Greg Maddux's Arm Action

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
There have been a lot of debates about Greg Maddux's arm action and whether he shows the ball to CF or to 3B. I have extracted a number of frames from one of bbscout's clips of Maddux (in which he's throwing a 93 MPH fastball) and posted them to my web site. Maddux's mechanics are generally similar to this today, especially when it comes to his arm action.

Below, I give my interpretation of what I see in those clips.

95.

96.

97.

98.

99.

100.

101.

102.

103.

104.

105.

106.

Frame 106. Release Point. Notice how far (c. 3 feet) Greg Maddux's PAS foot has come off the rubber. This helps him release the ball closer to the plate and helps his hips (and thus his arm) to smoothly decelerate.

I can't see his hand or the ball in 101 thru 103. Is there a way to make it more clear? The picture I mean.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
I can't see his hand or the ball in 101 thru 103. Is there a way to make it more clear? The picture I mean.

No.

That's the problem with video and why you sometimes have to rely on stills. This works as long as you reconcile the stills with what's on the video.

So again you post a can't see the hand and use it as proof.
The controvery is irrelavent when it comes to arm problems.
People who are more knowleable than you and have done more reasearch with conclusions have taught this. If you try it it is very natuaral as you hold the ball loose and start to rotate your arm following with the hips your hand gets on top of the ball and doesn't stress your arm.
Again you are trying to find an issue where there is non.
I suggest you go back to the lab and get you research done before you go selling your misguided beliefs.
You tell people not to do something with less knowlege than most and no proof.

My son has all my books or I would show you how pitchers hold the ball clearly without resorting to selective photos and video you can't even see.
I suggest you do some serious reading although some people you can lead to the trough but you can't make them drink.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
So again you post a can't see the hand and use it as proof.

There is no M or Inverted W to be seen.

I think that's significant.

Change the subject.
You have no data to prove that either causes arm problems.
Get a copy of "the Pitchers Edge" computerized analysis of pitching mechanics. My son's doc has a paragraph or two in the book. A lot more scientific than you rediculous statements.
Also get a copy of The Complete Pitcher by Louisville Slugger. It shows a ton of frame by fram deliveries of many of the great pitchers. These are unrefutable photos from start to finish and show several styles of delivery. You just might learn something but then again may be not.
At least you can see every detail. It also is very entertaining and tells you about work out, diet and corrective measures for all pitching problems.

I can't believe I am saying this ! I see the M in 98-100.

quote:

There is no M or Inverted W to be seen.

I think that's significant.

Its significant for Greg Maddux. Not as much for John Smoltz.

Chris, IMO the pitching arms elbow reaching a certain hieght does not determine arm action. The arms action is a continuous movement.

There are great arm actions that reach the M-scap (Smoltz), and great arm actions that dont(Maddux).

IMO a study should be done on the throwing programs of Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine while they were in Atlanta. There may be much more definetive answers there.

quote:

I see the M in 98-100.

Thats the W.

chris-

Here is an example of Hodge's sequence + some N-man:

95-6:has broken hands with internal rotation, front leg internally rotated.
elbows coming up by aBduction while legs spread by Abduction.
hips coked, head back.some scap pinching. "beachball".

97: start of synched back arm and lead leg external rotation, throwing hand starting up, front knee flaring. glove arm staying internally rotated

98: more of same, hips opening, head still behind center. "stepover"

99-100 shoulders/merrygoround starting turn forward, head coming forward , lead arm still internally rotated,lead wrist flexing lead elbow still up, front side stretch, ready for landing on firm flexed front leg spine startinf to arch/load ferris wheel.


101-103: more of same. Wolforth likes to talk in terms of "DOUBLE bow arch bow" as an addditional detail of the n-man model. the first being the vertical spine extension/arch/load, the second being the horizontal scap load/chest thrust

103-4:spine and scap unload,back knee starts to reactively flex. this UNloading of the spine scap finishes externally rotating/laying backthe arm/forming the arm loop.

105-6: rapid acceleration/whip of arm loop primarily by internal rotation, secondarily by arm/forearm extension.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I can't believe I am saying this ! I see the M in 98-100.

I'm fine with the M in 98-100 because it's horizontal, not vertical (e.g. it's not an actual M or Inverted W).

Pain most kids are taught to break their hands in a circular motion as you have found out. This is solid pitching advice. It looks like this M you talk about. It is much different than say a QB who brings his arm up through the zone with a short quick realesae also like an infielder / catcher who usually don't have time to reach back.
This M is a natural unstressful part of thye devivery and alows you to get your throwing arm in max power position. One D1 coach tried to get my friend to start his throw much like a catcher taking glove and ball back and coming stright forward without thye circular hand break. A scout who had been following him tould him to not throw another pitch that way. He asked for a RS since he was in his senior year and thye scout is setting him up with a college in Florida. I have seen this approach in a college showcase and it is dangerous.
What do you suggest as a proper motion ?

I mean Pain you have a 10yo old son and I am interested in where you think you have aquired the knowlege to advise young pitchers that you know better than the ML pitching coaches.

