Getting as much $ as possible

First red flag here------why isn't it an official visit?

Could be a red flag, but probably not.

1) Official visits aren't allowed until after opening day of classes in high school (senior year, of course). Yet, it may be desireable to both player and school to get an offer on the table now.
2) If the school is nearby, meaning the costs are low, why bother with all the paperwork?
3) A player is limited to 5 visits to D1 and D2 schools. It may be better to not "spend" one of the five visits.

As a general question, with the timeline for recruiting advancing as it has, are official visits becoming less useful?

It's too soon for an official visit. I'm a 2010 and I believe that you can't take an official visit until the first day of senior year or Sept. 1st

That is the point---why not set an official visit for when school begins--that shows true interest in you---the unofficial situation makes it look, to me at least, that are trying to get you cheap--if you commit now will they bring you back for an official after the fact ?

Have you met the team?
Have spent a day in classes?
Have you seen the team practice?
Are you going to accept a deal without all of the above answered?

3FG--- differences of opinion and perhaps actual experience here

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:

As a general question, with the timeline for recruiting advancing as it has, are official visits becoming less useful?

Having gone through this last year I do feel the official visit schedule is too late in the process. Out of my son's signing class at least 90% were verbally committed before official visits could begin. I would also venture to guess that all of those that signed did unofficial visits as well. Most of the parents I talked to did at least 3 unofficial visits prior to making their verbal commitment. It sure would have been nice to have had an option to use some of those 5 official visits before being expected to commit.

The official visits were still used however most of the recruits came the same weekend and it was more of an orientation than anything else.

TRhit,

I haven't done any of those things but I'm pretty sure the kids that commit early usually don't. I would hope the offer they make isn't too forceful requiring a decision within only a few weeks because I initially intended on taking my official visits. But as far as I know kids that commit this early are offered a good amount and that's probably gonna be my main influence. So back to my initial question, what can I do to get as much as possible ?

You ask for more if you don't likee their 1st offer.

quote:

Originally posted by RHP22:
I would hope the offer they make isn't too forceful requiring a decision within only a few weeks because I initially intended on taking my official visits. So back to my initial question, what can I do to get as much as possible ?

Two answers/suggestions here...

Offers usually come with short time frames attached, generally a few weeks. If you don't want to commit, they need to move on and offer someone else.

Second, as to getting the most, I would disagree strongly with Bobblehead that you ask for more. You should go into the meeting with an expectation. Listen to the offer, if the coach asks what you think of it, simply say that you'd like some time to digest and understand it before you make a comment. If after a day or two, you feel the offer is not up to your expectation, then you may want to have a conversation with the coach and let him know that. If however the offer meets or exceeds your expectation, and all other factors are positive (you like the school, and would stay there, even if baseball went away), then you may want to consider accepting the offer.

Good luck with your visit(s).

Isn't that asking for more ? How you ask is dependant on the situation. You don't ask you won't get more.

The coach will offer you what he thinks you are worth to the program and based on his budget.

Never accept the biggest offer for teh sole reason to attend, there are plenty of players who accept smaller offers because it's the right "fit", which can include different things for different people.

Unofficial visits are common to use for offers and if the player accepts, he is entitled to his official visit after Sept 1 and JD made a great point, the coaches use it as an orientation and a "meet and greet your new teammates" these days.

rhp22 first of all congratulations, it sounds like you will have options so I suggest you make sure you don't jump too quickly.

This early in the game (July) if you get an offer that comes with a short timeline to make a decision I would be very cautious. If the program really wants you then they should give you the appropriate amount of time to do your research and make sure their school/program is the best fit for you. I'm not saying that they are going to give you until September or October however you shouldn't be expected to give an answer that week either.

Understand that when doing unofficial visits where the pretense of the visit is that an offer will be made that the clock starts ticking, its one thing to ask for time to make a good decision however you shouldn't’t also expect to not have some type of deadline identified. IMO there needs to be an understanding that both parties agree to a fair amount of time to make your decision? Schools are competing for prospects so if you aren't going to sign they need to know so they can move on. Also don't think for a minute that once they have made a offer that they still aren't recruiting players in your position. Until you commit they are moving on as if you will not be part of the program.

