Good with Bad

Nice to see you involved and thinking of ways to motivate. I used to do the same thing except with batting. Using pop ups, ground balls, line drives, foul balls, etc. Money is a real motivator even at that age. The "Double or Nothing" would always come into play when the $$ started getting lopsided.

Why does a kid need money in front of him to work hard ???---


Where is the drive from within to succeed ?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Why does a kid need money in front of him to work hard ???---


Where is the drive from within to succeed ?

Ditto

Interesting.

I tried that with my younger guy.

After 15 minutes- he owed me $10.

Then he skulled me with some high heat.

When I woke up - I couldnt remember how much he owed me.

So much for that drill.

LOL

Working hard is easy and he does. Working smart isn't always easy. You do whatever works to motivate a given kid. They're all different.

BTW, Thanks for insulting my son TR. That's over the line and I don't appreciate it.

First of all they don’t need to be “given” money to make them work hard. This is NOT payment for work! I have seen my son’s hand bleed many times from hours of hitting baseballs on his own. The goal is improvement and ultimately success ... not just how hard you work. A reward system simply indicates improvement (or failure to improve) toward a defined goal. A parent can get innovative and create a real learning atmosphere for a young player. We all know it’s not the money but an inherent competitiveness of young athletes that drives them to work hard. If a player works hard and stays focused on a goal, that player will succeed. Along these same lines I think success deserves some sort of recognition. It can come in the form of a trophy, a ribbon, being selected to an all-star team, being selected as most improved player, being recruited by a college, hearing your name called on draft day, or it could be a dollar bill to a 10 year old kid. This monetary reward, while not a significant amount, seems to be a standard in our society for keeping score and recognizing success. (Capitalism I guess) I used it as a way to keep score and used it to demonstrate that hard work has its rewards. I will never fully understand human nature but I do know that keeping score and striving to be a winner is basic in all athletes. To the victor go the spoils! I’m sure a child psychologist could give you a better answer but that would cost money.
Fungo

CADad, I enjoyed reading about your innovative way to keep things fun for a fairly young kid who sounds like he's working hard. I suppose it depends on the player, but I can see how this would be a rewarding game for the player and the parent.

CADad

For those of us with boys already motivated to work, your innovative approach for focused effort on specific goals has real merit. It's obviously less about the money and more about spicing up the workout and having a little fun. Thank you for posting your ideas with all the details. I'm going to play around with it because I think my son will enjoy it. Keep posting my friend. Your posts are great.

R.

While I think the idea of using a reward system is a great idea, the only thing that I would caution is that he not injure himself.

In my practice I have seen several kids/young men that have hurt themselves by forcing the pitch to get an extra mile or 2 per hour on their radar gun. While this is only my opinion, I think that radar guns should only be used once or twice a month for training purposes, especially in pre-high schoolers. That way his speed gains are the result of sound mechanics, perfect practice and strenght gains, not pure exertion.

I love the idea of using a reward system for balls and strikes, I myself would like to play that as well, but something tells me I would come out in the hole, I never was much of a control pitcher.

Kids will surprise you with their desire. My 13yo son went to a camp for 13-18 yo at a D1 school before the season. It turned out to be more of a showcase with almost entirely 2005/6 grads. He did reasonably well during the "training" part of it but was clearly a boy among men and wasn't interested in playing the game on the next day.

Today I asked him if he'd be interested in going to a 4 day camp for HS players being held at another D1 school. He asked what the format would be and I told him there'd be games each day and it would be HS players, including seniors. I really didn't think he'd be interested. His answer was "Those are the people I'll have to play against, I want to go." The reality is that he'll be playing freshman ball and won't be facing those kids next year but it shows his desire. It'll also be a nice location for a family vacation if I can talk my wife into it.