By the way you are not the 1st 10yo 's dad who had weird ideas. One guy was from a country were cricket was the big deal and he tried to apply a Bowler to BB pitching.

quote:

Pain most kids are taught to break their hands in a circular motion as you have found out. This is solid pitching advice.

I'm interested in seeing a pitcher who circles up AND creates a W, M, high or low elbow....do you have any clean clear video you can send to me so I can post it here? YouTube is useless....I need to be able to download the clip. Min 30fps, prefer 60fps.

Cap I am not sure ifr you are asking me but I certainly do not agree with his terminology. When the hands break the arm circles downward until the elbows come up to shoulder height. I am assuming that is his M. The fore arms are hanging in a downward position for a flash of a second before the glove arm and throwing arm reach the power position.
The whole discussion of this in regards to arm injury is silly.
The arm is in a relaxed state until the throwing hand is at max power position.

BobbleheadDoll-

You remarked.....

quote:

most kids are taught to break their hands in a circular motion as you have found out. This is solid pitching advice

You didn't put a ? behind "This is solid pitching advice. Therefore, you imply that you do agree with the terminology. If this is the case, I'd like to see a pitcher that does this. If not, forget about it.

quote:

When the hands break the arm circles downward until the elbows come up to shoulder height. I am assuming that is his M.

This is what used to be referred to as an inverted goal post or scarecrow; elbows higher than the shoulders, inverted W (or M).

quote:

The arm is in a relaxed state until the throwing hand is at max power position.

Disagree on this totally based on the balistic movement of the throwing arm. How is it possible to hang onto (grip) a 5oz. object with a relaxed arm, when that arm (and hand) goes from 0mph to 95mph in .5 sec performing a balistic movement? Can you actually have a relaxed arm while having a good grip, and then tell youself to make sure you grip tighter now that the hand is in the power position.....all in <.5sec?

I've always considered using the term "relaxed arm" as a term that invokes a slow arm action and does not support the ultimate goal of throwing at high velocities.

JMO

Cap you amaze me. You know exactly what i mean. Pitchers going back with their arms do not tighten up until they start to accelerate. And I do not mean stiffen up. The ball grip is loose until they start to get on top.
Their are different opinions about hand break in a circular motion but I stand by what ML coaches have shown me.
Some of the stuff you guys go on about is less than silly.

quote:

You know exactly what i mean. Pitchers going back with their arms do not tighten up until they start to accelerate.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean....all that elbow pulling, all that scap loading, all the ligaments, tendonds and muscles pulling tight and all that whipping starting....all done with a relaxed arm. Got it!

I actually thought my original request was important, not silly.

I acually thought you should be asking Pain since I don't think any of his silly stuff relates to arm injury.

quote:

all that elbow pulling, all that scap loading, all the ligaments, tendonds and muscles pulling tight and all that whipping starting....all done with a relaxed arm. Got it!

I suppose that going back wards with the arm is counter productive to the acceleration phase of the delivery.
At a point where the arm starts forward is when the ligaments are stressed. The whole point of getting elbows to shoulder height is to reduce stress.
We always referred to inverted goal posts as well. It doesn't mean that the arms are hanging straight down from the elbow either. The whole idea is to get the shoulders rotating together as the arm whips forward.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain most kids are taught to break their hands in a circular motion as you have found out. This is solid pitching advice. It looks like this M you talk about. It is much different than say a QB who brings his arm up through the zone with a short quick realesae also like an infielder / catcher who usually don't have time to reach back.
This M is a natural unstressful part of thye devivery and alows you to get your throwing arm in max power position.

This is better described as a "W".

An "M" implies that the elbows are high when they are in fact low.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:One D1 coach tried to get my friend to start his throw much like a catcher taking glove and ball back and coming stright forward without thye circular hand break. A scout who had been following him tould him to not throw another pitch that way...
What do you suggest as a proper motion ?

What Greg Maddux does in the clip above.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I mean Pain you have a 10yo old son and I am interested in where you think you have aquired the knowlege to advise young pitchers that you know better than the ML pitching coaches.

I know I have done MUCH more study than most pro pitching coaches. One exception is probably Rick Peterson of the Mets.

I know this because if you listen to some of what they say, they make no sense. It's obvious that they've never looked at high-speed film of a ML pitcher.

Instead, they've only looked with their eyes, which simply aren't up to the task.

Also, keep in mind that my friend wants me to speak to his entire scouting staff in January and explain to them how I analyze a guy's mechanics. Very few of his fellow scouts even take video of the guys they scout, and he thinks they can learn something.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
By the way you are not the 1st 10yo 's dad who had weird ideas. One guy was from a country were cricket was the big deal and he tried to apply a Bowler to BB pitching.

I wouldn't characterize advocating Greg Maddux's mechanics as "weird ideas".

quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:
I'm interested in seeing a pitcher who circles up AND creates a W, M, high or low elbow....do you have any clean clear video you can send to me so I can post it here? YouTube is useless....I need to be able to download the clip. Min 30fps, prefer 60fps.

I have no problem pointing out the Maddux does not circle up in the clip above.

