Good example

TPM

Buy into or not buy into what you so desire, that is your right--- but for many kids who are not super students and the redshirt year allows them to use some 30 plus credits in the frosh year why not take 12 credits during the baseball season and 16 to 18 credits in the fall when you have the additional time. If you are going to be there for 5 years why not make it comfortable and not try to be a hero

If you are playing baseball,or any sport for that matter, it is very tough to get a degree in 4 years much less 3.

You talk about players going to college to get a degree but didnt your son set his schedule on line so as to get drafted---I have no problem with that but don't be so darn righteous---does you son have his degree?

Again, a broad opinion that can not encompass the entire student athlete population. And doing it in three and playing a sport, that would leave no room for any social time. Although I agree school is utmost for education, while that is going on there is a lot of other things a student learns in college.
Everyones journey is differend and we cant say whats best for one is best for all.Personally each family has to come to a decision that fits their child, some may redshirt like THrits son so what, it worked for him, some may take 5 years, some are taking 6, to each is own.

TR,
If you read I did not mention redshirt, I mentioned taking 12 credits in a semester. Of course the player had a redshirt year and a medical injury, he only played one out of three years. Did he stretch it out when he could have?

Yes, son does not have his degree, he is one semester within graduation and received full compensation to do so (in other words a free year of college). He didn't get his schedule on line as to get drafted as you stated, but if he did get drafted he would have one year left. If he felt he was going to get drafted, he could have taken 12, why bother with going to classes, right?
This also means within 6 years of his entering school he can be included in the graduation rate if he takes two fall semesters of classes. He remained on track because that is the object. That is by the way, why we now have new NCAA rules. He only played one summer of summer ball, but in hindsight, for the summer he was off, he should have gone to classes.
I also might add some of his teammates (not scholars) took redshirt or had medical waivers and graduated in 4 years and used the fifth for graduate classes. Many gave up summer ball to take classes, to lighten the load. Some had to because they took classes then changed majors. For everyone of them, it was about school first even when they didn't think that when they entered. No advisor told them to take fewer classes to lighten up, it didn't matter who you were or your grade point average, you were there to go to class. If you were struggling, you went to study hall, even if you weren't you went to study hall. It was not all about baseball.

If you are going to school and someone is helping pay for it, why not take the most of the situation?

But I don't think some parents in general think about this, they are more concerned with their son's tough playing schedule than credits earned. JMO.

TPM


Did I say you mentioned REDSHIRT ???

Don't be so defensive-- but you come on here so righteous about 3 and 4 year degrees---yes it can be done but it is the exception not the normal road.

Again I do not think you see the entire picture from where you sit.

As long as a student athlete or a student for that matter is taking 12 credits a semester they are a full time student---there are circumstances for each student that are different from one another.

Fan,
It is very difficult to stay on track and eligible with 12 credits a semester.
If an advisor tells you it's ok to take 12 each semester, I hope he doesn't forget to tell a player he can't play summer ball, he would have to go to summer school.

BTW, as a parent of a possible JUCO player wanting to transfer to a D1 someday, be aware that in order to transfer to D1, now you have to be eligible BEFORE the fall that you wish to graduate. You cannot play in spring if you do not have the required credits for the transfer credit rules that the NCAA wants.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

It is very difficult to stay on track and eligible with 12 credits a semester.
If an advisor tells you it's ok to take 12 each semester, I hope he doesn't forget to tell a player he can't play summer ball, he would have to go to summer school.

Why?

TPM

I can tell you my son did it, yes it was 9 years ago but the 12 credit spring semester was used and he graduated as he should have after the redshirt year with a degree and a higher GPA than he had in HS and HAD A JOB WAITING FOR HIM !!!

By the way you need to read more closely---I never said 12 credits a semester---I said 12 credits in the spring semester---the fall semester is a heavier load

TR,
I was not talking about redshirt year, I was talking about the minimum that someone mentioned their player took because of his son's tough schedule.
Some players (many) take 12-13 in fall to adjust then 12-13 in spring due to the schedule. Does that make sense.
If you take a redshirt year for any reason, it's pretty obvious you are going to take more credits and use that to your advantage.

Again go back to my original post, I mentioned nothing about redshirt.