Regarding getting the best offer… I think this comes down to more about your abilities and the teams need vs. negotiation. The offer will give you a good indication how much they want you. When it comes down to time to make a final decision and if you have 2 or 3 schools that are competing for you (with offers in hand) you may find an opportunity to negotiate a little bit however in our experience we didn’t want to turn the process into a negotiation. Most schools just stated that if my son’s final decision was the difference between a few percentage points then we should let them know and they would try to work it out. One thing to consider though is that the scholarship is only good for one year, if you try to play hardball with a coach it could come back to bite you come renewal time.

One last thing, I don’t know what level of a program you are visiting however I suggest you don’t let your ego get in the way when you get your offer. If you are visiting a top level program the offer might be lower than what you may get at a mid level baseball program. Remember top level programs have the cream of the crop wanting to play for them so many times the scholarship aren’t as big. You can get a pretty good idea of what the top players in a program received in scholarships. My son actually signed a NLI with a team that he had his lowest offer from however he also knew it was one of better offers that they make. Bottom line, it’s about fit and gut feel. Good luck, it should be an exciting couple months for you. I see you are from NJ, if I can help in any way fell free to send me a PM.

The first thing you have to decide is, are you ready to commit. While you do not have to wait until fall, you should wait until you know the answers to TR's questions to your own satisfaction.

If you start negotiations, the assumption is that if they meet your terms, you're ready to shake hands. One very good way to burn a bridge is to bid them up and then leave them with their hand out, unmet. So, don't start down this road unless you're ready to make a deal.

If you're not ready to commit, then what you do is, you thank them sincerely for their offer, tell them you need some time, ask them when they want to hear from you by. Then part on good terms, and follow up with an e-mail when you get home confirming your appreciation and your understanding of the deadline for your answer.

If you are indeed ready to commit to them, and the only question is finances, then there are tactful ways to say so. Depending on whom you're dealing with, they may or may not be open to such things. You may want to seek out others who are at that school, or who have had dealings with those coaches, to get some idea in advance as to whether they will respect you for dealing with them "man to man", or whether they're more the "my way or the highway" types. But then, that's something you really ought to know already, if you really think you're ready to commit.

Samples:

"I would love to play here for you and I'm excited about the school. Unfortunately I just don't think I can afford it without some additional help. Is there any chance you could consider a higher offer? Because if you could offer ___%, I think I could commit right here and now."

"This is where I want to be. But I have to be honest, _________ University has offered me ___%. I feel like I have to consider my parents in all of this since they are the ones footing the bills. Is there any chance you could match the other offer? Because then it wouldn't be an issue."

But again, if you have a "my way or the highway" guy, even the most polite approaches could result in his taking offense. So the key is, know the coach before you get into this. Otherwise you could put your foot in it.

In any negotiation you have to be prepared to lose.
When I negotiated my son's deal we were prepared to move on. There were many colleges my son would have loved to attend. The coach asked for a week or 2 to see where he could get the money. I later found out he withdrew an offer from a player who was sitting on the fence.
Midlo's approach is good. Negotiating doesn't mean getting in the coaches face. It is a matter of getting the offer to a level you can be happy with .

Quote: Jerseydad said
________________________________________________________________________
Remember top level programs have the cream of the crop wanting to play for them so many times the scholarship aren’t as big. You can get a pretty good idea of what the top players in a program received in scholarships.
________________________________________________________________________

This leads up to a rumor about a kid on my son's team. The rumor was he had a "full ride" to a large PAC 10 school. How does one find out these things, go up and ask head coach: "Hey coach, I heard ****** got a full ride, you want to confirm that."
I have yet to find any place whereby this information is posted. Please enlighten me on this.

If you're not prepared NOT to make a deal, you can't really negotiate much. If they know you are desperate to go there, they hold all the cards.

We were able to get the offer raised slightly at my Son's school, however it was still the lowest % offer he received. It was, however, his #1 choice and we are very happy with his decision.

What it comes down to is this:

At a D1 school, if they are fully funded, they get 11.7 scholarships, which can only be given out to 27 kids (not counting grand-fathered deals prior to 2009)
So that works out to 43.3% average.

Ask yourself this question?