Instead, he drops his PAS hand to his PAS hip and then goes pretty much straight up into the high-cocked position.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
When the hands break the arm circles downward until the elbows come up to shoulder height. I am assuming that is his M. The fore arms are hanging in a downward position for a flash of a second before the glove arm and throwing arm reach the power position.

Have you even looked at the frames from the Maddux clip that I posted above?

He clearly doesn't do what you describe above.

For instance, the elbows DO NOT come up to shoulder height.

You need to reconcile your ideas with what great pros like Greg Maddux actually do.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The arm is in a relaxed state until the throwing hand is at max power position.

The power position as described in most books is a myth. Greg Maddux clearly doesn't reach it.

Instead, below is what Greg Maddux actually does.



Notice the elbows well below the level of the shoulders rather than even with them.

Pain he does not come set in this abbreviated clip series. Where is the hand break ?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
At a point where the arm starts forward is when the ligaments are stressed.

Technically, the stress starts when the shoulders start to rotate. That's what causes the arm to come forward.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The whole point of getting elbows to shoulder height is to reduce stress.

How exactly is that accomplished.

If that is the case, then why don't Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson do it?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
We always referred to inverted goal posts as well.

Guys who like Chris Carpenter and BJ Ryan do this are at an increased risk of both elbow and shoulder problems.

http://www.pitchingclips.com/videos/roger_clemens.htm

There is no way to discuss with someone who is out to provr something before he proves it. Couldn' pull Madux up but here is Roger. Look at the clip from hand break. Not that you can see with your conclusions already formed.

Nice shoulder high elbows circular break, inverted goal post but of course you don't see thsi or maybe Roger is a flake .

Pain what about the flex in the arm when the ball is way behind the shoulder and the elbow ? Do you think that might have a small part in arm problems ?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
http://www.pitchingclips.com/videos/roger_clemens.htm

There is no way to discuss with someone who is out to provr something before he proves it. Couldn' pull Madux up but here is Roger. Look at the clip from hand break. Not that you can see with your conclusions already formed.

I don't see an "M" in either of these clips. Instead, I see a "W". Notice how his PAS elbow never gets above the level of his shoulders (and gets to the level of his shoulder but then drops as his PAS upper arm externally rotates).

I do see more circle-up in these clips than in the clips of Maddux.





If you look at the clips of Clemens over time, his W gets more pronounced as his PAS elbow stays lower.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Nice shoulder high elbows circular break, inverted goal post but of course you don't see thsi or maybe Roger is a flake .

Clemens never gets to this inverted goal post position...





I think that explains why he's been healthier than Chris Carpenter or BJ Ryan.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain what about the flex in the arm when the ball is way behind the shoulder and the elbow ? Do you think that might have a small part in arm problems ?

Do you mean like this?





This is the moment of maximum load on the UCL (aka Valgus stress). However, every pitcher's arm does this, but to varying degrees.

What matters is what the forearm is doing at this moment; whether it's pronating or supinating.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain he does not come set in this abbreviated clip series. Where is the hand break ?

Here are all the images in the clip...

- Greg Maddux Clip (3B View)

I truly adore the painguy key words and phrases---"I think"---"My friend"---etc etal---tells me a lot

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain what about the flex in the arm when the ball is way behind the shoulder and the elbow ? Do you think that might have a small part in arm problems ?

Do you mean like this?



This is the moment of maximum load on the UCL (aka Valgus stress). However, every pitcher's arm does this, but to varying degrees.

What matters is what the forearm is doing at this moment; whether it's pronating or supinating.

How do you pronate in this position? I tried to get in this position and pronate my forearm but I could not move it more then a couple of degrees. On the flip side I found it easy to slightly supinate.
Are there examples of pitchers in this position pronating. This position (pronation) feels very awkward and Im not sure this position is probable at this point in the delivery.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
How do you pronate in this position? I tried to get in this position and pronate my forearm but I could not move it more then a couple of degrees. On the flip side I found it easy to slightly supinate.
Are there examples of pitchers in this position pronating. This position (pronation) feels very awkward and Im not sure this position is probable at this point in the delivery.

To pronate through this point, you have to be maximally supinated just before this point. Visualize throwing the back of you hand at the target (e.g. showing the ball to 1B at the high cocked position for a RHP) and then pronating just before the release point.

This will give you good arm-side run on the ball.

The problem with being pronated at the high cocked position (e.g. showing the ball to 2B/CF) is that you then have to supinate through the release point to get the palm facing the target. This focuses the load on the UCL.

Pain you are harder to pin down than a greased pig.

It is obvious that you won't see what is in front of your face.

Also if you look at the bottom left clip od RC I posted you will see the back of his hand and the hand rotated towards 2B. Not that I think it matters a whole lot.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Pain you are harder to pin down than a greased pig.

It is obvious that you won't see what is in front of your face.

Also if you look at the bottom left clip od RC I posted you will see the back of his hand and the hand rotated towards 2B. Not that I think it matters a whole lot.

At the moment that Roger Clemens' PAS forearm is vertical in this clip, his palm is clearly facing 3B, not 2B.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The arm is in a relaxed state until the throwing hand is at max power position.

It's not clear to me what point in the delivery/arm motion you're talking about. Can you explain what this position is and how it creates max power? TIA!