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Hall Of Fame Pitcher Tom Seaver Did It Well ...

M Mojojojo10+ posts
Thought this might be of interest ...

http://www.stevenellis.com/

April 18, 2006
Hall Of Fame Pitcher Tom Seaver Did It Well, But He's An Exception -- An Anomaly, Really. It's Just Not Good Practice Or Sound Pitching Mechanics. See What It Is -- And Why It's Bad For Your Pitching.
Tom Seaver, at right, did it. And he's in the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, N.Y. Robin Roberts did it, too, and he was one heck of a major league pitcher. But they're the exception. Not the rule. And when it comes to baseball pitching mechanics, "drop and drive" -- the mechanical term used to describe their pitching motion, where their post leg collapses (bends significantly) instead of "staying tall," in the position shown above -- is not great practice.

Fortunately, modern pitching video analysis -- and the ability to slow down baseball pitchers' deliveries on high-speed video -- has given coaches visually sound keys of a quality pitching motion. Even more, it's enabled coaches and pitcher to see why drop and drive is inefficient.

"In the drop and drive, what you'll see is a pitcher gets into his posting position, and then in the next movement, his whole body lowers into the mound," says Coach Bill Thurston, head baseball coach at Amherst (Mass.) College. "This causes the pitcher to come out late toward the plate, and a loss of "force." What you want to see out of power pitchers is that once that stride leg starts lowering, the lower body really goes fast, and they land on a flexed leg. As they rotate the trunk, the front leg braces up, and then the hips and upper body come over it.

"Well, the drop-and-driver never comes over a braced front leg. The old drop-and-drive guys -- Tom Seaver and Robin Roberts -- both of those guys had huge legs, big butts and were real strong in the lower body, and they didn’t brace up with their stride leg.

"Instead, they transferred their weight using a hop. Most drop-and-drivers who are young kids (or grown men, for that matter) aren't strong enough to do the hop step at the end to keep their weight going forward with the pitch.

The drop and drive is definitely something you wouldn't want to teach. Nobody pitches that way anymore, because in the drop and drive, you don't really use your body. It doesn't allow the core muscles of your body to get up and over a braced front leg. And it creates a very unfavorable effect on the rotator cuff muscles, because the arm is going forward but the body isn't.

True power pitchers bring their back hip through and brace up, then the body comes with the arm. For this reason, the drop and drive is extremely stressful on the rotator cuff and back shoulder muscles."
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C cap_nMember
Posted by The Complete Pitcher® on April 19, 2006 | Permalink | Comments (0) | TrackBack (0)
quote:
"In the drop and drive, what you'll see is a pitcher gets into his posting position, and then in the next movement, his whole body lowers into the mound," says Coach Bill Thurston, head baseball coach at Amherst (Mass.) College. "This causes the pitcher to come out late toward the plate, and a loss of "force."
Eek Eek Eek


captain
B bbscout1,000+ posts
Tom Seaver

MoJo, The hop that Seaver had happened when the ball was crossing the plate, and well after he released the ball.He just stood tall on his back leg then let his weight lower on to his back leg. He then pushed off and had great hip rotation and then released the ball.

Seaver used his body very well and this clip shows him doing it. Greg Maddux is not a so-called drop and drive pitcher and he does not throw over a braced front leg either. The guys who throw over a braced front leg have shorter strides. The guys who have longer strides don't throw over a braced front leg.
M Mojojojo10+ posts
There are alot of things happen after the ball is released, including a good follow through. Does this mean that since the ball has left your hand that this is unnecesary? I say no. I say that I would tend to agree with the assessment (none other than Bill Thruston). This is part and parcel of a good follow thru of a drop and driver.

My .015,

Ed
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
Steve Smile

The free pitching tips blog is now on my favorite places and that site has wealth of knowledge that I highly recommend to any serious player. The advanced pitching philosophies really looked Most Excellent.