If 2 or 3 years ago, I knew that my kid could go to the school of his choice and have 43% of it paid, would that have made me happy? Or 25%, 35%, etc?

Or, you could look at it another way? There's an old axiom in Human Resources that says, "Some companies pay more because they have to!"

I own an Executive Recruiting firm, and for the last 28 years,I have told candidates that there are 4 major things that they need to consider in a job offer.

1. Tangibles-title, duties and Money
2. Culture and fit
3. Location-how it affects my Family
4. How will this new job and company prepare me for the next step in my career?

Usually, it's #2, #3 or #4 that make the deal happen!

It's no secret that some of the top programs get kids for the minimum or even as walk-ons, while spurning good offers from lesser programs.

It's all about the fit, in my opinion!

quote:

Originally posted by gitnby:

We were able to get the offer raised slightly at my Son's school, however it was still the lowest % offer he received. It was, however, his #1 choice and we are very happy with his decision.

What it comes down to is this:

At a D1 school, if they are fully funded, they get 11.7 scholarships, which can only be given out to 27 kids (not counting grand-fathered deals prior to 2009)
So that works out to 43.3% average.

Ask yourself this question?

If 2 or 3 years ago, I knew that my kid could go to the school of his choice and have 43% of it paid, would that have made me happy? Or 25%, 35%, etc?

Or, you could look at it another way? There's an old axiom in Human Resources that says, "Some companies pay more because they have to!"

I own an Executive Recruiting firm, and for the last 28 years,I have told candidates that there are 4 major things that they need to consider in a job offer.

1. Tangibles-title, duties and Money
2. Culture and fit
3. Location-how it affects my Family
4. How will this new job and company prepare me for the next step in my career?

Usually, it's #2, #3 or #4 that make the deal happen!

It's no secret that some of the top programs get kids for the minimum or even as walk-ons, while spurning good offers from lesser programs.

It's all about the fit, in my opinion!

Very good post gitnby. I too believe that it's not always about how much $ a player is offered if he and/or his parents feel it's just a darn good fit at the end of the day. One cannot discount those intangibles, or they shouldn't at least. Just following the Benjamin could lead to great unhappiness in a myriad of ways.

If the school is state supported, the average % will be higher than 43%.

You do face certain realities, though. Pitchers are going to suck up a whole lot of the budget. Catchers and infielders next, esp. those with big sticks. If you're an OF, you're last in the pecking order unless you have one heckuva bat.

You can't compare yourself to an overall average. You need to compare yourself to the average for your particular position.

quote:

Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:
Quote: Jerseydad said
________________________________________________________________________
Remember top level programs have the cream of the crop wanting to play for them so many times the scholarship aren’t as big. You can get a pretty good idea of what the top players in a program received in scholarships.
________________________________________________________________________

This leads up to a rumor about a kid on my son's team. The rumor was he had a "full ride" to a large PAC 10 school. How does one find out these things, go up and ask head coach: "Hey coach, I heard ****** got a full ride, you want to confirm that."
I have yet to find any place whereby this information is posted. Please enlighten me on this.

Your right, there isn't anywhere that scholarship percentages are posted. It was our experience that the coach making the offer would often tell him where their offer fit within with their program. The coaches gave him comps as to what the top players in their program were getting without giving specifics. If a coach didn’t offer such information, we would ask “where does this offer fit within your program”? We left most meetings feeling we had a pretty good idea of where jr. stacked up on their priority list. My guy also had an advisor and he was able to confirm many of the scholarship ranges by talking to past players as well as some of the current ones within the programs.

Another source of information might be your summer coach. Many have a very good feel what is a top of the line offer from different programs. Once we got into the process we found that it’s a pretty small world out there in the recruiting wars. You might be surprised how much everyone knows about what the other guys are doing. We had one coach come up to us and said we know XYZ University offered you ***. I think we kept things pretty quite regarding the offers jr was getting during the process … the thing is, the guy was right on.

JD is right on, ask the coach where the offer falls in regards to average as well, and you can pretty much figure out whether it's a good one.

