Greg Maddux on 0-2 waste pitches

Agree with Maddux 100% on this issue

@adbono posted:

Agree with Maddux 100% on this issue

Yeah. Also 0-2 contact is still the best contact a pitcher can get.

Sure you want to avoid a too fat pitch and ideally throw a bit off the plate bit even if you throw a FB down the middle the league wOBA on that this year was .234 (worst overall woba this year in mlb among qualified hitters is .254 and league average like .320) so messing over the middle 0-2 is not that terrible especially since hitters aren't geared to do damage, maybe even sitting off speed.

Yeah it kinda sucks if you give up a weak single in an 0-2 count but as long you don't get bombed I wouldn't bother a pitcher with that, definitely better than getting to a full count after 0-2.

@adbono posted:

Agree with Maddux 100% on this issue

Oldest pitched in HS before pitch count.  Soph year he'd get ahead 0-2 or 1-2 and we'd throw 1 or 2 pitches in the other batters box.  I'm like "what the heck are we doing, the batter has 0 chance of hitting anything you throw for a strike".  Identify the 2/3 high school batters in each line up that can hurt you.  Pitch to them but still trust your stuff........the others, go right at them, and if you can get them to ground out to 2nd or SS on the 1st pitch, that much better.  It was all about mind set "you are better than them, no need to waste pitches that you may need to the better hitters in the line up.  He talked to his coach about 1/2 way through the year (I knew better than that ) and his approach changed. Averaged less than 100 pitches a start the rest of his 37-3 career........ with never a arm issue (I told him it was because he didn't thrown hard enough and threw a "football curve" instead of a real curve).  But it paid for a college education................

@russinfortworth posted:

Oldest pitched in HS before pitch count.  Soph year he'd get ahead 0-2 or 1-2 and we'd throw 1 or 2 pitches in the other batters box.  I'm like "what the heck are we doing, the batter has 0 chance of hitting anything you throw for a strike".  Identify the 2/3 high school batters in each line up that can hurt you.  Pitch to them but still trust your stuff........the others, go right at them, and if you can get them to ground out to 2nd or SS on the 1st pitch, that much better.  It was all about mind set "you are better than them, no need to waste pitches that you may need to the better hitters in the line up.

This is totally my Soph son but I also see it a lot with other starting/quality pitcher at his age.  It’s not always in the other box but the wasted pitch is definitely not seen as a strike right out of his hand especially by the better hitters.  He ran up his pitch count early recently and got pulled earlier than usual because of it, which he hated and I loved 😁

My son always tries to throw a competitive pitch 0-2. It’s either a breaking ball that starts over the plate but ends up a ball or a sinker/2 seam that does the same thing on the other side. No chance they can hit it hard, might get a swing and miss, or sets them up, for the next pitch. He never throws anything straight 0-2. As mentioned above, a weak ground ball or a popup 0-2 is just as good as a strikeout.

I went after hitters just off the plate at 0-2. One time in Legion ball (we didn’t have travel then) I hung an 0-2 curve. The intent was to have the hitter back off the plate (lefty on lefty) for a called third on the inside corner. He hit a three point homer. It’s what I called it because the hanger he hit sailed through the goalposts on the football field behind the right field fence. To that point it was the farthest anyone had ever hit a ball off me.

It also helps to have a read what 2 strike approach the hitter has.

Some guys will expand a lot and others will stay in their zone and accept the risk to be called out on a pitch that is a ball outside.

There are also guys who sit breaking ball all the way and just try to foul off the fastball. Or guys who still time it off the fastball and try to take breaking balls (because a lot of them will be balls) and in emergency try to foul them off to get another chance at a fastball.

If you know that you can adjust the approach.

Lefty

what is son pitch count enforced by your son coach. Two extra pitches each inning reduces the innings pitched.

when I coached College. My rule “ throw strikes “ do not waste a pitch.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Lefty

what is son pitch count enforced by your son coach. Two extra pitches each inning reduces the innings pitched.

when I coached College. My rule “ throw strikes “ do not waste a pitch.

Bob

In the fall it’s definitely less than 80 but there are a lot of arms that need some innings so generally fewer than 50, and more often 2 inning max (or about 30-ish pitches) .  

In my example, my LHP’s “cute” first inning set him back 30 pitches. He then stopped wasting pitches and averaged about 13 pitches an inning over the next 3 innings.  

@RJM posted:

I went after hitters just off the plate at 0-2. One time in Legion ball (we didn’t have travel then) I hung an 0-2 curve. The intent was to have the hitter back off the plate (lefty on lefty) for a called third on the inside corner. He hit a three point homer. It’s what I called it because the hanger he hit sailed through the goalposts on the football field behind the right field fence. To that point it was the farthest anyone had ever hit a ball off me.

Really can relate to this post.  Two outs and LHP is up 0-2 on a RHP.  Strike 1 looking at a 4seam inside.  Strike 2 swinging at a sinker middle/outside.  He gets cute and hangs a curve middle that gets pounded to the fence.  I’m almost positive he was waiting on that curve because my LHP walked two that inning after getting ahead and not throwing a good breaking ball.  He hitter almost certainly knew he would throw at least 1 curve and most likely in that 0-2 count.  Lesson learned I hope.

I agree but what he is not saying is that he was never over the total white of the plate on 0-2  A waste pitch has different meanings to coaches.  My idea was always they have to think it is a strike.  Otherwise, what did you achieve?  As a coach, it was easy to know how opposing coaches approached 0-2 and I could prepare my hitters for that. 

I've posted this before I asked my pitchers to be able to throw "white," black/white" and "black" of the plate.  Black was typically a slider.