Drive captain We are all just passengers !
We love the complimentary show that comes with the flight, all aboard ! peace, Shep
LTBB47LTBB47100+ posts
I think that most pitchers should learn a lot from Nolan Ryan. The first 2 books I read when I started to pitch in HS were both on and about Ryan. While nobody is going to replicate what he did "drop & drive" we can definitely learn a ton from his delivery.
I am trying to make my pitchers understand how to drive their legs down and toward the plate. Not a significant drop, but a change in CG Center of Gravity, and a driving of the legs down and toward the plate.
Why does Ryan drop and drive? Why do I want my kids to move their legs/hips to drive down and toward the plate? Because that makes the ball move lower in the strike zone.
A ton of my pitchers in my career suffered from the same problem, they couldn’t work the ball down enough in the strike zone to get out good HS hitters. They would consistently leave pitches from the mid-thigh to the stomach. As we all know good hitters love balls in that area that have little tilt (flat). Lowering the body reduces the height and trajectory of pitches so that they can start getting balls to the mid-thigh and lower.
I have found that it is best to try and get these type of pitchers to slow down their delivery and work on elongating the front directional part of their delivery. The back side must move down and glide to the plate and this is where good, great, and superior pitchers are separated.
All pitchers are different and throw in funny ways sometimes. We faced a kid yesterday that was 3-3 ½ feet off of his center line open. The key is to figure out a way to make them throw strikes first. Once they can throw strikes then you have to make them figure out that most hitters struggle with pitches down and they must figure out a way to get the ball down in the zone.
M Mojojojo10+ posts
quote:
work on elongating the front directional part of their delivery. The back side must move down and glide to the plate and this is where good, great, and superior pitchers are separated



I dunno, to me elongating and trying to produce a forceful rotation are mutually exclusive. I personally find it difficult to rotate if I'm too long.

Regards,

Mojo
C cap_nMember
Mojojojo-

quote:
MoJo....He [Seaver] just stood tall on his back leg then let his weight lower on to his back leg. He then pushed off and had great hip rotation and then released the ball.
Do you believe, or see this mechanic when Seaver pitches?

And to go along with the elongating the front side, if LTBB47 is talking about a longer stride, then you're correct...a longer stride makes rotating the hips into foot plant more difficult.


captain
M Mojojojo10+ posts
Cap'n,
I would never describe or even mention what Seaver is doing in the same sentence with "standing tall". Instead I would describe what he is doing as "sitting" as he is moving out. As his body begins moving, his center of gravity is dropping to the point where his upper right leg is parallel to the ground.

Truly a powerful rotater. I can't think of anyone with a decent fastball who doesn't rotate their hips forcefully.

Regards,

Mojo
G gametime2410+ posts
Personally, my pitching style is drop and drive. It works very well for me, and I have been told it helps hide the ball from the batter, and it makes the ball seem like it has a little more pop on it. But the reason it works for me so well is because of my thick lower frame and strong legs. Never once have I had arm problems, and I see nothing wrong with it.
M Mojojojo10+ posts
Would never argue that its a bad thing. Maybe its me, would love to hear other opinions on this, but to me Seaver looks like another rotater who is incorporating alot of leg into it.

I find it hard to believe that he's losing power using this style if you consider he's throwing 95+. How hard can you expect him to chuck w/o this style? He's 6'1/2", thats not exceptionally tall. I say phooey...
C cap_nMember
Mojojojo-
quote:
I would never describe or even mention what Seaver is doing in the same sentence with "standing tall". Instead I would describe what he is doing as "sitting" as he is moving out.
Great observation! He presents an aggressive non-stop, start behind the rubber, to going down the ramp motion that there is, very similar to N. Ryan. Seaver does not stand tall...then lower his weight on his back leg...then push off. Video clearly disproves claims [by House and others] that he comes out late to the plate. Is Seaver a drop-and-drive, or does he resemble most other pitchers’ initial mechanics, but likes to lower his CG more than most by landing and bracing on a very bent stride leg/knee?


captain
Last edited by cap_n
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by cap_n:
Mojojojo-
quote:
I would never describe or even mention what Seaver is doing in the same sentence with "standing tall". Instead I would describe what he is doing as "sitting" as he is moving out.
Great observation! He presents an aggressive non-stop, start behind the rubber, to going down the ramp motion that there is, very similar to N. Ryan. Seaver does not stand tall...then lower his weight on his back leg...then push off. Video clearly disproves claims [by House and others] that he comes out late to the plate. Is Seaver a drop-and-drive, or does he resemble most other pitchers’ initial mechanics, but likes to lower his CG more than most by landing and bracing on a very bent stride leg/knee?