CADad, I enjoy hearing about father's taking both time and interest in helping a son on baseball's wonderful journey. However, take this bit of info and file it away where it counts. Last month, when I was sitting in Dr. James Andrew's office in Birmingham discussing my 16 year old's next day Tommy John surgery I asked the good Dr. what was number one on his list of reasons that he is seeing younger players in need of repair. Without hesitation he said that the presence of the radar gun at practice, tournaments and showcases, especially where younger players are involved is a primary cause of arm injuries. Players, in his opinion, see the gun and try to muscle up and their arms and bodies are not developed enough to endure this stress. My son has thrown to a gun maybe 3 times in his life many months apart. His injury was attributed to something that probably occurred a couple of years ago. IMO, does it really matter in the grand scheme of things if a boy is throwing 67 or 71 when he is still growing? There is a price to pay and just because a pitcher says he feels OK now, why risk his future? Paying a child to try and throw harder and harder would make Dr. Andrews cringe. Good luck.

Spinedoc, great post.

itsrosy,
There's a big difference between a kid who is used to throwing for a gun throwing ten hard pitches after working strictly on control for 50 pitches than a kid who goes out and throws for the gun for an entire bullpen or game. There's also a difference between kids who religiously condition their arms with the Jobe excercises and those who don't. Nobody is going to hurt their arms by throwing ten pitches hard after they are fully warmed up unless there is already something wrong with their arm.

Your son's arm was injured and by your own admisssion there's very little chance it was related to throwing for a gun. Most arm injuries occur over long periods of time and are due to over use and not due to one session of throwing hard.

We were also putting him on the gun to establish a baseline since we'll be working a long toss program for the next several months and we want to be able to see if the long toss results in any velocity gain beyond that which would normally be expected during that period of time. The long toss will of course result in his putting far more effort into his throwing than trying to throw hard for a gun.

CADad

In all my years on this website, it amazes me that the opinions and advice from Dr. Andrews is always either minimized, rationalized, or even ignored. It never fails.

grateful, it is part of human nature I imgagine. It is always someone else's child who gets in an auto accident, always someone else's child who sustains a serious injury. I never imagined that my son would need TJ as a 16 year old. My post was intended to give some info right from the foremost sports medicine orthopedic surgeon in the country. You can believe it, don't believe it, or whatever.

CADad, I know you are monitoring your son carefully and acknowledge that the real arm strengthening will come from proper use of long toss...I still maintain, however, that a 13 yr old throwing to a gun when his growth plates are still open has nothing to do with doing Jobe exercises or not.

itsrosy and grateful,
You've taken a statement made by a knowledgeable individual, which by the way is based only on anecdotal evidence, and expanded that statement to cover a specific situation that is wasn't meant to cover.

Dr. Andrews was referring to some situations in which young pitchers are most likely to go out and throw too hard for too long without proper warmup. The reality is that we did similar things with or without radar guns trying to impress scouts when we were young.

He wasn't referring to a carefully planned workout session where proper warmup and throwing was followed by a limited number of pitches thrown hard for the purpose of developing arm speed, then followed by proper exercise and stretching to enhance recovery.

BTW, my son is following a very similar protocol although obviously not from the very beginning to maintain, protect and hopefully strengthen his arm. It is my opinion, not based on any research, that when players come back from TJ surgery throwing faster than they did prior to the surgery it is most likely due to the re-hab protocol.

My son just came off 11 days without touching a baseball to allow his tendons and ligaments some recovery time. He started back yesterday with arm circles, tubing and light long toss followed by plyometrics and sprints. Today he'll go to Jaeger's long toss camp and will do that MWF through the end of next week. After that is over I'll long toss with him 3 days a week followed by a light bullpen focusing only on control and we'll do light long toss 2 days a week (T,Th) with two days a week off from throwing for recovery. That's the plan until it gets too dark to throw in the evenings. We'll see how he's throwing then and work from there.

It's easy to blame radar guns and even coaches for abusing/overusing pitchers, but the bottom line is that the vast majority of kids these days aren't conditioned to throw the baseball the way they should be. Especially those that throw it hard.

I commend you CADad for taking an active role in your son's development. You can always do less, which is the more popular approach these days, but I like the approach you've taken with your son.

Jason

itsrosy.....I read your post and agree with you....it was, as you wrote "intended to give some info right from the foremost sports medicine orthopedic surgeon in the country." I appreciate your post and am always glad when all the readers can learn what Dr. Andrews and other experts have to say.