You also have to remember that where you fit in the scheme of things (ranking) will also determine your scholarship worth. A top ranked 50 pitcher in his class will get more than the 250 ranked pitcher.
That is why it is so important to make sure that you get exposure, that exposure helps to determine where he fits. That is especially important if one is considering farther away from home.
But when all is said and done, you are worth more to some than others. My son had offers, 25-35%. Were we insulted, no, just realized that the coach had less money to spend, the offer might have been accepted if he thought it was the right fit, regardless of where he fell in the rankings.
One can beleive what they want when they hear people talk about the offer their son received.

FWIW, most coaches will ask that you and the player keep that private while attending, as it makes for difficult situations if found out by those looking to sqeeze out the max dollars. Understand also what that scholarship may include, baseball money, plus academic, maybe combined with state money, all of this may be considered by some a full ride, most consider bb money only a full scholarhip (ride) of the 11.7 (for D1) allowed.

I think, that with 25% minimum, these days a full scholarhip (bb money only) is literally impossible.

So PUHD, next time you hear that dad state his son got a full ride, just ask, was it all baseball money?

Of course you want to get as much money as possible. Do not always equate scholley amount offered with interest in your son. Each school is different and each schools situation at that particular time is different. You may get a 25% offer from one school and a 40% offer from another. The coaches at that 25% school may want your kid just as bad or even more but that may be all they have to offer. The other school may be in a posistion where they just have more to offer at that particular time.

Are you going to go to a school that is not your first choice or even second choice because they offer you more money?

TPM

When was the last full baseball scholly you have seen/


Dirtbags

I agree totally with what you see

The bigger the $$$ is not always the best---I think you have seen that---I know I have

First of all I've been reading everything and I thank you all for replying. Tomorrow is my visit and the school is either a first or second choice I'm not sure. But the amount offered would make a large impact on where they stand. Basically, I like the school and program and coaches and I want to see how much they like me back. If they make a good offer then they will probably be my #1. We'll see

Jerseydad's recollection of other teams knowing how much he'd been offered by another school matches my son's experience as well. Many times the coaches or asst. coaches know each other and they do talk -- even teams that are true conference rivals in every sense of the word. I've seen teams back off in deference to another team, maybe just not willing to get into a bidding war they aren't prepared to win. Also if a team sees a talented kid they just don't need but they know their friends need to fill that position, they will call to help the kid out.

It isn't always dog eat dog out there.

Last summer one-highly rated player we knew got a 40% offer from a frequent CWS contender, a 60% offer from a Big 12 school that usually makes a regional, and a near 100% offer (baseball + other monies) from a mid-major program that gets occasional regional bids. The player ended up accepting the 60% offer from the Big 12 school. Was he put off by the 40% offer? Hard to tell, but the CWS contender is known to throw tons of money at its pitching staff and this prospect was a position player. The amount offered does not always indicate amount of projected playing time.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM

When was the last foll baseball scholly you have seen

I have never seen a full bb schollie or known anyone who has had one. Pop Up said he heard someone got a full ride. Full ride contained what? Some bb money and some scholarship money? IMO that's not a full ride.

And I agree, the larger scholarship offer doesn't mean it's the best.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
If the school is state supported, the average % will be higher than 43%.

You do face certain realities, though. Pitchers are going to suck up a whole lot of the budget. Catchers and infielders next, esp. those with big sticks. If you're an OF, you're last in the pecking order unless you have one heckuva bat.

You can't compare yourself to an overall average. You need to compare yourself to the average for your particular position.

Can you explain how you say the average can be higher than 43%? Are you talking about in-state vs out-of-state?

I think I read somewhere that the Athletic Department's budget for one full scholarship was equal to the $$ of the average cost at that school school based on the % of in-state vs Out-of-state students.

Example- if in-state cost is $20,000 and out-of-state costs $30,000 and 80% of the students are in-state, then the average cost would be $22,000.

Therefore, the athletic department would have 11.7 X $22,000 = $257,400.

Does that sound correct?

So, an in-state kid getting a 40% of a full scholarship would actually be $8800, which is actually 44% of in-state costs.

Most offers, though are quoted as a % of your costs, whether in or out of state, or are in actual dollars.

