Giving lessons and coaching

You've brought up a very interesting question, epecially about the catchers being paid for catching, but there may be a difference between that and actually giving lessons, or being paid to coach.
I'll send a pm to 3FG to ask him to come give us teh ruling, or his advice.

What HS or college player, learning the game himself, would be qualified to give lessons anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

What HS or college player, learning the game himself, would be qualified to give lessons anyway?

I'm thinking as long as you're talking about kids 12-13yrs and under most would be fine teaching the basics.

There are a lot of very qualified high school and college players who could provide valuable knowledge to younger players even at a high level travel team.

We had a player who just graduated from high school who did not play college ball help coach a very high level of high school travel ball and other college players come back over the summer to help coach team.

Caoching yes, but giving pitching lessons (especially).
Do they themselves know how to properly throw each pitch? Do they know how to properly teach it? Do they know how to make changes in mechanics?

I don't think there are many qualified adults who could do this, let alone HS or new college players.

JMO.

What do they say, those who can't do, coach.

I would not want to say it is the "norm", but a friend was cut from his college team last fall and he gave private lessons (pitching) to several kids, he also is the pitching coach on a high school team which has several DI pitching prospects and they won their sectional playoffs this last season.

quote:

Originally posted by 4theloveofthegame:
I noticed a player offering to catch bull pens and such. What are the rules about high school and college players doing lessons, coaching teams, and offering services in their sport?

First of all, let's be clear that the NCAA has no objection to people having a job. At least I don't pick up any hint of that in the rules.

They are concerned about people who get paid for playing a sport, and about excessive compensation for jobs as a part of recruiting or retaining players, and there are a lot rules concerning those situations, some of which are rather broadly written.

Let's divide the question into two categories: 1) prospective student-athletes (high school students or JC players, mostly) and 2) student-athletes (players at a 4 year college). As usual, these are just my opinions.

In 1), working at almost any job for a fair wage is fine. It's OK to get paid to umpire baseball games, catch bullpens, give lessons, be paid as a bat boy, etc, even though baseball skill may be necessary to get the job. It's not OK to get paid to play baseball (or to be paid in a superstars all-around competition), or to play on a team where some of the players are paid more than approved expenses. It is also not OK to get paid more than the going rate for a job, or to get paid for work not performed, especially if the employer has any significant connection to a college that the player may eventually want to attend. It is not OK to be paid for athletic fame--a player of Bryce Harper's status plausibly could attract endorsement deals, but he shouldn't do that. Similarly, a famous high school player shouldn't accept $1000/hour to catch bullpens-- he'd be getting paid for the star power, and not for catching a baseball. Actually, I'm not aware of a specific rule against a high school student trading on athletic fame, but it doesn't come up very often, and it is a logical extension of the rule applying to college players.

In 2) Giving lessons is permissible, but the college's faclities may not be used, records have to be kept at the school, etc. A job in sales, especially athletic sales is subject to restrictions, and the player's name, picture, fame, etc. may not be used. There's lots more....

3FG, Thanks for your research and feedback, you are the best!

If you have a question to ask the NCAA make sure to inquire far in advance. At Thanksgiving my daughter was asked if she wanted to make some money teaching hitting to little kids over Christmas break. Her coach had her inquire with the NCAA. They responded in March.

Do the rules differ for Non-scholarship players? I vaguely remember that Brian Bosworth(Oklahoma Football) didn't accept scholarship money so he could promote and endorse his own images. Supposedly he made more money than he would have gotten from scholarship.

It is not a factor of being on scholarship or not, but being amateur status.

When one school won the College World Series and there were a few books were written on the CWS run, the players could not get compensated for the use of their pictures in the book nor could the current players do the book signings when it was sold at the book stores.

They also could not be compensated for autograph sessions.

I can only speak for myself, but two years ago, while in college, it was against NCAA rules to have a job while on scholarship period.