TPM

12-13 in the fall to "adjust" then 12-13 in the spring ??????== what does this mean?

I think your dislike for me is blurring your thinking and rationalization.

You need to relax and stop striving to be the "Mother Hen" on this site

TR,
You need to realx and stop being the grumpy old man on this site.

Who are you to tell me what I can and can't do?

What information do you ever provide that's helpful to parents here?

Does a parent know how many don't take the minimum in a calendar year and get below a C and then fall below eligibility GPA? Does a parent know how many don't have enough credits towards their major by a specific year and can't participate because of it. It happens, and it happens often.

But that's not the point, the point was that I hear too many parents say their kids take the minimum because the baseball and going to school is too difficult and take only 12 credits a semester. With the example I gave, you can do anything you want if you work hard enough.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
of why I don't buy into that 12 credits a semester stuff. And baseball players are generally better students than football players.

Life is about challenges and how you can handle them and how you set your priorities.

Going to school should be about getting a degree, sports are just the means to get you there and help mom and dad with tuition. It's not impossible to finish in 4 years, maybe even 3.

http://clemson.scout.com/2/735758.html

All depends on the student, the major, and the school. Students that can graduate in 3 years, even without sports are very rare. Some majors are a lot harder than others, etc. Lots of factors here.

I didnt say what my son was going to do as far as units. I am talking in generalities. I just think that every situation is different.Things happen sometimes, my daugter became sick and it took her 6 years.I just am enjoying this year and I try to enjoy each day with it being my sons last year of HS.I just think we need to be careful making such lines in the sand.My son is at this time going to attend a juco but dont know where he is going after that.Alot could happen in two years.This HSBBW is for discussion and everyone has different thoughts. I put education first , dont know what other parents of players think or do thats their decision for their families.

Hi- Just have to say this may just be one of the silliest threads I have read here.
Exactly how can one judge the academic, socieo-economic, and atheletic opportunities provided to any particular student. Type of student upon entry to college? Major - class availability - Yaada, Yaada, Yaada - everyone has a unique set of circumastance - just silly to make such generalizatios. JMO

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb:
Hi- Just have to say this may just be one of the silliest threads I have read here.
Exactly how can one judge the academic, socieo-economic, and atheletic opportunities provided to any particular student. Type of student upon entry to college? Major - class availability - Yaada, Yaada, Yaada - everyone has a unique set of circumastance - just silly to make such generalizatios. JMO

yep, yep, yep

..

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb:
Hi- Just have to say this may just be one of the silliest threads I have read here.
Exactly how can one judge the academic, socieo-economic, and athletic opportunities provided to any particular student. Type of student upon entry to college? Major - class availability - Yaada, Yaada, Yaada - everyone has a unique set of circumstances - just silly to make such generalizations. JMO

Thanks iheartbb! Great observation!

...one of 44's biggest whines on many recent threads..."It should always be this way..." What a bunch of bunk.

I'm sorry kids...but the reality on the ground is much different: it is a jungle out there. It's messy and ugly...and it getting tougher. Hey, I'm all for shooting for the stars, but outside of research and education, the biggest skill that a player and family need to possess is coping skills and the ability to adapt. This is not a static situation. Yes, There is an ideal....but make no mistake there is no norm. Virtually every player/family I talk to has some amazing story of perseervence.

Not every player has a wonderful high school experience, has superior negotiating power and as a result demands and verbals early for a "full ride" at the perfect school that offers a world class education and a top 10 baseball program that "loves" him. Not every player can avoid redshirt (According to many the quickest path to ruin). Not every player plays and graduates in three years, bats rotationally/linear (your choice) and throws 90. Not every player is drafted in the top 10 rounds, has bargaining power, demands a big signing bonus...and gets it. Goes to camp and plays in the majors in two years.

I see players struggling, working hard, researching options, adapting, and adjusting, growing, learning, building character, making honest mistakes (and many times debit) through the struggle. And frankly, IMO, that is the way that it should be. For "...it is passion and dreams that they have and experience and coping skills that they lack" not the perfect plan. Again, I am all for perfect planning and perfect education, and I celebrate success, and I have great respect for players who achieve without sideways paths, and I know they have busted their buts as well...but that being said...