I thank you for your input, and my earlier comment was directed at those who wrote after you.

Again, every time I have read about Dr. Andrews and his opinions in these threads, people either ignore them, minimize them, or rationalize their own ideas if they are opposed to his.

CADad.......I have no doubt that you are taking great care of your son's arm, but to say that Dr. Andrews' statement "is based only on anecdotal evidence" is just a way for you to rationalize why you disagree with his statements.

You can feel free to disagree with Dr. Andrews if you want, but his statements are based on direct experience in his office and in operation rooms with players who have had serious arm problems.

I will reiterate what most others have ignored during the past few years on here. Dr. Andrews and the other medical experts, in an article in "Collegiate Baseball" in July of 2004, wrote that pitchers should not play baseball or softball or do throwing drills, etc., for AT LEAST three months a year.

I predict that this statement, though it is paraphrased, will again be overlooked, ignored, etc.

Again, itrosy.....I personally thank you for posting invaluable information from a man we can all learn from.

So all pitchers need to do is rest from throwing for AT LEAST 3 months per year and they don't have to worry about arm injuries? Does he only perform operations on pitchers who throw year round?

Grateful,
How much time do you think Dr. Andrews has spent watching pitchers throw at showcases and measuring the stress on the arms of pitchers throwing for a gun vs pitchers not throwing for a gun? Heck no. He got his information from asking his patients what their throwing habits were. Anecdotal evidence. He also doesn't have a database of healthy arms and their throwing routines for a comparison to determine if damage was a result of throwing for the gun or simply arms predisposed to injury throwing for the gun.

He's a surgeon and not a researcher. He's basing his comments on anecdotal evidence.

Now you made the statement that I disagree with his statements. I didn't say that. I said that I had a different interpretation of what his statements meant than you seem to.

If pitchers didn't play baseball or softball or do throwing drills 12 months per year there would be far fewer arm injuries.

There is a valid reason for taking a significant time off each year and that is to allow tendons, etc. which heal more slowly than muscles time to recover. There is a valid reason for not taking more than 3 months a year off and that is to prevent skills and abilities from deteriorating.

Every individual is different and some need more time off and some less. Not every pitcher throws enough during the rest of year to need 3 months off. Some pitchers do enough damage to their arms that they may need more than 3 months off to recover.

FlippJ....I think you know the answer to that question; that was just ONE example of what is ignored by people who have their kids do things that the medical experts suggest not to do. The article included several other causes for the increased umber of arm surgeries.

And CADad.......would think most people would take recommendations from the medical experts than from parents who do their research from places that they can get the results they want.

CADad....you are only proving that I was right when I said that some people will ignore the good Doctor's advice as a way of justifying their own beliefs. You wrote that "there is a valid reason for not taking more than 3 months a year off and that is to prevent skills and abilities from deteriorating." If you are from Southern California, your kids are probably pitching more innings than most kids in Michigan, and thus I believe it would be very important for them to take the time off. But apparently, those that do not wish to risk having their kids' skills and abilities deteriorate, will instead risk the overuse that is one of the reasons for the increased number of arm injuries and surgeries.

It is much like managing a baseball game: if you manage aggressively by trying to execute things like steals, hit and runs, etc., you run the risk of poor execution and the resulting failures.

There is more than one way to develop a pitcher; listening to the medical experts and professionals is a good place to start. A full-time Marlins Scout recently told me that all of their minor league pitchers are told to avoid throwing for three months after their seasons end. I guess they aren't concerned about the deterioration of their skills.

I would like to add that, IMHO, Jobe exercises are not enough to stave off future problems. Many kids today are NOT ATHLETIC. This is not to say they lack talent, but simply that many kids today are somehwhat 'soft' when it comes to athleticism.

In addition to Jobe, pitchers must work up a rock solid core - from thighs into hips into abs and lower back. Many kids won't want to do this work because it is demanding. It is not 'fun'. It is, however, necessary for a shot at longevity - and will also add mph and hopefully increased accuracy.

