to determine if any P should try to throw the split change is palming a basketball. If you can, you should give it a try. It takes big hands and long fingers for most pitchers to be able to throw the split change properly. I teach a grip as deep in the ball as any individual hand will allow. The horseshoe of the seams should face the P and the fingers should be deep enough in the ball so that you can see the leather of the baseball between the seams and the fingers. If you grip deep enough the ball tumbles forward as it comes out of the hand. This kills the velocity ( as intended) but also creates a pitch that breaks down but not horizontally. So it’s a different pitch than a circle (or any other) change. It can complement a traditional change up nicely if the pitches are different enough. A big benefit of having the split change in your arsenal is that it is very dependable once it’s mastered. You will rarely (if ever) have a day where you don’t have a feel for it and are reluctant to throw it. So I say it’s good to throw both - as long as they act differently. Another benefit of the spilt change is that it’s good R on R and/or L on L.

@adbono posted:

An easy litmus test to determine if any P should try to throw the split change is palming a basketball. If you can, you should give it a try. It takes big hands and long fingers for most pitchers to be able to throw the split change properly. I teach a grip as deep in the ball as any individual hand will allow. The horseshoe of the seams should face the P and the fingers should be deep enough in the ball so that you can see the leather of the baseball between the seams and the fingers. If you grip deep enough the ball tumbles forward as it comes out of the hand. This kills the velocity ( as intended) but also creates a pitch that breaks down but not horizontally. So it’s a different pitch than a circle (or any other) change. It can complement a traditional change up nicely if the pitches are different enough. A big benefit of having the split change in your arsenal is that it is very dependable once it’s mastered. You will rarely (if ever) have a day where you don’t have a feel for it and are reluctant to throw it. So I say it’s good to throw both - as long as they act differently. Another benefit of the spilt change is that it’s good R on R and/or L on L.

At 6'5" my son has very big hands and long fingers.  The best way to describe his split is that when thrown it looks like the fastball until it's not there.  His college catcher both when catching him and also hitting him during live BP's says it's just unfair how he feels he's on it, but the ball just isn't there to hit.  When he wants a little different look to it he manipulates movement by rotating the ball in his grip to grab a tiny bit of seam, almost a forkball vs true split.

I would say it is a little bitter harder to master than adbono mentions, to get it to do what you want, but as far as just throwing it and that it will take spin and velocity off, it is just a grip it and rip it pitch.  It is his primary off speed to lefthanded hitters.

One of his HS teammates taught it to him and they would throw it back and forth to each other during catch play, and that's how he determined it was something he could eventually master.

@HSDad22 posted:

At 6'5" my son has very big hands and long fingers.  The best way to describe his split is that when thrown it looks like the fastball until it's not there.  His college catcher both when catching him and also hitting him during live BP's says it's just unfair how he feels he's on it, but the ball just isn't there to hit.  When he wants a little different look to it he manipulates movement by rotating the ball in his grip to grab a tiny bit of seam, almost a forkball vs true split.

I would say it is a little bitter harder to master than adbono mentions, to get it to do what you want, but as far as just throwing it and that it will take spin and velocity off, it is just a grip it and rip it pitch.  It is his primary off speed to lefthanded hitters.

One of his HS teammates taught it to him and they would throw it back and forth to each other during catch play, and that's how he determined it was something he could eventually master.

Fair point on mastering the pitch. My experience is that some get it right away and for others it takes a while. I was one of the fortunate that figured it out right away.