In my opinion our most cherished threads and stories are not about the kid with the perfect plan, or even those who have achieved, but rather those who beat the odds, who overcome great adversity, who took the path that no one would have expected and still won...

I have my eyes on at least 10 kids on college teams who were simply counted out, or can't misses who were forced sideways (got hurt, got lied to, went to the "wrong" schools for the right reasons, aimed too high and are not playing, redshirted, coach demanded position changes, told to transfer elsewhere...) yet they have risen from the dead. Kids who are who are overcoming the odds, who are operating now on passion and guts and personal resources, with little help and no love. Kids who have taken the path less traveled. Kids who have learned lessons with far more relevance that hitting or throwing strikes.

Think I'll start posting some "reality" stories....these kids need to be celebrated. And when of them finally gets some ”love” I think I’ll make a big deal of it...Point is most players are not on the perfect path...but they are there for the right reasons, learning the right lessons.

For all of you on the “wrong path”...you keep those dreams, you keep working and caring, don’t let them tell you it can’t happen because you are “off course”.

44

I am not here to make freinds, if you find the thread silly that's ok.

If I offend anyone with the following, I apologize.

First of all I never mentioned redshirt. If you receive that opportunity , take advantage.

Very often here I find HS parents posting regarding how much time they put in for baseball, to get better to try to get a scholarship to college. HS ball, summer ball, camps, showcases, tournaments, pitching lessons, hitting lessons, wake up at 5:30 to hit the gym, then to class, then to practice then off for lessons and not home until 7 to have dinner and study. How hard they work (just like everyone else has had to do the same). All this time while doing the above, they are going to school 6-7 hours a day. Times that by 5. Someone posted a while back about their sons HS schedule, one posters sons day had more hours in the day in the gym and on the field than mine did in college.

Then all of a sudden their players go off to college to play baseball, and need to take the minimum because everything becomes too difficult where in HS they could handle it all. I find that amazing. They are more concerned with how their sons perform on the field so they can make the starting roster, but I'll bet never once bothered to find out what they need to do to remain eligible or to transfer later on or to take advantage of their scholarship opportunities to graduate in 4 years. I find that amazing as well.

I do agree with OB's post and that was what the article was about and whatmy post was about, beating the odds. Those are the ones who become successful, they don't hide behind, it's too difficult, no matter who you are or where you come from. And being there for the right reasons.

I understand that everyone has their priorities.

Thank you 44, I think that most of us would love to see those stories.

One size does not fit all

Great observation Observer....!!

I had asked why above because I wanted to know more about why it it was necessary to do/ask those things but I guess it was overlooked. After reading your great post, it's not necessary now for me to know why. When my son leaves for school next fall that is the time that he will learn to start making the right choices and decisions that will get him to his ultimate end - a degree.

quote:

Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
Great observation Observer....!!

I had asked why above because I wanted to know more about why it it was necessary to do/ask those things but I guess it was overlooked. After reading your great post, it's not necessary now for me to know why. When my son leaves for school next fall that is the time that he will learn to start making the right choices and decisions that will get him to his ultimate end - a degree.

My point exactly, sorry that I overlooked your post.

College coaches are not stupid, they can not take chances with a kid that they recruted to fail in class and for that reason they will determine (together with the player) how many credits a specific studend will have. And please, we as parents, some times underestimate our kids (that are not kids any more), they know their capabillity, and they love baseball, they are going to be sure to take the credits they can afford.

Any parent paying for any portion of tuition would love to have the kid out asap with a sheepskin in hand. But in reality every "schedule" is different. I think all you can ask is that the kid puts as much effort into school as he does on the field.

Also, many kids who do graduate in the 3-4 year time frame started college with credits in hand from HS AP classes. You throw that bunch out of the equation and you will see even fewer leave with diploma in hand after 4.

RZ1..true. Son fits into this scenario. He has been a joint-enrolled student his senior year of high school. When he "officially" starts college in the fall he will already have 21 credit hours under his belt. This is a nice advantage for him to have as it was already discussed that it would allow him to take a lighter course load in the spring and still stay on track if he is still playing ball in college.

quote:

Originally posted by Pitcher16Mom:
RZ1..true. Son fits into this scenario. He has been a joint-enrolled student his senior year of high school. When he "officially" starts college in the fall he will already have 21 credit hours under his belt. This is a nice advantage for him to have as it was already discussed that it would allow him to take a lighter course load in the spring and still stay on track if he is still playing ball in college.

