Good For Baseball in The US?

You raise a couple of interesting questions and for reference we need some parallels to other sports...

In the fishing market, one that steadily lost numbers of participants until the past couple of years where it's flat, they say yes. Yes because it's statistically significant that if you don't participate by the time you are 15, you will probably never participate nor show interest.

However, an argument could be made for s****r. Where participation has skyrocketed in the past 20 years, the following has not.

So, as a well thought out and considered answer, I'd have to say...I dunno

FB, how do you define a casual fan base?

Tuzi,

I guess that would be the fan who goes to the park a few times a year.....someone who doesn't eat and drink baseball but is still a fan.

Just the devil's advocate here.

Down here in the sticks, i.e. Mokena, Frankfort, New Lenox, most of the talented kids are playing in many local travel programs. These programs include the Blue Demons, Wolves, Rebels, and Bobcats to name a few. However, the house programs are growing, atleast Mokena's is. I was the scheduler for 3 years and during that time I was scheduling games for 100 teams and over 1300 kids, from Shetland thru Colt. I've been out of it for the last 3 years, however the growth has continued. Additionally the organization was pushed to add a fall ball league, they had one this year. I'm sure a lot of this has to do with the housing growth in the Lincoln Way corridor. Obviously in Barrington, they aren't building those big houses faster than the good kids are leaving the house program for travel.

There are as many levels of "travel teams" as there are dads to coach them.

Just as long as "my kid" plays...there will be a new "travel team" out there.

I was listening to ESPN radio this morning and they started out talking about the lack of African-American's in the Majors. Down to 8% was the statistic they cited. Then the conversation turned immediately to the lack of American's in general in the Majors, whether they be black, white, or green. How does this relate to travel ball?

Well I think that the socio-economic aspect of youth baseball is limiting the talent base as well as the fan base. It is very expensive to play baseball without the community support that usually accompanied leagues. As travel ball expands, more private funding is necessary and this does preclude some families from participating. When you add in the cost of equipment, tournaments, showcases, lessons, cage time and travel, it becomes a middle class and above proposition. Then add in the fact that college scholarships are partial, the costs of college educations for baseball players are substantial.

I would further add that there may be an as yet undeterminable burnout and injury factor that goes along with the lengthy and demanding schedules of most travel teams.

There are a number of factors that I believe add to the decline in baseball in the US. I would not put travel baseball at the top of the list, but youth baseball in general has to be one of the main topics in the conversation.

The history athletics in america was built around the interscholastic model, the AAU and travel team programs seemed to only *******ize that model and for what. The whole travel system is premised on the ideology that what the interscholastic level does it not good enough.

great thread

quote:

Originally posted by Playball2:
The history athletics in america was built around the interscholastic model, the AAU and travel team programs seemed to only *******ize that model and for what. The whole travel system is premised on the ideology that what the interscholastic level does it not good enough.

great thread

At what high school do you coach?

The increase in "Baseball Academies" also comes into play. The kids that attend these facilities get exposed to the travel guys. The more talented kids and the (parents that pay for the lessons) will gravitate toward the promise of better competition, coaching etc. I don't think in-house local little league, Boys Baseball or Babe Ruth leagues will ever go away. At least I hope not. I think there is a good fit for every kid. Many parents of kids 12U and younger still find a way to include the kid in Little League, play enough games (usually the minimum) allowing the kid to still qualify for the LL All-Star team. The kids for Lemont/Homer that went so deep in the LL World Series almost all played for the Homer Heat Travel Team. We heard the roster was filled with Heat travel kids. I would almost guarantee that the Georgia team that won had some if not the majority, travel kids.
At 12U the LL World Series still holds tremendous interest and I don't think that will change any time soon.

Playball2, I don't know where all this bile you have towards travel ball comes from, but I'll try to give you a different perspective.

In our area, there are no middle school teams. 8th graders can try out for their HS JV teams, but otherwise there's nothing until HS years. I wouldn't say the travel teams are replacing the school teams, nor does their presence say anything negative about them. They simply fill a need that our school athletic programs don't fill. And the same continues with summer play, when school is out of session just as the best baseball weather arrives.