captain



Would like to see the video. The video that I have and the video that I have seen of Seaver shows him starting tall then lower his weight on to his back leg and push off. He braces on a bent front knee because he is a long strider who can still get to the flat of his front foot. Maddux is much the same with the long stride and throwing over a bent front knee. They both have excellent hip rotation too.Short striders have a tendancy to pitch over a stiff front leg.
C cap_nMember
bbscout/Mojojojo-


I personally don't see Seaver with a stride that’s too long...reason is, he hasn't pushed (catapulted/airborne) off the mound and he lands on a stride leg that's bent a fraction more than 90 deg. This in itself is pulling the stride foot back in which shortens the stride. As well, his post foot hasn't left the original posting location...it just flips over as his hips open into solid foot plant. From all of the video I've seen, Seaver rolls his stride knee and foot (from right to left) into solid foot plant.

To me, Seaver prefers to throw from a lower stance. He rides the posting leg (as in knee to ankle) down into the ramp (lowering his CG) closer than most. If his stride leg foot was any farther out in front, I don't think he'd be able to rotate his hips and upper torso (through ball release) as well as he does in this clip.


captain
C cap_nMember
bbscout-

quote:
I don't think that I ever said "too long".
This is just an observation by me...it was not directed at anything you said. The only way to tell for sure would be to actually measure his stride. Stride length can be very inhibitive depending on other mechanics being used. But along this line, even if Seaver stretched his stride out 6” more inches, he would land on a noticeable larger angle behind the knee…not a stiff leg, simply a stretched out leg like N. Ryan that would still make it difficult to rotate the hips well.


captain
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
For as low as he gets it looks like a nice long stride, nice landing. The lower you get the longer the stride almost has to be and the more bend required in the front knee. His back knee almost touches!

Real good clips of a great pitcher. Kind of forgot just how low he got with his knee. Didn't Sandy Koufax pitch this same way?
Last edited by PGStaff
C cap_nMember
PGStaff_

Koufax sure starts out down the ramp like Seaver and drops low, but not as low as Seaver. Koufax steps out considerably farther than Seaver though, and ultimately ends up throwing with a very high arm slot/angle. Again, I believe Seaver’s average stride length is dictated by the support needed to drop his CG this low.

Maybe I'm missing something, but you guys claim that Seaver has a longer stride. I'm 6'1" (bare foot). If I obtain the posture that Seaver does at foot plant...posting leg stretched out, knee 2" off the ground, outside hip bone (belt line) 23" off the ground, my stride shin and thigh forming an angle slightly larger than 90deg and my posting foot turned over and my shoe toe approximately 4" in front of the rubber like Seaver, my stride is ~5'9". The only way to make my stride longer is to stick my stride foot out farther. And given the very low CG, I don't think I could support any more span between the posting foot and the stride foot. But the again, I'm a weakling Wink


captain
Last edited by cap_n
LTBB47LTBB47100+ posts
Pitcher's Mound
In the middle of the square is a low artificial hill called the pitcher's mound. On the mound there is a white rubber slab, called the pitcher's plate or commonly the rubber, six inches (15 cm) front-to-back and two feet (61 cm) across, the front of which is exactly sixty feet six inches (18.4 m) from the rear point of home plate. This peculiar distance was set by the rulemakers in 1893, not due to a clerical or surveying error as popular myth has it, but purposely (as noted earlier). On a baseball field, the pitcher's mound is a raised section in the middle of the diamond where the pitcher stands when throwing the pitch.

In Major League Baseball, a regulation mound is 18 feet (5.5 m) in diameter, with the center 59 feet (18.0 m) from the rear point of home plate, on the line between home plate and second base. The front edge of the pitcher's plate or rubber is 18 inches (45.7 cm) behind the center of the mound, making it 60 feet 6 inches (18.4 m) from the rear point of home plate. Six inches (15.2 cm) in front of the pitcher's rubber the mound begins to slope downward. The top of the rubber is to be no higher than ten inches (25.4 cm) above home plate. From 1903 through 1968 this height limit was set at 15 inches, but was often slightly higher, sometimes as high as 20 inches (50.8 cm), especially for teams that emphasized pitching, such as the Los Angeles Dodgers, who were reputed to have the highest mound in the majors.