You state a good point however remember to be eligible to play college sports you must adhere to the 24/48/72 credit rule each year in every division. Taking AP courses and summer courses helps in your GPA an requirements toward your degree but you still must take the minumum of 12 per semester (36 I think on quarter mester).

Yes..I gotcha. We figured its bound to help out even if he can lesson course load by one class.

TPM...would those same rules apply to D3?

I do beleive that those credit hour rules apply to all divisions. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

quote:

You state a good point however remember to be eligible to play college sports you must adhere to the 24/48/72 credit rule each year in every division. Taking AP courses and summer courses helps in your GPA an requirements toward your degree but you still must take the minimum of 12 per semester (36 I think on quarter mester).

Because they are so academically inspired I don't think that many, or any student who enters college with AP classes would even look at it as taking a "partime" shortcut. The best part about pre-college credits is having the opportumnity to take classes and investigate areas of that persons interest, or get ahead toward a graduate degree.

rz's post illustrates my point and I do apologize it there was misunderstanding. It's about working hard on and off the field, not killing yourself, but the easy minimum way isn't always the best way for many.

A player who obviously has done well in HS and carries over with AP classes usually doesn't have to take the easy road and IMO shouldn't, but use that opportunity to move ahead and try to graduate in 4 years. If by chance given a redshirt, he has the fifth year to use his scholarship money for graduate school and IMO what better way for later down the road.

quote:

In my opinion our most cherished threads and stories are not about the kid with the perfect plan, or even those who have achieved, but rather those who beat the odds, who overcome great adversity, who took the path that no one would have expected and still won...

I have my eyes on at least 10 kids on college teams who were simply counted out, or can't misses who were forced sideways (got hurt, got lied to, went to the "wrong" schools for the right reasons, aimed too high and are not playing, redshirted, coach demanded position changes, told to transfer elsewhere...) yet they have risen from the dead. Kids who are who are overcoming the odds, who are operating now on passion and guts and personal resources, with little help and no love. Kids who have taken the path less traveled. Kids who have learned lessons with far more relevance that hitting or throwing strikes.

Think I'll start posting some "reality" stories....these kids need to be celebrated. And when of them finally gets some ”love” I think I’ll make a big deal of it...Point is most players are not on the perfect path...but they are there for the right reasons, learning the right lessons.

O44, can't wait to read those stories!

Back to academics...

My son, a senior, will have no AP credits to apply toward his degree, so he is already behind the eight-ball according to many on this site. He is smart, but not academically-inclined, and has only a 3.0 GPA and SAT/ACT scores that would make some people wince. Now I as a parent could insist that he take 15-18 hours a semester to graduate in 4 years, but given his lack of passion for school, that policy might just be a recipe for failure. Do I want him to be a jack-of-all-trades and master of none? Or do I want him to take just enough credits to succeed in the classroom and stay eligible, which admittedly will cost our family some extra money, and come out with a higher GPA and hopefully more absorbed knowledge to apply to his chosen profession? Hmmm....seems like a no-brainer to me.

My husband, a college athlete, managed to squeeze 4 years of college into 5 1/2. He had the same type of attitude toward school that our son does, both in high school and in college. Eventually, his passion started to kick in as he took courses related to his major. Fast forward 20 years: he was just promoted to the highest level possible for his position at his large company. He insists that our son will land on his feet and I choose to believe him, realizing that we will have to be patient in the meantime.

Kudos to all the high school and college baseball players who are driven to succeed academically and strive for excellence in the classroom. I know a few that meet that description, but frankly I know a lot more who are a lot like my son. I believe they ALL will succeed in the end -- it's just that some will take longer to succeed than others.

quote:

Originally posted by observer44:

In my opinion our most cherished threads and stories are not about the kid with the perfect plan, or even those who have achieved, but rather those who beat the odds, who overcome great adversity, who took the path that no one would have expected and still won...

