Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Buster-
Thanks for linking that.
I think he gets off the schneid differently for tee.
less positive move and more "counterrotation" from tee as compared to game swings with more positive move and more bat cok/uncock the way you describe it with bottom hand coming under top,then lead arm leading plane transition by "pulling knob with lead arm not shoulders" as lau describes the Brett swing(primarily internal rotation of lead arm).
In any case (tee and game),the lead arm gets out of the shoulder plane,then transitons into the shoulder plane which becomes the power plane when connected.
This is not "independent" arm action, but carefully synchronized arm action to optimize coil dynamics for quick unloading that can be adjusted to match contact location as late as possible.
drills can be made to resemble reality by keeping in mind the necessity for a good positive move and good arm action. The positive move requires the hips to "slide" forward - some,not necessarily a lot (carry/shift) before the hips begin to turn open.Hips turning open is synchronized with back elbow starting down (synchronized external rotation of back arm and lead leg,arm "permitting" leg to lead slightly). Hard to see, less hard to feel.
beware the dead hands (poor arm action) no stride (poor positive move)swing.This will prevent good coil/load and kills full swing quickness no matter how much you try to shorten the swing.
Thanks for linking that.
I think he gets off the schneid differently for tee.
less positive move and more "counterrotation" from tee as compared to game swings with more positive move and more bat cok/uncock the way you describe it with bottom hand coming under top,then lead arm leading plane transition by "pulling knob with lead arm not shoulders" as lau describes the Brett swing(primarily internal rotation of lead arm).
In any case (tee and game),the lead arm gets out of the shoulder plane,then transitons into the shoulder plane which becomes the power plane when connected.
This is not "independent" arm action, but carefully synchronized arm action to optimize coil dynamics for quick unloading that can be adjusted to match contact location as late as possible.
drills can be made to resemble reality by keeping in mind the necessity for a good positive move and good arm action. The positive move requires the hips to "slide" forward - some,not necessarily a lot (carry/shift) before the hips begin to turn open.Hips turning open is synchronized with back elbow starting down (synchronized external rotation of back arm and lead leg,arm "permitting" leg to lead slightly). Hard to see, less hard to feel.
beware the dead hands (poor arm action) no stride (poor positive move)swing.This will prevent good coil/load and kills full swing quickness no matter how much you try to shorten the swing.
quote:"pulling knob with lead arm not shoulders" as lau describes the Brett swing(primarily internal rotation of lead arm).
This is what I was seeing and did not know how to describe it properly.
Also see this
http://members.aol.com/baseparent/wrist.html
discriptions are lousey BUT....interesting
Last drill the Hammer loop drill is one I use now to feel hand torque....just didn't know what to call it. I was copying Bagwell, Ruth, Piazza, Warning you can get hooked on hand torque.
Great hitter generate hand torque. Maybe Mankin is not first to this party//
I know you will know the history...........
Buster-
the lead arm internal rotation is the same action that Hodge describes as the glove arm action that is the key to avoiding "flying open" in overhand throw/pitching, just with elbow at bellybuton (hitting) vs pointing to target (throwing).
Likewise,the rear/throwing arm loading sequence is the same,but you don't keep the the back elbow up all the time in hitting because loading is an asymmetric 2 arm action (both hands on bat) as opposed to a symmetric one in throwing.
In both cases,the arm action out of plane/plane transition creates better control (stretching things out in a third dimension) of swing timing and better location adjustment (palne and acceleration characteristics within plane) and better dynamics of coil (xfactor stretch).
Another good example of this mechanic from N yman is the "lazy susan demo" where you can stand on a giant lazy susan (or as I prefer,sitting on a well oiled barstool).Internally rotate one arm as you externally rotate the other and you will spin on the stool in a direction that would assist in keeping the hands back/continuing coil if its the "front" arm that is internally rotated and the "back" arm that is externally rotated. Moreso if you hold some weights in your hand.
the lead arm internal rotation is the same action that Hodge describes as the glove arm action that is the key to avoiding "flying open" in overhand throw/pitching, just with elbow at bellybuton (hitting) vs pointing to target (throwing).