The offer my son accepted was actually written up as 1 semester of tuition, 1 semester of meals and ALL books. We pay for housing and 1 semester of tuition and meals. It works out to about 44%. He is an OF, so we felt that was pretty fair?

quote:

Can you explain how you say the average can be higher than 43%? Are you talking about in-state vs out-of-state?
I think I read somewhere that the Athletic Department's budget for one full scholarship was equal to the $$ of the average cost at that school school based on the % of in-state vs Out-of-state students.
Example- if in-state cost is $20,000 and out-of-state costs $30,000 and 80% of the students are in-state, then the average cost would be $22,000.
Therefore, the athletic department would have 11.7 X $22,000 = $257,400.

My answer may be different than MidloDad.
The calculation that you outlined is one that I have seen from multiple HSBBW posters, and it suggests that the average scholarship could be larger than 43%. The rule which describes calculating the equivalency of each players scholarship has, until this year, lent itself to this interpretation.

However, I don't believe that the calculation is actually done this way, at least in D1.

The new rule is: 15.5.3.2.1 Additional Requirements. The following additional requirements shall apply to equivalency computations: (Revised: 10/20/08)
(a) An institution may use either the actual cost or average cost of any or all of the elements (other than books) of the equivalency calculation (room, board, tuition and fees), provided the same method is used in both the numerator and denominator for each element. Either method (or different combinations of methods among elements) may be used for each student-athlete on the same team or for separate teams generally.
(b) In computing equivalencies for tuition and fees, it is not permissible to average the value of in-state and out-of-state tuition and fees to determine an average cost for tuition and fees.
(c) Books shall count for calculation purposes as $400...."

Here's some supporting info: The college submits squad lists to the NCAA which keep track of the scholarships awarded to players, in addition to other player data like academic progress and seasons of competition used. The instructions (baseball is near the end of the document) includes this:
"Indicate the total of each student-athlete’s cost for tuition and fees, room and board, and required course-related books, based on the actual cost or average cost of a full grant-in-aid for all students at your institution. [Note: If you use the average-cost method, do not combine in-state and out-of-state tuition to arrive at a single average cost for tuition. Calculate separate average educational costs for in-state and out-of-state students.]"

So I believe that in-state and out-of-state players have their average costs computed separately, and the effect is that regardless of the fraction of in-state players, the average scholarship is still simply 43%. Although the rule that specifically states this is quite new, I think that the instructions for calculation has mandated separate accounting for at least a couple of years.

As for the total dollars available without exceeding 11.7, that will depend on the mix of in or out of state players.

I do think that a college could play some games with average or actual costs of room and board, if the college offers multiple levels of cost for that.

typical NCAA clarity!

Now THAT is clear as mud!

Thanks for that, was not aware of that rule change coming down last October!

Question: What do you do for someone like Clemson, where an out-of-state student who graduates in the top 10% of his class is given the in-state tuition rate as an incentive to attend?

Does the team have to apply the avg. in-state cost to such a player? Or would you consider the tuition reduction a form of academic financial aid that wouldn't count against your allotment?

2nd question: Do you think the "clarification" on this rule may have caught some teams off guard? Put them in a tight spot in terms of compliance?

As I read it, teams never have to apply the average cost; they can choose, on a player-by-player basis, to use actual or average costs. They could even use average for room and board but actual for tuition. So the school would prefer to handle an academically justified tuition waiver as an academic scholarship, so that the denominator of the equation becomes large. Interestingly, for two players who both are in the top 10% of their class, and who are awarded the same amount of baseball money, the in-state player would cost more against the 11.7 than the out-of-state player! Here's a numerical example: Assume that the total cost in-state is 20K, and out-of-state is 30K. If both players get 7.5K, the equivalencies are 25% and 37.5%. If a tuition waiver of 10K is awarded (doesn't have to be acadamically justified, just available to any non-athletically defined subset of out-of-state students, e.g. a grandparent is the resident of the state), the equivalency is unchanged.

The school is allowed, by 15.02.2.1, to adjust the cost to a player if the reduction is also available equally to non-athletes, but I think usually it will be to the college's advantage to leave the cost high, and award the difference as an exempt scholarship. Perhaps an exception would be need based tuition waivers. Need based aid isn't exempt, but I think a need based tuition waiver would simply reduce costs. I'm not sure.

As to the second question, I think (but don't know for sure) that the instructions for filling out the squad forms either changed or were clarified well before the rules were changed. So probably colleges were not caught unaware.