Yeah baby!!!

And as for mandated timelines - and what is "right" and what is "wrong". - What a bunch of ****. IMO.

I have taught both of my boys to do what is right for them - when it is right and in a manner that is right for them.
And if someone tells you that you arent following the "Plan" - run over them. Then back up and run over them again - just for the hell of it.

Because - ultimately - it is none of their god**** business.

IMO

Observer44,

Great Post.

Ifield08:I think a lot of young men fall into this category.Good points, lots of different roads lead to success on and off the field.

Infield08 and O44,

Great posts. There is no "one size fits all" in life!

Observer 44:
"I'm sorry kids...but the reality on the ground is much different: it is a jungle out there. It's messy and ugly...and it getting tougher. Hey, I'm all for shooting for the stars, but outside of research and education, the biggest skill that a player and family need to possess is coping skills and the ability to adapt. This is not a static situation. Yes, There is an ideal....but make no mistake there is no norm. Virtually every player/family I talk to has some amazing story of perseverence."

Infield08:
"Kudos to all the high school and college baseball players who are driven to succeed academically and strive for excellence in the classroom. I know a few that meet that description, but frankly I know a lot more who are a lot like my son. I believe they ALL will succeed in the end -- it's just that some will take longer to succeed than others."

I think my two sons demonstrate opposite ends of the spectrum. One was always a top student, took honors classes in HS and college, and is very self-motivated to earn As. The other had to work hard to earn Bs and was motivated to do well in class primarily to be eligible to play sports (and also to stay out of the parental dog house). He's a hard worker in many areas of his life, but just not that thrilled about academics. But the fact that the second son doesn't take 18 credits per semester or earn a 3.5 GPA in college doesn't mean he is lazy. That seems about as fair to me as if I called my straight-A son lazy for not being good enough at sports to play one in college. Different people have different strengths, and the path that works for one may be all wrong for another.

I do love the story of Ray Ray succeeding and earning his degree, even while caring for his younger brother. That is a great example of working hard and overcoming obstacles!

Julie

Since I may have brought up the mention that my son was taking 13 units at the recommendation of the school counslers ( a public school by the way), I felt I might add something.

I spoke to my son today regarding classes and he has told me that he will add at least one more class each semester next year.

We were strongly advised by the counslers that he should not overdue it his freshman year. We felt that we should trust their judgement the first year and see how it went. He has done fine so far and feels that he can add another class.

He has always gotten decent grades (3.4 in HS, 3.1 first semester of college). I know plenty of other kids that have struggled much more then him who are probably better suited to keep the lighter load.

To each their own.

You are supposed to learn in college.

Its not a race.

Learn - and screw the timeline.

Wow, this is a GREAT thread, in my opinion. Otherwise we wouldn't have been able to read Observer44's fabulous post. Or infield08's story, or MnMom's, and the list goes on. I love itsinthegame's "Learn - and screw the timeline!"

Another point to consider is the insurance angle. Doesn't a dependent over 18 need to be a full-time student to remain on the parents' policy? Full-time is 12 hours.

I probably shouldn't tell this tale, but my oldest son was a wonderful student in high school. When he signed up for classes at his college, his advisor "advised" him to take 18 hours the first semester so that he could lighten up a little during the spring. Ok, sounds good. On paper. 18 hours including biology with a lab and chemistry with a lab, very far away from home for the first time, baseball, a work-study, and he had just turned 18 days before he left for school. I'm sure that some kids can handle that schedule, but he couldn't and didn't. Which messed him up big-time-----------primarily his confidence. Oh, he stayed eligible and all....but the very good student suddenly didn't believe that he could be a good student. And decided that he no longer wanted to be a bio major.

Add an injury and major surgery to the mix the next year, changing majors, and now transferring schools, well, at this point, I just want him to graduate with a bachelors degree in something, period, let alone in 4 years. I would like to rewind the tape and have him only take 12 or 15 hours that first semester with only one lab science. He would have been so much better off. But he has learned--a lot. Not necessarily about stuff that he's graded on, though, but he's learning a lot. I guess he is "screwing the timeline".