Likewise,the rear/throwing arm loading sequence is the same,but you don't keep the the back elbow up all the time in hitting because loading is an asymmetric 2 arm action (both hands on bat) as opposed to a symmetric one in throwing.
In both cases,the arm action out of plane/plane transition creates better control (stretching things out in a third dimension) of swing timing and better location adjustment (palne and acceleration characteristics within plane) and better dynamics of coil (xfactor stretch).
Another good example of this mechanic from N yman is the "lazy susan demo" where you can stand on a giant lazy susan (or as I prefer,sitting on a well oiled barstool).Internally rotate one arm as you externally rotate the other and you will spin on the stool in a direction that would assist in keeping the hands back/continuing coil if its the "front" arm that is internally rotated and the "back" arm that is externally rotated. Moreso if you hold some weights in your hand.
Buster-
You can also use the arm action info to "justify" the grip.
It is probably best to think of how thw forearms need to be positioned (one of mankin's points) and how they progress to drive the bat when thinking of the grip.
For the arm loading action,the forearms are almost at 180 degrees. This means lining up the first knuckles if you kept the wrists neutral.
A very different grip is required to have palms up/down at contact by which time angle between forearms has greatly narrowed. The more flex comes out of the elbows by contact,the more acute the angle between the forearms becomes with the extreme example being the door k nockers lined up (that is why this grip is preferred by arm hiiters who have to use arm extension to accelerate or re-accelerate the bat even to the point of rolling the wrists before contact-2piece swing- in which case this grip minimizes wobble of the bat).
the wrist can only accomodate so much transition from load to contact without suffering what mankin calls "wrist bind" which interferes with the swing.
One way to ease the "transition" from grip optimized for load to grip optimized for contact is to maximize the range of motion of back forearm supination which is done by pronating as much as possible early (sound familiar ?).
beyond this, some sort of compromise grip can be taken and/or some slippage in the top hand can be permitted as the swing progresses.
Belly-up/Bonds swing also can cover plate without narrowing angle between forearms so much.
The lead wrist should be able to stay flat/neutral through contact to not mess up plane (avoid what mankin calls "droopy lead wrist" at contact).
Having meat of top hand behind bat is a nice thing too through contact with wrists unbroken or just breaking through contact as described by Williams.
You can also use the arm action info to "justify" the grip.
It is probably best to think of how thw forearms need to be positioned (one of mankin's points) and how they progress to drive the bat when thinking of the grip.
For the arm loading action,the forearms are almost at 180 degrees. This means lining up the first knuckles if you kept the wrists neutral.
A very different grip is required to have palms up/down at contact by which time angle between forearms has greatly narrowed. The more flex comes out of the elbows by contact,the more acute the angle between the forearms becomes with the extreme example being the door k nockers lined up (that is why this grip is preferred by arm hiiters who have to use arm extension to accelerate or re-accelerate the bat even to the point of rolling the wrists before contact-2piece swing- in which case this grip minimizes wobble of the bat).
the wrist can only accomodate so much transition from load to contact without suffering what mankin calls "wrist bind" which interferes with the swing.
One way to ease the "transition" from grip optimized for load to grip optimized for contact is to maximize the range of motion of back forearm supination which is done by pronating as much as possible early (sound familiar ?).
beyond this, some sort of compromise grip can be taken and/or some slippage in the top hand can be permitted as the swing progresses.
Belly-up/Bonds swing also can cover plate without narrowing angle between forearms so much.
The lead wrist should be able to stay flat/neutral through contact to not mess up plane (avoid what mankin calls "droopy lead wrist" at contact).
Having meat of top hand behind bat is a nice thing too through contact with wrists unbroken or just breaking through contact as described by Williams.