Even when you get to HS, some teams are well run, others are not. Our former HS coach thought that until you'd excelled at the HS level, you hadn't proved spit. At the same time, he benched younger players in favor of older guys just because the older guys had in his mind earned the privilege by working their way up through the program. There's a lot to be said for that approach, actually. But considering that many of these kids would like to be considered for college play, and since recruiting decisions are often made well before the first pitch of a boy's senior year, our coach left a lot of players with no help at all in getting recruited. So travel teams filled that void, as well.

College coaches struggle to see kids play in HS games that take place in scattered locations, at times when the coaches should be tending to their own teams. Travel ball fills this need with summer tourneys that concentrate college prospects in one location where they can be seen and evaluated head to head.

I love HS baseball. Wouldn't miss it for the world. But there are things a budding prospect needs that he cannot get by waiting until HS and hoping his coach is on the ball. A player with potential needs to start working to develop that potential sooner, or he may never even make his HS team, much less play. And even when he gets to HS, the travel team will have more to do with whether he's recruited, and by whom, than his HS team.

Maybe as a HS coach, this chafes you, if you see this as a diminution in your importance. In reply I would say, your importance is still there, but other things are important, too. Running down those other things won't make you any more imporant. Just bitter.

A big reason why American kids don't spend as much time trying to make it in pro ball is simply because there are so many options for American kids versus so few options for kids from other countries.

Why play in the minors for a summer season or a 6 month season and then not get paid and you have to find another job?

...Especially when all of your buddies are in college or working and starting on a real career path.

I remember my days in the minors long ago. The Latins from the Dominican, Puerto Rico and Venezuela had nothing to go back to. Many had started playing professionally as 15-16 year olds and if they didn't make it, they would be in the slums in the hills of Maracaibo or other places...of all of those countries with no future.

Different, but a real perspective. Nowadays, why would any kids drafted after the 10th round spend much time making it to the highest levels of pro ball? For the $1000 or so for 3 month summer seasons? For the $1200-1500.00/month for a "full season" team?

For the 2-10,000 chance of making it...Definitely not worth it.

How many "pro prospects" will be receiving their Releases between now and February...with no real options but to start working or start at a juco or other 4 year school.

Reality will set in in about 6 weeks.

Here we go again! As a 25 year volunteer coach, and only that, I've struggled with the notion, especially business-wise that there are much better options for developing players toward High school. For the most part, that would be travel. The exodus of good players to travel almost always leaves the cupboard bare at the in-house level. Believe me, the 50 year plus LL organizations embedded in Elgin, quite often are full of themselves, as though LL is the ONLY thing. As the travel players, or let's just say more commited players, leave for "greener pastures", additional playing time is created for those on the cusp of being better than "just" All-Stars. Jim Lefebrve did a coach's clinic at FVSA seven years ago and spoke of the "Baseball Pyramid", the base of which has the highest volume of players. As the players train and advance to the apex (or the top), less and less are commited and actually playing (meaning college or pro). It's important to note that many times the level of play and talent go hand in hand with the commitment to "teach the teachers". And the amount of time dedicated to training, is proportionate, as well. Each year I volunteer to coach the kids who sign up for our Fall League. I always take the 8-9 year olds, this year my son was old enough after playing his first year of kid pitch. The difference in level of play was unbelievable! Out of the twelve teams, six were outstanding. Observing their pregame rituals, it was obvious they were more than in-house. Great young athletes with excellent, commited coaches! (Playball2, at least three of these teams will be feeding to your school!) (FBD, likewise for your son's future alma mater!). After accumulating a pretty tough w/l record, many times in post game grasping for the right thing to say, the consensus on my part, was always to encourage and learn from what transpired. Unfortunately, if families, in-house team, and organizations don't commit to "reps", quality practices and highly competive play, the in-house programs will just become "schedulers" or "facilitators" of organized play. Even though growing up, there were other options for us 50+ older generations guys (like me), the "reps" we took in the Sandlot elevated our life-long passion for the world's greatest game! I would love to put together a group of in-house "at-risk" kids from the Elgin area, just like MLB is doing with their academies in the Dominican, and I think, especially if guys like, Gangler, Matsie, Playball2, etc., etc. were available to fund, coach, and develop these "kids at risk", a higher level of play would be achieved! Organized (read travel)ball has become for more than the middle class, and I believe that is why MLB is taking on the issues of the scarcity of players and opportunities for inner-city kids.
We are all blessed to be able to particpate at the level of our choice. It would be nice if we could at some time, for the sake of the future of the game, pass these gifts on to others less fortunate!
God Bless, and Merry Christmas to all!