A pitcher will push off the rubber with his foot in order to gain velocity toward home plate when pitching. In addition, a higher mound generally favors the pitcher over a lower mound. With the height advantage, the pitcher gains more leverage and can put more downward velocity on the ball, making it more difficult for the batter to strike the ball squarely with the bat. The lowering of the mound in 1969 was intended to "increase the batting" once again, as pitching had become increasingly dominant, reaching its peak the prior year; 1968 is known among baseball historians as "The Year of the Pitcher". This restrictive rule apparently did its job, contributing to the hitting surge of modern baseball.

A pitcher's mound is difficult for groundskeepers to maintain. On youth and amateur baseball fields, the mound may be much different than the rulebook definition due to erosion and repair attempts. Even in the major leagues, each mound gains its own character, as pitchers are allowed to kick away pieces of dirt in their way, thereby sculpting the mound a bit to their preference.
LTBB47LTBB47100+ posts
quote:
A pitcher will push off the rubber with his foot in order to gain velocity toward home plate when pitching. In addition, a higher mound generally favors the pitcher over a lower mound. With the height advantage, the pitcher gains more leverage and can put more downward velocity on the ball, making it more difficult for the batter to strike the ball squarely with the bat. The lowering of the mound in 1969 was intended to "increase the batting" once again, as pitching had become increasingly dominant, reaching its peak the prior year; 1968 is known among baseball historians as "The Year of the Pitcher". This restrictive rule apparently did its job, contributing to the hitting surge of modern baseball.
LTBB47LTBB47100+ posts
My guess is that Seaver was a drop and drive pitcher in order to get the ball down in the strike zone with the high mound early in his career and found success with it. He uses his legs so well and lowers his arm angle with the "drop" which is more of a strong driving of the backside. If you look at the videos he gets his body in great positions.

Seaver Stats: What a great first 10 seasons.
Now that is a workhorse. 35+ starts, 270 Inn.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/seaveto01.shtml

I wish more pitchers would learn to use their legs to move the ball lower in the strike zone.
Anyway Seaver looked while doing it was extremely successful.

Justin Stringer
http://www.DoItRightBaseball.com
High School Baseball Web Sponsor
C cap_nMember
LTBB47

If anything, Seaver releases from a very low arm angle from a very low body position yielding very little downward trajectory. That may explain the ball staying low in the zone.
As for dropping and driving, in the classical sense of the term, no, he does not drop and then drive out. Instead, Seaver uses a lot of early forward torso movement to get a lot of forward momentum going. Like MOJOJOJO said, he sits a lot during this forward move….he just happens to sit a lot more than most ML pitchers, and he rides that sit a long time…to the point that his posting ankle is on the ground and his posting knee is almost touching the ground and his stride leg is bent to 90 deg at foot plant. The majority of the time he’s moving down the ramp, his post leg is busy turning the knee down into the ground, not pushing the body out.

And you're correct.......SEAVER WAS DA MAN!


captain
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
I believe that Seaver and other pitchers who get low and release low benefit not so much from being able to throw the ball low in the zone but from being able to throw the ball high in the zone more effectively. Tall pitchers with shorter strides tend to work down in the zone very well. The downward angle tends to induce more ground balls.

Power pitchers with a low release point are able to come very close to throwing a rising fastball on a pitch at the top of the zone and are actually able to throw a rising fastball on a pitch a little bit up out of the zone.

My guess is that a lot of Seaver's Ks came on high pitches that hitters swung way under.

Just speculation here but it looks from the clip like the bent knee helped with decelleration and made it easier on the arm, not harder. Bracing against a stiff front leg seems to help velocity a bit but it would seem to be a bit harder on the arm. In the end it comes down to whatever works best for an individual pitcher. Pitchers are taught by the hitters what works and what doesn't work for them.
Last edited by CADad
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Its,
As a kid I always wanted to be like Tom! However, I never got to actually see him pitch so I'm just guessing. I always thought my motion was just like Seaver's, then during Legion ball one year they took movies of the pitchers. I was shocked to see that my motion resembled Don Sutton's (who was a short strider) much more than it did Seaver's. Unfortunately my motion resembled Sutton's much more than my fastball did. Smile

I ran into old HS buddy a few weeks ago and we were talking about it. He remembered my throwing over the top but he remembered Sutton's motion a bit better having played with him in spring training a long time ago but still more recently.
Last edited by CADad

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