Grateful,
I also wrote that there is a valid reason for taking time off. You didn't bother quoting that. We haven't decided how much time my son will take off this year yet. He probably threw a few more innings than some kids in Michigan and less than others. This year wasn't very important in the scheme of things so we tried to keep his innings limited. He threw less than 40 innings in the regular season this year and probably about the same overall in tournaments throughout the entire year.

There are knowledgeable people who believe in throwing nearly year around. There are knowledgeable people who believe in taking a break. There are pitchers who have thrown year round without ill effect. There are pitchers who have taken months off and ended up with injuries. It is very much dependent on the individual. Historically, I never had arm problems despite overuse that would make some of these LL all-star managers look enlightened. Hopefully my son has inherited the rubber arm from me and more talent from somewhere else in the family tree. In any case, we'll keep track of how his arm feels, continue to condition his arm, shut him down as long as necessary if he begins to feel pain and monitor any soreness or fatigue carefully as we continue to try to develop his arm strength.

As far as the Marlins go so what. The Dodgers have in the past prevented their pitchers from throwing longer than 120'. Does that make it right? Most organizations endorse icing after pitching. The Diamondback organization doesn't. They are all advised by medical professionals. Who is right?

Krakatoa,
He does his core work. It takes a little prompting at times but he does it.

Grateful,
BTW, I'm done with this topic. You and itsrosy have presented some good information for people to consider and anything beyond what has already been posted will just result in arguments and serve no useful purpose.

Does Dr. Andrews give private pitching lessons?



Jason

CADad - didn't mean to imply otherwise. I was just posting an add-on for the general readership to those folks who'd mentioned doing Jobe.

Hey, are you thinking of doing the PG Northern Cal Underclass this year or in the future? I think our kids are about the same age - am considering it myself, possibly next year. Depends on where summer conferences take me.

Krakatoa,

Are you living in the states now? What showcase did your son recently attend?

Jason

Krakatoa,
We'll have to see how my son develops and where the showcases are in a year or two. He's going to go to a college camp at the end of the month. He's not going to impress anyone as a 13yo almost 14, how time flies, he's just going for the experience.

Exactly! Mine had just turned 14 when he did his first little showcase -- it was purely for his experience and enjoyment and so he could see how wonderfully REAL ballplayers (not those stuck in Korea!) play the game. Same thing again this year, he'd just nipped 15. He's enjoyed both experiences and has had an eyeful of what it means to be a solid STATESIDE ballplayer.
The next two summers will be much more important (after soph and after jr years). Am also in the process of trying to find a summertime place for him to play when we get back next time.
The logistics are killing me!!
Anyway, continued good luck to you and your son - you have some great ideas and thanks for sharing.

Hugh????? I never heard of motivating with money or lack thereof. I cannot imagine this will work long term and may backfire. In my humble opinion, if your son loves the sport and has the drive he'll motivate himself. Also, he needs to be careful with his arm. We had a college pitcher spending the summer with us and he taught my son about taking care of his arm and when to rest it. He taught him how to throw certain pitches so as to not to risk injury.

northwoods gal,
You may not have heard of motivating with money but obviously some of the posters whose kids are now playing pro ball have. It is nice to say that the kid loves the sport and will motivate himself but my experience in talking to the parents of highly motivated young men playing professional baseball is that they provided a little push here and there to develop the motivation and the good work ethic. You'd be amazed how easily that hard working 12yo can get off track a couple years later when HS and the distractions it offers rolls around.

Pushing too hard can burn kids out but relying on the kids motivation and not providing enough support can lead to lack of effort. Finding the right balance is the tough job we parents have and since no two kids are exactly alike it is an art not a science.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Why does a kid need money in front of him to work hard ???---


Where is the drive from within to succeed ?

"When I was 8 years old (my father) told me that 'one day Major League Baseball will draft you for a lot of money,' ". "And he said 'until then, I'm going to pay you for what you do.'

"It was basically a dollar a strikeout. If I walked someone, I owed him three dollars. If I hit someone, he would give me five dollars just because he didn't want me to be scared to throw inside. I kind of had a heyday the last couple of years with the strikeouts."

From an article about Mark Pawelek first round pick of the Cubs. All kids are different. Sometimes you need to find something that does motivate them just to get them going.