Bill Downing
President
Fox Valley Sports Academy

Excellent and well expressed opinions on this thread.
To me it was simple. At 12, house was a joke for my son. He was not getting any competition. He matured early, and loved baseball. He needed to play better players to improve.
The house guys didn't like it. They needed players to throw strikes so the ball didn't keep rolling to the fence, and the games being boring and taking so long.
Each level has to survive on their own. Many of the "house" guys, want the better players to stay to keep the level of their leagues as high as possible. Baseball minor leagues employ many players to play with the few who will make it till they're ready for the bigs. LL kind of wants the opposite. to keep the good players around to help the not so talented ones. My son would not have developed. Plus, LL has father coaches. Like travel, some good and some bad, but not generally as knowlegable or as subjective in evaluating talent.
The program that was really develping players in our area was the high school feeder programs. They have ex-highschool or college players as coaches. They stress teaching fundamentals and that particular high school style of play. The house leagues were against those also because they drained the top talent.
It is simple. For kids to improve, they must get the best possible coaching and play against the best possible competition. That is found in travel and feeder programs. If the "more casual" player wants to play organized ball, their is house or the sandlot. For kids that want to excell to the best of their abilities, there is travel and/or feeder programs.

Great topic! Everything posted here pretty much explains why travel ball has become a necessity rather than an option for kids wanting to play in high school, college, or beyond.

Most of what has been posted, we, my son, has gone through. Our house league at times, discouraged travel ball and wouldn't even consider supporting any efforts to help the more talented kids play better competition. We knew going into high school that if he didn't have the exposure to travel ball, or play on one of the pre-eminent teams, he didn't stand a chance of making the team. We found a travel program that was not a 'high exposure' club, took extra lessons at a baseball academy to fine tune his abilities, and played multiple positions in the process. Through very hard work, he started most of his games freshman and sophomore year. He was the DH during the sophomore, junior year summer coaches tournament. On varsity, he started and played in every game, which also included the "sweet sixteen and elite 8" before he graduated. All this time still playing travel baseball and taking extra instruction at the baseball academy. He was not given the physical attributes or size that many, many kids are blessed with for baseball.

He will probably be starting, as a freshman on his college team, because of his performances during the fall "tryout" period, and the fact that he worked his butt off. It's not guaranteed, but his numbers were really good! His coach has already asked him if he was going to stay in New York this coming summer and play ball in the summer league. Travel baseball, extra instruction and dedication have helped him get to the next level.

There are many summer leagues for the college student, and many "casual fans" watching baseball. One team in particular in Wisconsin drew an average of 6,000 people for their games during the summer. Casual fans are alive and well I think, and baseball as a whole is doing very, very well. Just look at the statistics of how many more kids are getting drafted out of high school today. Kids I know from travel ball are playing in the minors!!

Travel baseball is very, very good. Period!!!!! JMHO

Midlo, no bile here, just a factual statement of the genisis of sport in america. Initially, The travel programs were developed as an extension of the in-town programs they represent. Today, in most cases travel teams no longer affiliate themselves with their community due to the fact that most of the kids are not from the community. Speaking in truths an attempt to explain that travel ball is an extension of the high school falls short of a factual statement. Specifically, within the my community (Palatine, Illinois (NW suburb of Chicago))there are atleast five travel teams, none of which have ever asked about what particular system I run. Despite your thoughts, I am not imbittered, I am realistic. Midlo you have one consideration, that is or was your son. I am not afforded that luxury. So in essance my role is not diminutized but rather accentuated. I have the unenviable task of getting kids to work within a system that is sound and encompasses all levels of talent. I am not sure about Virginia, but in Illinois "budding prospects" are not cut, they make their HS teams. I have no interest or energy in attempting to discredit travel programs (a good many of them do fine job themselves) I would just like to see it refined to the point that it is genuine and authentic and developmental. Three qualities that I am confident you or many others would agree are missing. Nevertheless, Merry Christmas

Playball

I sent you a PM