I am impressed with the students who can "do it all". For some kids, learning comes easy to them and can handle a really full schedule. But I am just as impressed with the students who really have to work hard for what they get. And it may only be a "C".

quote:

But the fact that the second son doesn't take 18 credits per semester or earn a 3.5 GPA in college doesn't mean he is lazy. That seems about as fair to me as if I called my straight-A son lazy for not being good enough at sports to play one in college. Different people have different strengths, and the path that works for one may be all wrong for another.

quote:

Originally posted by play baseball:

I probably shouldn't tell this tale, but my oldest son was a wonderful student in high school. When he signed up for classes at his college, his advisor "advised" him to take 18 hours the first semester so that he could lighten up a little during the spring. Ok, sounds good. On paper. 18 hours including biology with a lab and chemistry with a lab, very far away from home for the first time, baseball, a work-study, and he had just turned 18 days before he left for school. I'm sure that some kids can handle that schedule, but he couldn't and didn't. Which messed him up big-time-----------primarily his confidence. Oh, he stayed eligible and all....but the very good student suddenly didn't believe that he could be a good student. And decided that he no longer wanted to be a bio major.

Add an injury and major surgery to the mix the next year, changing majors, and now transferring schools, well, at this point, I just want him to graduate with a bachelors degree in something, period, let alone in 4 years. I would like to rewind the tape and have him only take 12 or 15 hours that first semester with only one lab science. He would have been so much better off. But he has learned--a lot. Not necessarily about stuff that he's graded on, though, but he's learning a lot. I guess he is "screwing the timeline".

I know we may have gotten away from the topic, but if I may use your quote for an example.

Someone mentioned their son was advised to take X amount of credits. In another thread someone mentioned something about not always trusting the "advisor".

If anything this topic may make parents more aware of not only what their son is doing on the field but in the classroom as well. If my son called me to tell me he was taking biology and chemistry, I might think it could be a recipe for disaster. Not only do you have to think about staying eligible, but I am sure that everyone wants their sons credits to transfer if they decide to later on.
Mine wasn't one of those who took AP in HS, in fact he dropped all of his AP classes as a senior because he wanted the easy senior year. He also disliked going to class just as much as anyone else's son, it interfered with baseball IHO. He struggled like everyone else did when he first came to college. He had no choice in what was given to him, and in a way I am glad he didn't because he would have looked for the easy way out, which would have been too easy for him. He wasn't always give the best options either, having to take a class for grade where it could have been a pass fail, he got a D.

15-16 -18 credits doesn't have to mean a heavier load. But you as a parent should be aware of his options, just as you want to know about his options on teh team. Yes I do realize that some majors are more difficult than others.

College is expensive, very expensive. So are all the other things that you need to pay for at college, apartment, food, plus trips home, your travel, spending money, a car might be necessary, gas car insurance, etc. We only had one left at home, but it really wasn't in the plan for him to spend 5+ years at school, baseball or no baseball. We really didn't have the "screw the timeline" option. For those of you that do, consider yourselves very fortunate.

I got a pm from a parent, telling me that their son was advised to take only minimum credits for the first year, then second spring when he most likely could have handled more but was advised with a tough bseball schedule to stay light. Almost out of eligibility, there is about 1 year left and no more baseball scholarship. The wished they had known but trusted others.

TPM--one thing he is learning is that college is expensive--and he is now on his own to pay for it.
We've learned a lot, too.

Yes, we have learned the hard way that we have to be the advocate for our children in education, just like we learned the hard way that we need to be the advocate for our health care. We did trust the advisor to recommend what he thought was best, and we discovered that he was wrong. But lesson learned, it was OUR fault. We will not make that same mistake for our other children. And our oldest son has learned that lesson, too.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
We really didn't have the "screw the timeline" option. For those of you that do, consider yourselves very fortunate.

TPM,

Just a different perspective- I finished my degrees in 1980 and 1984.
Some people said I should have gotten my second degree sooner.
I couldnt give a **** what those people thought I should do with MY education - and I dont consider myself fortunate for anything.

But I am not going to college now - the boys are - or are about to.

They will finish it when they are ready to finish.

They will not finish it according to anyone else's timeline other than their own.

If it costs more to finish it on their timeline - they will have to suck it up and make it happen.



JMHO