I think this rule was pretty strict considering my personal situation.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Brooks:
I can only speak for myself, but two years ago, while in college, it was against NCAA rules to have a job while on scholarship period.

I think this rule was pretty strict considering my personal situation.

That seems unusual to not be able to have a job while on scholarship unless it is a certain type of job that is based on being a "professional" in your sport.

There have been other posters who constantly profess that his son had several jobs while on a baseball scholarship.

My son's HS team went through a bunch of former HS players most of whom had played at higher levels as in and off season pitching coaches. Generally speaking the ones with D1 CWS and minor league experience seemed to have a pretty good grasp of pitching. The ones with less experience not so much. Among the ones who had a good grasp of pitching mechanics their ability to understand when and when not to make changes varied considerably. That's where coaching experience vs. being coached experience tends to come in.

An example was when my son was a rising junior in fall ball he took the SATs and then rushed to a game to face the recent HS national champs. He had put a lot into the SATs and had absolutely no focus while pitching that day. He was wild as heck but had good velocity and movement and with the help of an umpire with a high strike zone he survived his first inning. In between innings the pitching coach, a single A player at the time, took him aside and tried to make changes in his stride, etc. The changes were good. The timing wasn't. The control improved a little. The movement, velocity and being up in the zone all dropped off and he became a lot more hittable and gave up a long shot to their cleanup hitter on a pitch at the knees with little or no movement.

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Brooks:
I can only speak for myself, but two years ago, while in college, it was against NCAA rules to have a job while on scholarship period.

I think this rule was pretty strict considering my personal situation.

That seems unusual to not be able to have a job while on scholarship unless it is a certain type of job that is based on being a "professional" in your sport.

There have been other posters who constantly profess that his son had several jobs while on a baseball scholarship.

I do remember reading some while back that years ago, you could not work while on scholarship. I think one may be limited to what they can make while on bb scholarship, as the scholarship is considered grant in aid, and awarded to reduce costs. I don't kow 3FG would know better.

As far as I know, a player in college can coach or give instruction, if within reason, as long as he does not associate himself with the institution. Signing that book or receiving compensation assocaites the players with that program.

A few years ago, a football player at Clemson, brought his brother to live with him, his mother a drug addict, he thought it better to raise him himself (littel Ray Ray). Everyone wanted to help, they couldn't, the NCAA forbid the coaches wives to take him to school, or give him used clothing or feed him or allow the school to raise money for the family (which I think they made an exception later on).

You just got to be careful and make inquiries.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Brooks:
I can only speak for myself, but two years ago, while in college, it was against NCAA rules to have a job while on scholarship period.
I think this rule was pretty strict considering my personal situation.

The D1 NCAA Bylaw 12.4 and 15.2.7 says that a student-athlete may have a job. Here's the section relating to employment and scholarships:
15.2.7 Employment. Earnings from a student-athlete’s on- or off-campus employment that occurs at any time is exempt and is not counted in determining a student-athlete’s cost of attendance or in the institution’s financial aid limitations, provided:
(a) The student-athlete’s compensation does not include any remuneration for value or utility that the student-athlete may have for the employer because of the publicity, reputation, fame or personal following that he or she has obtained because of athletics ability;
(b) The student-athlete is compensated only for work actually performed; and
(c) The student-athlete is compensated at a rate commensurate with the going rate in that locality for similar services (see Bylaw 12.4).

Student-athletes are allowed to have jobs. However, there is a lot of paperwork that they must fill out so that the compliance office has record of it.

When I played in college we had to sign a form and tell what type of car we drove, did it have expensive wheels on it, etc. I'm sure that my players now have to sign the same forms. Just to make sure that student-athletes aren't receiving any special benefits because of their status.

On a side note, rules are interpreted differently by different compliance offices. There may be a number of schools that read one rule one way, and other schools that interpret it differently. So a lot of rules do differ from school to school just depending on the compliance office.